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- Jan 31, 2010
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The biggest mistake was made when those who supported the EU pretended that all European cultures were the same. It should have been Free Trade and nothing more. This was easily predicted, and will not get better.Yeah, can't say we'll agree on Tsipras. I would say it is possible to agree on the fact that it's real test for how 'Europe' has incrementally built itself legally over the past few decades. It's revealed itself to make no sense from where I'm sitting. :shrug:
How ironic that all the ire towards Greece is being directed at those having to deal with the consequences of the mismanagement of the Greek economy, rather than at those who put Greece in this position, i.e. the Greek bankers, the corrupt politicians who ran up the debt and nationalised the private debt, placing the bankers IOU notes on the plates of the ordinary Greek citizens, and the corrupt EU/ECB practices who closed their eyes to the fraud being committed.Hopefully, Greece's people will vote for the EU/ECB/IMF package and repudiate the Prime Minister's wishes. While the Tsipiras government will have inflicted significant damage on the Greek economy and Greece's people, acceptance of the package and a restoration of assistance could mitigate the damage.
And then what? Accept the conditions and then see the debt continue to rise, the austerity continue to ramp up, destroying more jobs and livelihoods, and the guarantee that the economy never recovers? How will saying yes be of any advantage to the Greeks?Finally, I retain confidence in what Europe has built and the Euro currency. What has been built can and will survive the impulsive and destructive actions of a radical actor. And if the Greek people resoundingly repudiate him in a referendum, his days in office could be numbered and a new election could sweep many of the radicals who inflicted unnecessary hardship on an already-suffering population out of office.
All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.
Syriza has caused none of it.
Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.
The past accumulation of debt was built up by earlier governments. The current banking crisis was solely the result of Prime Minister Tsiparas' choice. It never had to happen. With a mature Greek leadership, it would not have happened.
Tell that to the Greeks who lost their jobs in the first 4 years of the crisis and then the further losses in this last year..
If a credit company hands over a no-limit credit card to someone who is known to be feckless and irresponsible and that credit card is tied to the savings of many other people who work hard and have built up savings - you think the credit card company is not criminally responsible for the ensuing problems?.
We have this thing called "due diligence" we adopted it from US law (I'm assuming you're American) after the 1933 Securities Act
Why would you make it known to the world that your credit investigation and due diligence processes were completely lacking? Especially when your own fortunes and reputations in a one way project are tied completely to your reputation?
Tell that to the Greeks who lost their jobs in the first 4 years of the crisis and then the further losses in this last year..
Individual misfortune does not change the facts of the matter.
Lol...Now your'e just making up excuses as you go along. Other EU Member Nations had no problem adhering to the strict guidelines in the Treaty. Greece gets no sympathy from me and shouldn't get any sympathy from the Troika.
Nor the addage that you can't get blood out of a stone. The current austerity has collapsed revenues and now they want even more austerity. It makes no sense
Well of-course you do.
If Syrzia says jump, Socialist say how high. The Greek people already voted, they elected or they thought they elected a leader. Not someone who's looking for a way to pass off his responsibility by holding a referendum.
He's looking to cover his ass Politically.
But then again, this was the same guy who tried to extort his way out of this mess by claiming Germany owed Greece 300 Million euro's in " Nazi war crime " fines unpaid.
Here's the current state of play. Here are three compelling reasons why the Troika needs to change its direction:
1. The strategy the Troika are insisting Greece pursue has increased the debt, destroyed any possibility of Greece recovering growth and thrown millions of ordinary Greeks, none of whom did anything wrong, into poverty. And that's not just my opinion, it's the IMF's own opinion. They admit that their strategy will not pull Greece out of crisis.
IMF: austerity measures would still leave Greece with unsustainable debt | World news | The Guardian
2. The Troika's attitude to Greece owes more to politics than economics. The IMF's attitude towards unrepayable debts being run up by Ukraine stands in sharp contrast to its hardline attitude towards Greece. Would anyone like to hazard a guess at what political considerations can explain such a two-faced approach?
IMF: Greece vs. Ukraine
3. Greece's exit from the Eurozone risks creating both economic and political contagion that will threaten the entire Euro project, if not the whole EU future. It isn't Greece that has most to lose from Grexit, and that's not the opinion of an unreconstructed Euro-lefty like me. This from the bastion of Neo-liberalism, The Daily Telegraph.
Europe ready for Grexit contagion as Athens gets closer to Russian cash - Telegraph
Only the rich ones. The poor are taxed at source, as in the vast majority of EU states.1. Ordinary Greeks did quite a bit wrong. No one pays his/her taxes in Greece.
2. Ukraine's situation is not at all comparable. If the Greeks were fighting for their freedom instead of fighting to avoid paying their bills it might be different.
So, you admit it's about political will, not economics. That undermines the Troika's entire case, since they insist it's not a political move.
No one pays his/her taxes in Greece.
A lot of people people do. A lot of people with good incomes underreport.
Ukraine is political. Greece is not.
I'll have to disagree. Based on living there for three years I'd be surprised to find a single Greek who pays what he really owes. They are wonderful people, but they don't believe taxes in Greece are legitimately demanded, and they see evasion as their right.
So, you're saying they're Libertarians?
Where I agree in principle, also on Syriza not having had any hand in bringing the state to where it wound up, I disagree on the no-responsibility take of Tzipras and Varoufakis in this current stalemate.All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.
Syriza has caused none of it.
By the latest count it's going to be a "duo". The IMF is unlikely to concern itself any further with a bunch of crooks that publicly declare not repaying any debt to it anymore.Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.
I'd be surprised to find a single Greek who pays what he really owes.
Perhaps we were both a bit unclear. You had said, "No one pays his/her taxes in Greece." I guess you meant no one pays all their taxes.
No one pays even a reasonable share.
How many Americans cheat on their taxes?
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