Ben K.
DP Veteran
- Joined
- May 2, 2010
- Messages
- 4,717
- Reaction score
- 1,981
- Location
- Dublin, Ireland
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
He may have thought the referendum was a bad idea or the public not informed enough (I haven't actually found where he says this yet) when powerful actors were not obvious to the people but I think all cards are out right now. As a Greek, you wouldn't be able to ignore all the forces at play right now.
Would you like to explain what was achieved by the previous Greek governments cooperating with the Troika? The debt rose, the economy shrank, mass unemployment, public employees unpaid. The current deal on offer, without debt relief, means exactly the same thing.
He was elected based on promises he made which was impossible to deliver. The IMF holds all the cards here so its best they give in to their demands. Im not saying the IMF are good guys either but they are the lesser of two evils at this point.Greece has to decide between two radically different and incompatible positions. Tsipras has concluded that they can't have it both ways given the bullish and vindictive position of the Troika, so they have to choose, as a nation, and it's a choice that didn't appear to be inevitable when he was elected.
Excellent analysis, and this is the reality that the Greeks are facing. It's horrific, but in comparison with the alternative, isn't it inevitable?
Caving into the Troika would defer this exact same scenario for what? Three months? Six? Twelve? The Troikas demanded measures are not new. They are the same measures that have been applied by Samaras, Pikrammenos, Papademos, Papandreou to what effect?
The debt has increased under every premier, the unemployment rate risen, poverty increased. Why should anyone have any confidence that even if Tsipras conceded every point, that the Greek economy would ever turn around?
What do people really expect Greece to do? And what do they think Greece would benefit by doing so?
The Troika knew Greece entered into the Union under false pretenses ?
Can you prove that or are you just making it up ?
Have you tried telling a Greek he's a 'Latin' recently? I think a mountza is the least you'd receive.My problem is that, I have worked with Greeks and I know the latin mindset..
Have you tried telling a Greek he's a 'Latin' recently? I think a mountza is the least you'd receive.
I see the institutions are starting to reap what they have sown.
Greece debt crisis: Global stock markets slide - BBC News
And tomorrow or in a few days the markets will go up. Happens all the time,..
With no long-term damage? We'll see. Spain and Portugal's bond yields are also rising.
I don't know about where you are, but for the first time ever I've heard Spaniards questioning the sense in remaining in the Euro. Never thought that would happen.
I posted the link earlier in the thread. His reasons why a referendum was not appropriate are all the ones aimed at him now.
“You know better than me that if the Greek Prime Minister himself tries to have the people face such dilemmas, the real default will be inevitable, and the Greek banks and the Greek economy will collapse before we even reach the voting booth. Just because of the possibility that the people may face such a dilemma, they might vote “No.”
The current Prime Minister of Greece had then accused Papandreou of despair and had characterized his announcement of a referendum as a “disaster for the Greek economy” and a “harbinger of bankruptcy,” considering it a trick used by the Greek government in its effort to buy more time in power. And he had come into the following conclusion: “The most democratic way of expressing the popular will is elections, not a referendum.”
With no long-term damage? We'll see. Spain and Portugal's bond yields are also rising.
I don't know about where you are, but for the first time ever I've heard Spaniards questioning the sense in remaining in the Euro. Never thought that would happen.
While the Tsipiras government will have inflicted significant damage on the Greek economy and Greece's people, acceptance of the package and a restoration of assistance could mitigate the damage.
All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.
Syriza has caused none of it.
Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.
What Tsipras Had Stated About the Greek Referendum in 2011 | GreekReporter.com
There's a lot to be said - from the old cliche "a week is a long time in politics" to "maybe he's changed views due to actions / information he had no prior knowledge of" etc but right now, as I think it would have been 4 years ago before Germany and France stopped the referendum - it's the right thing to do; whatever we think of Tsipras and his politics.
Juncker is saying it's a referendum on whether Greece remains in the EU. Not helpful and immediately makes a liar of Merkel who this afternoon said that no external influence is going to be applied to the Greek's decision. This is truly showing the EU at its worst, most bungling, most disingenuous and anti-democratic. What a shambles!
I agree a referendum may be necessary - it might have been necessary for countries joining the Euro in the first place!
However it is not 4 years to mull it over. It's a week since it's a different package
The latter part is something we won't have common ground on however yeah, a few more countries would have been better off with referendums but as I remember a few years ago, there was only pro joining publicity being shown. There pro publicity and buildup had been going on since the days of the ERM and tracking each other's currencies.
As for the 4 years - Greece didn't have 4 years to the latest ultimatum.
~ It's revealed itself to make no sense from where I'm sitting. :shrug:
Your first post to me intimated that this was all Tsipras' fault but having read further, I get it now, the previous years of sliding into a vast and never ending debt to creditors, the transition of Greece into a bankrupt state was not a crisis?
How is the ECB, IMF and EU " criminally responsible " for Greece's decision to spend beyond its means ?
Because they " knew " ? If they knew why wasn't Greece's debt downgraded sooner than 2009 ?
It was bad management; that is not necessarily a crisis.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?