Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

Andalublue · Jun 28, 2015

Jack Hays said:
That is correct, and demonstrates your claim was wrong.

Yes, it was. Responded to your post from tapatalk. Fair cop. However, Samaras has had an entire career intimately linked with Nea Demokratia, one of the two principal culprits of the Greek/Goldman Sachs/ECB fraud designed to allow the creation of the Eurozone. His handling of the poisoned chalice he picked up in 2012 was incompetent. While there were minor statistical improvements for a couple of quarters during his tenancy, that period showed worsening standards of living, the toleration of rampant far-right street violence, unpaid public service salaries, bungled privatisations and a decline of public confidence, and yet you still present him as some kind of misunderstood genius.

Get real. Your adoration of him smacks of pointless partisanship. "He's right-wing; he must be okay."

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

Andalublue said:
Yes, it was. Responded to your post from tapatalk. Fair cop. However, Samaras has had an entire career intimately linked with Nea Demokratia, one of the two principal culprits of the Greek/Goldman Sachs/ECB fraud designed to allow the creation of the Eurozone. His handling of the poisoned chalice he picked up in 2012 was incompetent. While there were minor statistical improvements for a couple of quarters during his tenancy, that period showed worsening standards of living, the toleration of rampant far-right street violence, unpaid public service salaries, bungled privatisations and a decline of public confidence, and yet you still present him as some kind of misunderstood genius.

Get real. Your adoration of him smacks of pointless partisanship. "He's right-wing; he must be okay."

Wrong again. Samaras left ND in 1992 and did not rejoin the party until 2004. He had no role in creation of the Eurozone or Greece's entry into it. As PM he represented (and could still represent again) Greece's best hope.

Andalublue · Jun 28, 2015

Manc Skipper said:
" ‘This is our political alternative to neoliberalism and to the neoliberal process of European integration: democracy, more democracy and even deeper democracy,” said Alexis Tsipras on 18 January 2014 in a debate organised by the Dutch Socialist party in Amersfoort. Now the moment of deepest democracy looms, as the Greek people go to the polls on Sunday to vote for or against the next round of austerity.

Unfortunately, Sunday’s choice will be between endless austerity and immediate chaos. As comfortable as it is to argue from the sidelines that maybe Grexit in the medium term won’t hurt as much as 30 years’ drag on GDP from swingeing repayments, no sane person wants either. The vision that Syriza swept to power on was that if you spoke truth to the troika plainly and in broad daylight, they would have to acknowledge that austerity was suffocating Greece.
They have acknowledged no such thing. Whatever else one could say about the handling of the crisis, and whatever becomes of the euro, Sunday will be the moment that unstoppable democracy meets immovable supra-democracy. The Eurogroup has already won: the Greek people can vote any way they like – but what they want, they cannot have..."

See Manc, I don't believe they have won. I think they have shot themselves in the foot big time. They have engineered Grexit because they don't wish to be seen to negotiate in good faith with socialists. The Asian markets, which don't much care whether you call yourself left, right or Martian, are voting with their exchange rates and the Euro is heading for Dollar parity pretty sharpish-like.

Andalublue · Jun 28, 2015

Jack Hays said:
Wrong again. Samaras left ND in 1992 and did not rejoin the party until 2004. He had no role in creation of the Eurozone or Greece's entry into it. As PM he represented (and could still represent again) Greece's best hope.

Oh, the confidence of wiki-surfers!

The only people that drew confidence from his premiership were the goose-steppers of Golden Dawn...and the IMF.

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

Andalublue said:
See Manc, I don't believe they have won. I think they have shot themselves in the foot big time. They have engineered Grexit because they don't wish to be seen to negotiate in good faith with socialists. The Asian markets, which don't much care whether you call yourself left, right or Martian, are voting with their exchange rates and the Euro is heading for Dollar parity pretty sharpish-like.

The President of France is himself a socialist.

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

Andalublue said:
Oh, the confidence of wiki-surfers!

The only people that drew confidence from his premiership were the goose-steppers of Golden Dawn...and the IMF.

I lived in Athens 2003-2006 and still have many friends there. Samaras is widely admired and respected.

Andalublue · Jun 28, 2015

Jack Hays said:
I lived in Athens 2003-2006 and still have many friends there. Samaras is widely admired and respected.

By about 20% of the population, yes.

Listen, let's wait and see what next Sunday's referendum shows. If the Greeks vote 'yes', then your man is probably the only figure that can aspire to the premiership. There will be new elections, so he'll get his chance. What will make things really complicated is if the Greeks vote 'yes' on Sunday and then vote Syriza back into power a month or so later. That would be cruel on everyone.

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

Andalublue said:
By about 20% of the population, yes.

Listen, let's wait and see what next Sunday's referendum shows. If the Greeks vote 'yes', then your man is probably the only figure that can aspire to the premiership. There will be new elections, so he'll get his chance. What will make things really complicated is if the Greeks vote 'yes' on Sunday and then vote Syriza back into power a month or so later. That would be cruel on everyone.

Fair enough.

Andalublue · Jun 28, 2015

Jack Hays said:
The crisis was created by Tsipras.

Sure it was! :lamo

I guess Samaras, Papandreou, Papademos, Karamanlis and Mitsotakis had nothing to do with the Grecian fraud. Still less Goldman Sachs, Draghi, Trichet, Duisenberg, Marín, Santer, Delors. No, no one who was involved in the Greek fraud bears any responsibility, only Tsipras and Varoufakis.

Fenton · Jun 28, 2015

Andalublue said:
A fact known to every member of the Troika throughout, and a fraud perpetrated by the people the Troika are now lining up to attempt a bloodless coup. Syriza didn't even exist when this fraud was perpetrated.

The Troika knew Greece entered into the Union under false pretenses ?

Can you prove that or are you just making it up ?

Once they were a member nation they and their bonds were given the same status as other EU member nations and that meant they could borrow for almost nothing.

They were distributing worthless debt that had the same rating as German bonds.

And how is holding Greece accountable for its excessive spending and corruption a " bloodless coup " again ?

And Syrzia IS responsible for this growing into a unmanageable situation. He's responsible for his rhetoric, for making promises he couldnt keep and for perpetuating the narrative that " austerity " and not unsustainable deficit spending and corruption is the cause of their problems.

Tsipras promised MORE spending, he promised to hire back thousands of Public Sector workers.

I'm just curious of where he thought the money was going to come from to accomplish this ? I doubt he gave that very important detail a second thought.

They elected a left wing radical activists, not a leader and now they're paying for it.

SlevinKelevra · Jun 28, 2015

Jack Hays said:
I lived in Athens 2003-2006 and still have many friends there. Samaras is widely admired and respected.

My wife is a Greek (born) native citizen, and we have lived there 2-4 weeks a year since 2008, and she lived there originally from 1975-2004.

Your claim is bunk based on polls, anecdotes, and well, evreything else that exists.

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

Andalublue said:
Sure it was! :lamo

I guess Samaras, Papandreou, Papademos, Karamanlis and Mitsotakis had nothing to do with the Grecian fraud. Still less Goldman Sachs, Draghi, Trichet, Duisenberg, Marín, Santer, Delors. No, no one who was involved in the Greek fraud bears any responsibility, only Tsipras and Varoufakis.

Others certainly created the problem. Tsipras created the crisis. Samaras had no role in either.

SlevinKelevra · Jun 28, 2015

Jack Hays said:
Others certainly created the problem. Tsipras created the crisis.

so a 180% debt to gdp ratio , with declining employment and tax receipts isn't a crisis.

LOL

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

SlevinKelevra said:
so a 180% debt to gdp ratio , with declining employment and tax receipts isn't a crisis.

LOL

It was and remains a terrible problem but there was a path to a solution. Tsipras left that path and created the crisis.

SlevinKelevra · Jun 28, 2015

Jack Hays said:
It was and remains a terrible problem but there was a path to a solution. Tsipras left that path and created the crisis.

how do you "solve" the problem when you are losing employment and wages simultaneously? where will the tax receipts come from ?

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

SlevinKelevra said:
My wife is a Greek (born) native citizen, and we have lived there 2-4 weeks a year since 2008, and she lived there originally from 1975-2004.

Your claim is bunk based on polls, anecdotes, and well, evreything else that exists.

I'm not really interested in the opinions of an annual vacationer.

SlevinKelevra · Jun 28, 2015

Jack Hays said:
I'm not really interested in the opinions of an annual vacationer.

you ignore the lifelong resident spouse.........
odd choice.

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

SlevinKelevra said:
how do you "solve" the problem when you are losing employment and wages simultaneously? where will the tax receipts come from ?

There is no other way.

SlevinKelevra · Jun 28, 2015

Jack Hays said:
There is no other way.

there is no other way than a deflationary death spiral
?

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

SlevinKelevra said:
you ignore the lifelong resident spouse.........
odd choice.

Not resident since 2004. The election of Tsipras is sufficient proof that not all Greeks understand their situation.

Jack Hays · Jun 28, 2015

SlevinKelevra said:
there is no other way than a deflationary death spiral
?

Access to Eurozone financing is imperative.

TheDemSocialist · Jun 28, 2015

Leave it Greece. Leave the group of countries in Europe dominated by an undemocratic, financial powerhouse.

Infinite Chaos · Jun 29, 2015

polgara said:
Greetings, Infinite Chaos.

As would I, and probably most of the people we both know! The only problem I can see is that governments always seem to err on the side of not causing panic by admitting problems, but I always felt if the circumstances are such that panic is possible, it's better to be a day too early than a day too late to give people time to prepare for it - it's being caught unaware that causes problems.

This I can agree, Tsipras was elected by Greeks on his platform which he has pretty much stuck to, the platform was in response to the disaster hanging over Greece due to debts and potential bankruptcy. I think a referendum making sure the country is still with him is entirely reasonable - even if I disagree his politics.

Ben K. said:
A decision like that may require a referendum. But he's denying it as being a choice on the Euro (that consequence would be the Troika's fault). And he crapped on a previous suggestion of a referendum (then, the people weren't informed enough to make that kind of a decision).

It's hard to justify it as anything but a deferral of responsibility.

I disagree, George Papandreou was pretty much ousted 4 years ago but not by Tsipras for suggesting a referendum / public vote on his rescue package but not by Tsipras. The conditions for Papandreou publicly slammed by Greece's debtors and then Tsipras turned down the $15billion rescue package on Friday which the Greek govt saw as economic blackmail.

Hardly deferring responsibility.

Jack Hays said:
Tsipras created the problem and is now hiding behind the people.

Jack Hays said:
It was and remains a terrible problem but there was a path to a solution. Tsipras left that path and created the crisis.

Your first post to me intimated that this was all Tsipras' fault but having read further, I get it now, the previous years of sliding into a vast and never ending debt to creditors, the transition of Greece into a bankrupt state was not a crisis?

Andalublue said:
Who've you been flying with? 7 hours to fly to Greece??? I flew Manchester - Rhodes two years ago in 4 hours.

I must have fallen asleep. :3oops:

Ben K. · Jun 29, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
I disagree, George Papandreou was pretty much ousted 4 years ago but not by Tsipras for suggesting a referendum / public vote on his rescue package but not by Tsipras. The conditions for Papandreou publicly slammed by Greece's debtors and then Tsipras turned down the $15billion rescue package on Friday which the Greek govt saw as economic blackmail.

Hardly deferring responsibility.

:

I'm not saying he was ousted by tsipras. I'm saying tsipras was among those criticising a call for referendum because the public weren't informed enough to to make the decision. He's a hypocrite.

Infinite Chaos · Jun 29, 2015

Ben K. said:
I'm not saying he was ousted by tsipras. I'm saying tsipras was among those criticising a call for referendum because the public weren't informed enough to to make the decision. He's a hypocrite.

Papandreou backed down over his referendum plan as it became clear that Greece faced the prospect of going bust within weeks after EU powerhouses Germany and France threatened to withdraw further financial support for the country until after the popular vote was held.

Focusing the minds of terrified politicians, the threat encouraged a swift change of stance from the main opposition leader, Samaras. The leader of the New Democracy party, who had previously vehemently opposed the rescue plan, now says he will support its passage in the 300-seat parliament. The news was welcomed by German chancellor Angela Merkel and French president Nicolas Sarkozy, who have been blaming the lack of political consensus in Greece for its inability to enact crucial reforms. Link.

He may have thought the referendum was a bad idea or the public not informed enough (I haven't actually found where he says this yet) when powerful actors were not obvious to the people but I think all cards are out right now. As a Greek, you wouldn't be able to ignore all the forces at play right now.

Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

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