Godwin's Law Irrelevant in Rational Abortion Debate

[Engimo]

For those that got my last post that I deleted...The verse steen cites is Hosea 13:16 in the KJV...But it is Hosea 14:1 in the NAB... In context..the reference is the result of idolotry and disobedience. they were delivered onto their own sins...sound more like our current state of self-idolotry and that the cited verse only points more directly to the consequences of sin that result in the proliferation of abortion. God doesn't hate fetuses...he allows the Sumarians to be delivered to the ultimate result of their sins...He allows that in our times as well.

How is this relevant? Seriously, what the Bible says does not matter at all for deciding U.S. policy on abortion - we're a secular country.

 

[Felicity]

How is this relevant? Seriously, what the Bible says does not matter at all for deciding U.S. policy on abortion - we're a secular country.

Just countering the "quote-mining" claim...I didn't even mention the root for "hysterical" and 'hystrionic" and the anti-woman etymology of those particular word choices...

 

[doughgirl]

Steen you posted this website……http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr//preview/mmwrhtml/ss5407a1.htm

Hmmmm

Interesting fact about this website.

"In 1998 and 1999, the number of abortions reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) excluded data from four states - Alaska, California, New Hampshire and Oklahoma - that did not provide information. Data from Oklahoma was included in the 2000, 2001 and 2002 statistics. In order to compare reported abortions in 1997 to the subsequent years, the CDC recalculated abortion totals for 1995, 1996 and 1997, minus these non-reporting states.”

(http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/bioethics/facts/a0027730.cfm)

Another interesting fact. This website had this to report.

The data presented there is based on the latest statistics available from the Federal government's Centers for Disease Control as of October, 2004. (http://www.pregnantpause.org/numbers/abortgen.htm)
“Alaska, California, New Hampshire, and Oklahoma quit reporting abortions in 1998.”

Hmmmmmmm California is a huge state…our biggest.
Well so much for your site.

How about these...

http://www.cbrinfo.org/Resources/fastfacts.html (All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives.)

Abortion coverage:
48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women.
Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).
At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.
Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

How about this one….
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

According to Alan Guttmacher Institute…
• 60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children.
• 47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.
• 43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old (this statistic includes miscarriages in the term "abortion").
• According to a USA Today, CNN Gallup Poll in May, 1999 - 16% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy and 55% of American believe abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.
• According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.

 

[doughgirl]

Steen says,“I am a Christian.”

Christ says we can not judge a persons heart, only his words and action.
In my opinion and based on scriptures I do not see how a person could be a Christian and advocate abortion. Anyone can be a Christian in name only……..and his words and actions show otherwise. I do not think Christian doctrine leaves any room for the dismemberment of the unborn.

What the world sees is this: Christians who attest to Christ with their words, but then go out into the world and deny Him with their deeds. I can’t imagine anything else that you would encounter in the world that would more directly contradict Christianity than to say you were pro-choice abortion. Can anything more contradict the full Christian message than a mother who kills her own innocent child?

I am not Catholic but I loved Mother Teresa, and I loved what she said about abortion. "If abortion is not wrong, nothing is wrong".

Steen says “So don't have an abortion. Don't unChristianly impose your personal beliefs into politics in God's name. That's blaspehmy you spew. Also please cease your incessant bearing false witness.”

If you truely were a Christian you would know that as a Christian I have the right to judge actions. I happen to hold to the Christian Worldview. I live it daily and not just when it suits me. I follow it at home, and at work. This is not something you can turn off, or it really means nothing. I believe God is the creator of children and a lover of children. Scriptures support this. Satan is a hater and destroyer of children because they have been created in the image of God. If satan can’t kill God the next best thing is killing Gods littlest children. Look at society today and the people who support satan in his quest to kill those made in Gods image.

You just would think that if one would call themselves a Christian they would fight for God. There are 1.4 million of God’s children killed every year in this country. Abortion is NOT a woman’ issue, it’s a human one.

Of all the sins committed in the Old Testament, one stands out above the others in its utter abomination to God; the killing of children. Look up Levitucus 20……read what God says about the killing of children. Then read Proverbs 7, then 2 Kings 24.


Let me get this straight. I said in a previous post that God designed our reproductive cycle, Steen you said it evolved, it wasn't designed.

You do not even give God the credit for creation. Hmmm What do you give him credit for, if anything?

Steen said, “The WOMAN should be protected.”

I agree and woman today are very much protected. And your point?

“Yadda, yadda, yadda, quote-mining the Bible.”

Well there ya go again mocking God and the Bible. And you said what? That you called yourself a Christian? What is Christian to you anyway? Oh do give us your definition.

“I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” Revelation 3:15

I am just curious….Have you ever read the Bible?

 

[steen]

Steen you posted this website……
Well so much for your site.

How about these...

Well, my site (The CDC, a federal agency of a conservative, prolife administration) stated that 54% of abortions were first-time abortions, not repeat ones.

Your sites listed repeaters as 47%. Sure seems like that is an agreement, so why the hissyfit? Both sources show that the majority of aboprtions are NOT repeat abortions, and hence your claim was a false claim. Even your own sources admit this.

So you are, of course, retracting your false claim. Good :clap: :good_job: :bravo: :congrats:

 

[steen]

In my opinion and based on scriptures I do not see how a person could be a Christian and advocate abortion.

In my opinion and based on scriptures I do not see how a person could be a Christian and advocate enslavement of women through prolife policies.

Anyone can be a Christian in name only

While seeking the oppression of women. Yes, prolifers are ample evidence of this.

and his words and actions show otherwise. I do not think Christian doctrine leaves any room for the dismemberment of the unborn.

Rather, you don't "think" this because it would disturb your desire to oppress women through enslavement; that's why you so blasphemously misuse God's word for political hate mongering, spitting God in the eye in the process. You do indeed show to be a "Christian" in name only.

What the world sees is this: Christians who attest to Christ with their words, but then go out into the world and deny Him with their deeds.

Yes, prolife hate mongering, misogynistic oppression of women is clear example of this.

I can’t imagine anything else that you would encounter in the world that would more directly contradict Christianity than to say you were pro-choice abortion.

Sure we can. Somebody claiming to be prolife based on God';s word while pushing their personal political agenda of oppressive enslavement of women in the false name of God.

Can anything more contradict the full Christian message than a mother who kills her own innocent child?

Hosea 13:16. God slays fetuses. God doesn't find fetuses holy in the way the theocratic, misogynistic prolifers do. Thus, the prolife blasphemous misuse of God's word for their personal agenda of oppressing women is what truly is contrary to God's Christian message, spitting on the memory of Jesus.

I am not Catholic but I loved Mother Teresa, and I loved what she said about abortion. "If abortion is not wrong, nothing is wrong".

What do I care about somebody who glorified poverty for those who lived in the slum, while she wined and dined with the rich and famous, and who obviously thus showed more concern for the fetus than for persons?

If you truely were a Christian you would know that as a Christian I have the right to judge actions.

Matthew 7:1

I happen to hold to the Christian Worldview.

No, you hold the prolife worldview of oppressing women.

I live it daily and not just when it suits me. I follow it at home, and at work. This is not something you can turn off, or it really means nothing.

Given how much you are bearing false witness in your posts, I would say that your claim is a flat out lie.

I believe God is the creator of children and a lover of children

Irrelevant, as there are no children until birth and as such not related to abortions. Your false witnessing in spewing your prolife revisionist linguistics and lies is evidence against your pious spin here. You are a pharisee.

Scriptures support this. Satan is a hater and destroyer of children because they have been created in the image of God. If satan can’t kill God the next best thing is killing Gods littlest children. Look at society today and the people who support satan in his quest to kill those made in Gods image.

Yadda, yadda, yadda. Once again, you spew your revisionist linguistics, dishonestly twisted to justify a biblical foundation for your misogynistic hate mongering

You just would think that if one would call themselves a Christian they would fight for God.

Exactly; yet you spit God in the eye per your constant misrepresentations and distortions, your ongoing bearing false witness, your spitting God in the eye by blasphemously misusing scripture for your political agenda of oppression and hate mongering against women.

There are 1.4 million of God’s children killed every year in this country.

back to the revisionist linguistics, back to the bearing false witness. Once again you spit God in the eye. Shame on you.

Abortion is NOT a woman’ issue, it’s a human one.

It is a medical issue between a woman and a physician. It is NOT your excuse for controlling and oppressing her to your fundie theocracy.

Of all the sins committed in the Old Testament, one stands out above the others in its utter abomination to God; the killing of children.

More lies: Hosea 13:16

Let me get this straight. I said in a previous post that God designed our reproductive cycle, Steen you said it evolved, it wasn't designed.

You do not even give God the credit for creation.

Sure. Through the process of evolution.

I agree and woman today are very much protected. And your point?

That your claim is false, that you seek to oppress and control the woman, not "protect her, that you again are bearing false witness.

Well there ya go again mocking God and the Bible.

Nope. I mock your deliberate misrepresentation of the Bible. I mock your twisting of God's word into suiting your political, self-righteous attack on women.

And you said what? That you called yourself a Christian?

Yes, I will fight FOR God against blasphemous hate mongers like you any day.

 

[vergiss]

Christ says we can not judge a persons heart, only his words and action.
In my opinion and based on scriptures I do not see how a person could be a Christian and advocate abortion. Anyone can be a Christian in name only……..and his words and actions show otherwise.

Blah blah blah I'm the best Christian ever and Steen sucks.

I am just curious….Have you ever read the Bible?

Okay, if there is one thing I cannot stand, it's when people pull the "You're a worse (insert religion here) than me!" bulls*it. Don't you dare try any of that on Steen. It's pathetic, it's desperate and it makes you look like a right fool.

Kudos to Steen for being Christian enough not to slander another's faith.

 

[doughgirl]

Steen sites ……Hosea 13:16. God slays fetuses. God doesn't find fetuses holy in the way the theocratic, misogynistic prolifers do. Thus, the prolife blasphemous misuse of God's word for their personal agenda of oppressing women is what truly is contrary to God's Christian message, spitting on the memory of Jesus.

Ok other than this one scripture show us others where God hates children. Site them please. show us other scriptures where God hates children.

You mock God yet you say you are a Christian. You question his motives and put yours above his. You say really hey, God slaughtered kids so can we. Does this justify our committing infanticide or even killing adolescent children?

Hosea shows that God gives life, and only he can determine if it is to be taken away. We are not to take the place of God, as we do with abortions. That is the true blasphemy as far as the Bible in concerned, the soul and the flesh are complementary aspects of a unified being, they are not separate.

Accordingly, the bible says Adam "BECAME a living soul", not "WAS GIVEN a living soul". Man does not have a body, he is a body. Man does not have a soul, he is a soul. The unborn child is a body, and a soul, which has a personal relationship with God, as evidenced by scripture.

Look at Jer.1:5…. God appointed Jeremiah prophet before he was born, in the womb. In Judges 13:2-7 we see God consecrating Samson before birth. Isa. 49:1,5 we see the same applies to Jesus (also Gal. 1:15), and at Luke 1:13-17 we see it applies to John as well.
In Exodus 21:22 God gives a specific law regarding social order for the Israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If God would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to Him.
Do a deductive bible study on this. Weigh the evidence….

Steen you will use anything to rationalize taking the life of the unborn child. Abortion has to do with morals. It is a moral issue. And abortion is a flagrant violation of Gods law. This is superior to man made laws.
You think the fetus is an appendage of the woman, this is false. It is not an appendage, but a life unto itself.

Scriptures tell us that man was created by God in His image and likeness and that the soul comes into being at the moment of conception. It is evidenced by the biblical account of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary when Gabriel came to Mary and announced to her the Good News. Also, when Mary visited Elizabeth, the unborn John the Baptist “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth’s womb and she was filled with the Holy Spirit. The Bible regards personal identity as beginning at the moment of conception — “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.” — Psalm 51. Behold, the miracle of conception and the miracle of birth.

Every woman giving birth to a child is a co-creator with God who is the creator of the universe including man himself .

I commented about Mother Teresa……and you pathetically replied,

“What do I care about somebody who glorified poverty for those who lived in the slum, while she wined and dined with the rich and famous, and who obviously thus showed more concern for the fetus than for persons?”

Boy I wish we were in the basement right now. This is a pathetic and outrageous statement for someone who calls himself a Christian………

Vergiss, I am not slandering anyone. If it is one thing I know and that is scripture.
I have every right to judge a persons words and actions. And I will continue to do so. I could care less what you think. And the observations I have made of Steens posts lead me to believe he is anything but a Christian.

I have never once made myself out to be better than anyone else. I am a Christian, I am a sinner.

If someone steals, lies, commits adultery, murders…. as a Christian I can make a (righteous) moral judgment and say that the actions were morally wrong, and that these sins will have eternal consequences

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of The Father, and of The Son and of The Holy Ghost; Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always even unto the end of the world. Amen" Matthew 28:19-20

This is a commandment that Christ gives his believers. And it’s not something to be turned off and on at whim. I witness my faith in Christ and I witness His word.
If you say I can’t judge you are wrong and that leads me to believe you have no clue what the bible says.
Matthew 18:15-17
Read John 7:24
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
1 Corinthians 6:1-4
Hebrews 13:7 and 13:17

We as Christian have every right to judge believers behavior and actions. (Steen claims to be a Christian so he is fair game) We are not however responsible for the final evaluation of anyones character, including our own. (1 Corinthians 4:4)
God alone has this authority. We are responsible to judge conduct and relationships. We are not to base this on our feelings, or by the opinions of society or even by our own estimation of ourselves. We are to judge conduct and relationships by the CLEAR TEACHING AND STANDARDS REVEALED IN THE WORD OF GOD.


Throughout the Bible God has plenty to say about the taking of an innocent life. From scriptures, it is clear that life begins when God creates it, not at some later point in time when it has grown to look like a newborn. God does not judge things according to their stage of development the way we do. Even the tiniest embryo is the subject of His love and care. God sees each of our lives in the realm of our total existence. And abortion ends that chance for the innocent.

God tells us to: “Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. There will be no excuses. Read proverbs 24:11-12 “ If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

We are to rescue these innocents. At least try. God will repay each person according to what he has done,,,,,and if you sit back and do nothing about this innocent slaughter……..judgment will come.

The words of God are as clear now as they were over 3,000 years ago:

“This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your children may live, and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice and hold fast to him. Deuteronomy 30:19-20

Life is the answer, not abortion. And I will judge the actions of those doing the horrific abortions in clinics all over the world and those who condone abortion. I will not judge their hearts, that is Gods domain. I have every right to speak my mind and judge their actions.

 

[tecoyah]

If it is one thing I know and that is scripture.
I have every right to judge a persons words and actions. And I will continue to do so. I could care less what you think. And the observations I have made of Steens posts lead me to believe he is anything but a Christian.

This is so true....it does seem to be the ONE(1) thing you know, though not well. The way you blatantly judge others, and yes (slander) at times, relegates your supposed "Christian " standing to one of rediculous Hypocracy. Were you to show some level of understanding of not only human society, but the psyche of those you attempt to debate you might find some level of acceptance of your opinion. As it is, I for one have avoided any thread you are involved in, primarily because you lack the intellect to contribute any knowledge to a subject.
I note the continued use of scripture in your posting....and cringe. Having studied these scriptures for some time I dislike the interpretations many project into these wonderful works....they stand well without your opinion thrown in. I would recommend you do not attempt seminary....or any aspect of religious scholarship....for both your own benefit, and that of whatever God you decide to follow.
I will now apologize to the board for losing my cool here....but Damn, it needed to be said.

 

[ngdawg]

:bravo:

I have avoided responding as well to her posts. It seems that scripture is her tool, but she's hammering with a screwdriver; "judge not lest ye be judged', but she has 'every right to judge a person's words and actions' with NO factual basis. Calling names and twisting meanings is not debate. Making blanket judgement of others and using the bible to back the remarks up is about as un-christian as one could be.
It's when I see such things that I am glad I'm not religious; if this is what it means, count me out.

 

[steen]

Ok other than this one scripture show us others where God hates children. Site them please. show us other scriptures where God hates children.

Why? One wasn't enough?

You mock God

No, I mock you for lying about God.

yet you say you are a Christian.

Yes, I defend God's word againmst people like you who blasphemously misuse the Bible for their own political agenda of hate mongering misogyny, spitting God in the eye in the process through all your bearing false witness.

You question his motives and put yours above his.

No, I question YOUR motives and set mine above your hate mongering, misogynistic blasphemy.

That you now seem to think that you are God and that I therefore was talking about you, that just shows how far gone you are.

I have had enough of your willful deceptions, hate mongering and outright lies. You are going on ignore with the other liars.

 

[vergiss]

You'd do well to remember that God's not terribly fond of self-righteous hypocrites, doughgirl.

 

[doughgirl]

Put me on ignore. You think I care?
The fact is Steen you know of no other verse in the Bible that shows Gods hatred towards children. Because there isn't any.
And you can't come up with any.
Your back is against the wall on this one and you know it.

I have never pretended to be better than anyone else. I have obeyed the rules on this website.
I have been open and honest about my past mistakes and my experience with abortion. I have NEVER TRIED to come across as better than anyone else. If you think that of me you have that right. but you obviously have not read much of my confessions in other threads.

You say I can't judge and then you turn around and judge every pro-lifer on this board. You are the one that calls them names and you mock the fact that we value and want to protect innocent lives. And the pathetic thing is you mock God and His creation.
If you had read the Bible you would know that God says we can judge.

Tecoyah said, "As it is, I for one have avoided any thread you are involved in, primarily because you lack the intellect to contribute any knowledge to a subject."

Lack intellect eh? I post facts backed up with books, articles and websites. They are legitament websites. Funny thing is, you question pro-lifers websites and fall for those posted by Steen and others who are pro-abortion. You are not pro-life so you hate anything that goes against your opinion.

"I note the continued use of scripture in your posting....and cringe."

Now you are lying here. I rarely post scripture, almost never. AndI only responded to that scripture that STEEN.....posted. He started with Hosea. I think you missed that fact. He was the one who started on religion. Please post sites where I continue to post from the bible? YEA RIGHT. I rarely post scripture int he abortion debate because I do not think one need be religious to see that the dismemberment of the unborn while alive is wrong. I have said numerous times that many of the people that I work with are athiests, and people with no faith in God at all. You must have missed this too. I believe truth is truth, not whatever we want it to be. Abortion kills an innocent human being, that is the truth. that is fact. A fact that pro-lifers have a hard time living with, and a fact that pro-choicers could care less about.

"Having studied these scriptures for some time I dislike the interpretations many project into these wonderful works....they stand well without your opinion thrown in. I would recommend you do not attempt seminary....or any aspect of religious scholarship....for both your own benefit, and that of whatever God you decide to follow."

Wonderful works? Do you mean the GoodNews of Jesus Christ? As you know works dont get you into heaven.....Do you mean the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on Scripture? Works? You think of the Bible only as a work?

Now who is judging here? Well of course you dislike my interpretations...you are not pro-life. Steen gave his interpretation........did he not? WEll whatever God I choose to follow.........I am sure He is not for the dismemberment of His creation. The fact that you would condone this is cruel and inhumane.

"I will now apologize to the board for losing my cool here....but Damn, it needed to be said."

You need not apologize to the board as you did not lose your cool. It is good that people see this dialogue or exchange. It exposes the cruel position of the pro-choice side. And that is a good thing.

Ignore me if you want but I will keep talking about this issue. As Edmund Burke said, "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little."
If you make yourself available God will use you. If those of us who value life don't exercise our First Amendment rights, not only are we going to lose them but evil will continue to triumph. We must continue to change the hearts of opposition leaders and pass laws that protect the unborn. We must bring about an end to abortion. I believe it can happen. That is why your side is in a state of panic. With god all things are possible.

 

[vergiss]

The fact is Steen you know of no other verse in the Bible that shows Gods hatred towards children. Because there isn't any.
And you can't come up with any.
Your back is against the wall on this one and you know it.

I wouldn't say hatred (that's your wording, not his), but there's certainly much killing of children and foetuses...

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
Deuteronomy 2:34 utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.
Deuteronomy 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Lamentations 2:20 Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.
Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

 

[Stace]

I have never pretended to be better than anyone else. I have obeyed the rules on this website.

That's funny, that's not the impression I got from some of your posts.

You say I can't judge and then you turn around and judge every pro-lifer on this board. You are the one that calls them names and you mock the fact that we value and want to protect innocent lives. And the pathetic thing is you mock God and His creation.
If you had read the Bible you would know that God says we can judge.

Doesn't the Bible say "Judge not, lest ye be judged"? And "He without sin cast the first stone"?

Now you are lying here. I rarely post scripture, almost never. AndI only responded to that scripture that STEEN.....posted. He started with Hosea. I think you missed that fact. He was the one who started on religion. Please post sites where I continue to post from the bible? YEA RIGHT. I rarely post scripture int he abortion debate because I do not think one need be religious to see that the dismemberment of the unborn while alive is wrong. I have said numerous times that many of the people that I work with are athiests, and people with no faith in God at all. You must have missed this too. I believe truth is truth, not whatever we want it to be. Abortion kills an innocent human being, that is the truth. that is fact. A fact that pro-lifers have a hard time living with, and a fact that pro-choicers could care less about.

You don't post Scripture THAT often, that's true...I went through every single post you've ever made and found five instances, though there were a couple more I didn't count because the person you were debating with had cited Scripture first. But there are NUMEROUS times that you bring up God and Christianity, you bring that up nearly every other post. If you say that one need not be religious to see your side of things, then why bring it up at all?

One big reason that people get so angry with you and don't want to debate with you? You CONSTANTLY misinterpret things that people say. You CONSTANTLY say things about them that simply aren't true; you CONSTANTLY make assumptions about them that have no basis. There are many instances where I could cite things that you have said that have just been outright lies and attacks on people, but I don't really have the time or inclination.

If you would be more civil to people, and not try to assume so much about them, they'd be a lot more likely to respond in kind.

 

[Felicity]

Is it three-D glasses that allow the pro-choice side to miss the berating that is directed toward the pro-life side and MAGNIFY any irritation a pro-lifer expresses? Stace--I can see you are attempting to be fair here...the sword swings both ways, and some of us on both sides can be relentless. How 'bout the "DUMP ON DOUGHGIRL" party come to a halt. Talk about unproductive!


IMO: especially when accused of LYING so much, she is well within her rights to call steen on his profession of Christianity. Just as wild Pro-life exaggerations muddy the pro-life message, those who profess to abide by a particular religion within Christianity--or even just profess to be "Christian"--and spout anti-christian positions smear what real Christianity is. On a debate forum--anyone can claim anything about themselves and NONE of it need be true. You are judged by your words and consistency alone and steen rhetoric is in FACT anti-Christian. NO genuine Christian sect holds to what steen professes. That is FACT.

 

[Felicity]

You'd do well to remember that God's not terribly fond of self-righteous hypocrites, doughgirl.

experience?


There's that pubescent sniping again...tsk ...tsk...

 

[Felicity]

:bravo:

Calling names and twisting meanings is not debate. Making blanket judgement of others and using the bible to back the remarks up is about as un-christian as one could be.
It's when I see such things that I am glad I'm not religious; if this is what it means, count me out.

Ignoring the "judge not...thing because that is so out of context as to be pointless....


so in what you say....calling names =unChristian, you see "calling names" done by Christians, therefore "calling names" is part of religion, therefore you don't want any part of that so you won't be "Christian"--hence you will be unChristian...big circle there:2razz:

....I know what you meant...I'm just messing with you...Calling names is not Christianly, but then again...Christians aren't Christ--they just try their best to be like Him and sometimes fall down due to our warped human nature. If you confuse the two...it may be those three-D glasses.

 

[ngdawg]

Warped human nature is one thing. Declaring yourself to be something then turning around and making comments that completely negate the stance you' ve taken is another. If you are going to live by a creed, then turn around and emphatically state something that goes against it, be prepared to be called on it, ie; 'judge not', etc. I quoted, did not take out of context at all as it was a solo statement.





we now return you to your normal punch-counterpunch subject....

 

[shuamort]

Is it three-D glasses that allow the pro-choice side to miss the berating that is directed toward the pro-life side and MAGNIFY any irritation a pro-lifer expresses? Stace--I can see you are attempting to be fair here...the sword swings both ways, and some of us on both sides can be relentless. How 'bout the "DUMP ON DOUGHGIRL" party come to a halt. Talk about unproductive!


IMO: especially when accused of LYING so much, she is well within her rights to call steen on his profession of Christianity. Just as wild Pro-life exaggerations muddy the pro-life message, those who profess to abide by a particular religion within Christianity--or even just profess to be "Christian"--and spout anti-christian positions smear what real Christianity is. On a debate forum--anyone can claim anything about themselves and NONE of it need be true. You are judged by your words and consistency alone and steen rhetoric is in FACT anti-Christian. NO genuine Christian sect holds to what steen professes. That is FACT.

Facts require proof. Prove your claim.

 

[Felicity]

Warped human nature is one thing. Declaring yourself to be something then turning around and making comments that completely negate the stance you' ve taken is another. If you are going to live by a creed, then turn around and emphatically state something that goes against it, be prepared to be called on it, ie; 'judge not', etc. I quoted, did not take out of context at all as it was a solo statement.





we now return you to your normal punch-counterpunch subject....

No, dear...it does not stand alone...those little verse numbers don't mean that that is a thing that can be taken out of context of the whole passage... The way you used it in the post I responded to--it seemed to say that we are not to judge at all--though what the passage really says is that if we judge in such a way, we need to be prepared to be judged by the same standard. However, as you describe above, THAT is the meaning of the passege...

Matt.7
[1] Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


We ARE to judge--plenty of scripture supports that in both old and new Testaments.--but we are to judge rightly and judiciously. That is the point.

 

[Felicity]

Facts require proof. Prove your claim.

What claim are you exactly asking me to prove? You want me to list all the Christian churches and their tenents? Impossible. But I can give you Jesus' own words...

Mark.12
[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
[31] And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Ask steen if he loves the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Ask steen if he loves me and doughgirl as much as he loves himself.
Finally--ask steen if he loves fetuses.

Jesus is Christ. If you follow Jesus' words, or do your very best to, you are Christian.

 

[FutureIncoming]

Some time ago Felicity wrote Message #13 in this Thread, in response to my own #12. I have delayed responding to your Message because I wanted to focus elsewhere on the more-major disagreement that we have been debating, until it was resolved, or mostly-resolved. Well, over in the "Hypocrites!" Thread, you are now facing facts you cannot deny and logic you cannot refute, such that even if you don't admit that you finally understand that your argument has been demolished, I'm pretty sure you actually do finally understand (or are close to understanding) that your argument has been demolished. ("Just because SOME humans are terrorists...") So now I can use that to clean up the mess over here in this Thread.




Felicity quoted: Interesting, but flawed. For example, "dehumanization" is not needed for fetuses. It is a biological fact that the fetus is no more than an animal, EVEN THOUGH perfectly human. Jews, who have more-than-animal-level minds, were indeed dehumanized; their minds' abilities were discounted. For a fetus, it is not possible to discount a more-than-animal mind that does not exist!

--and wrote: Obviously we disagree on this point and I reject the fetus=animal statement that you and I have run circles on. So this is irrelevant. Fetuses are in fact human beings and so are Jews. The "mind" you are so fond of is not applicable to the fact of the "dehumanizing" that you acquiesce to."

FAULTY LOGIC. Normally, "dehumanizing" is considered synonymous with "depersonalizing" such that humans can then be treated as non-persons. After all, the only LOGICAL way to dehumanize a human is to (for starters) do something like send nanomachines into all the cells to snip out the DNA that distinguishes humans from other animals! No humans have ever had such a technology as that! Which leaves only ABSTRACT dehumanization, otherwise referrable to as "depersonalization". THAT is obviously what happened in the case of Jews; they were indeed persons who were treated like non-persons. However, for fetuses, the claim that they are persons is false. Fetuses do not and indeed can not exhibit any of the traits that allow persons to be distinguished from animals. They cannot be de-personalized if they are not persons at the start. Simple logic.





Felicity quoted: "Regarding experimentation on ABORTED fetuses; shouldn't you have compared that to experimentation on KILLED Jews? ... Your analogy breaks, therefore, because the Nazis only experimented upon live Jews."

--and wrote: "Stem cells are removed from live embryos. The process of abortion is experimented with--causing the death of the fetuses."

Heh. Aren't those embryos NOT aborted? I thought they were the result of in-vitro fertilization. (A woman pregnant with only an embryo is NOT, so far as I ever heard about, aware yet that she is pregnant, and so won't be seeking an abortion.) No removal-from-womb there! Also (just to have fun being nitpicky), embryos are a different stage than fetuses, the seeking-to-implant stage, while your original comparison involved fetuses. Why are you changing your comparison? And finally, regarding experimental abortions, I'm not sure you are making a completely valid point. Despite the fact that an abortion process may be experimental, the adult woman involved was seeking the abortion regardless of how it was to be performed, after all. The phrase "experimenting upon the fetus" does not perfectly apply. (Not long ago I read a proposal somewhere about introducing an optical fiber into the womb, and using that to send a laser beam to cut/cauterize the umbilical cord. That would cause the death of a fetus within a short time (oxygen deprivation) and lead to miscarriage, without actually touching the main body of the fetus at all!)




Felicity wrote: "Cruelty does not require an understanding of the cruelty by the victim. you can be cruel to animals--so even by your standards--you can be cruel to fetuses."

Okay, EXCEPT that now the definition of "cruelty" is arguable. The very fact that a phrase like "mercy killing" exists means that killing is not always and automatically cruel. Certainly abortion is killing, but if the killing is done as quickly as possible, how can it be called cruel?





Felicity quoted: "Regarding scapegoats, this is not really necessay when Free Will is involved. By definition, a Free Will can choose to do a particular thing REGARDLESS of any stimulus. Claims regarding scapegoats are in essence denials that Free Will exists! Thus a woman might say, in sequence, "I want a child when the time is right.", "Oops, I am pregnant and not yet ready.", "My prior decision stands; mindless biology does not decide for me, when child-raising must begin." NO NEED FOR SCAPEGOAT, therefore!"

--and wrote: "I don't even get what you're saying here. It is not the fetus that is the cause of the mother's "problem”--it's her having become pregnant that is her problem--but the fetus is the one that bears the burden and is killed.

What you are not getting is that "cause and effect" is a denial of Free Will. A scapegoat is a BLAME-device, a way to evade taking responsibility for a choice. To say, "The Devil made me do it." is to scapegoat other-than-self. So, in my prior posting that you quoted, the free-willed woman is taking full responsibility for the decision to abort, and no scapegoating is involved. Now certainly the fetus does bear the burden, but it is NOT being blamed in this scenario. It is involved only because pregnancy is impossible without a fetus being involved (based on defining fetus as stage beginning when womb-implantation occurs). Let me try an analogy. If a fire burns down your house, can you really BLAME THE FIRE? More rational it is, to blame the CAUSE of the fire. Well, in the case of pregnancy, as you know, the cause is ALWAYS associated with the simple fact that natural mindless biology pays no attention to Free Will. (Choosing to indulge in sex doesn't cause pregnancy; it merely increases the probability that mindless biology will cause egg-fertilization, after which pregnancy MIGHT also and equally-mindlessly occur.)




Felicity quoted: "Regarding killing on a massive scale, three things. First, most killing of Jews was done on an "industrialized"/"mass production"/"wholesale" sort of manner, at only a few locations, while abortion is done "retail" in many many locations."

--and wrote: "yeah--so...since there are more locations to exterminate fetuses that somehow makes it "less like" extermination of Jews? That doesn't even make sense."

We are using "massive" differently. Try this analogy. In WW2 the Japanese, during a period of a few months, released thousands of balloons carrying explosives, intended to fly across the Pacific and land and bomb randomly in America. (http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/5714.html) This might be called a fairly massive attack, and perhaps 1000 made the whole crossing intact. Nevertheless, no mass-production-factory made those balloons. All were handcrafted in hundreds of locations (homes, I think). NONE made a "massive" number of balloons, even though the total number might be called that. Well, what I was saying in my other message was that NO SINGLE PLACE performs mass abortions, while the common definition of "mass murder" involves lots of murders in a single place in a short time. The Nazis did indeed commit mass murder of Jews, at places like Buchenwald and Auschwitz, but nowhere is "mass abortion" done.



Felicity quoted: "Second, Jew-killing was hush-hush (a major reason for only a few industrial-scale locations),"

--and wrote: "nd you think the abortion industry is wide open? Try to get accurate statistics and you will see the "hiding" of facts."

I'm talking about the simple fact that large numbers of abortions are done, across lots of places. It is widely known (the locations, also). But the killing of Jews was done in as much secrecy as the Nazis could manage.



Felicity quoted: "and took a while before the news got out AND was believed -- while abortions are done fairly openly; a large segment of society accepts it, which likely would NOT have been true of mass Jew-killing, even in Nazi Germany (remember movie "Schindler's List"? Schindler was a Nazi!)."

--and wrote: "and because more people are sucked into the regime of the abortive culture makes it "less like" the Nazi culture? Again...doesn't add up."

It DOES add up when the overall culture has EVIDENCE to support the choices made in that culture. The Nazis had NO evidence that millions of Jews were nonpersons. That's another reason for their secrecy. A culture that allows abortion, though, has plenty of evidence that fetuses indeed fail to qualify as persons, and so are merely animals. (Heh, even a culture that forbids abortions has that evidence!) No need for significant secrecy, therefore, when in the same culture millions of other animals are routinely also slaughtered for other reasons (flies swatted, mosquitos and ants and roaches poisoned, food-animals "processed", excess pets "put to sleep", etc.).


{continued next message}

 

[FutureIncoming]

{continued from previous message}



Felicity quoted: "Regarding persecution, this DOES NOT apply to fetuses. They are generally either left alone or killed; persecution is a middle ground, like torture."

--and wrote: "To quote your oft expressed..."HAW, HAW, HAW..." Unjustly killed for no crime at all and marginalized by those such as yourself as "not-human"? That is the very definition of persecution!"

FALSE. Persecution doesn't always involve killing. USUALLY it is merely harrassment and other unjust treatment (like tatooing only the Jews with numbers). Sometimes I think persecutors enjoy persecuting too much to want to kill their victims (unless they could easily get another to persecute). Bullies and sadists, they are. But abortion IS killing, and nothing more than that. NOT persecution. I see in a later Message (#17) you restated a little more thoroughly what I quoted above.




(From #17) Felicity wrote: "I and all other pro-lifers couldn't care less if the fetus can "think" at any particular pre-natal stage of development. It is a human being in the womb and it is marginalized, abused, and killed at the hands of those who have more power and choose to do so. Jews are human beings that were marginalized, abused, and killed at the hands who have more power and chose to do so--also. Valid comparison."

The fundamental flaw here is the choice by yourself and other pro-lifers to believe that mindless human life is more special than other equally-mindless animal life (which often are killed with no stigma, like swatting mosquitoes). There is NO evidence to support such a belief, and so it is illogical and cannot be any more valid than believing humans on Earth can fly by flapping their bare arms. ONLY BECAUSE OF THAT GROUNDLESS AND ILLOGICAL BELIEF can you claim that an undeveloped/unborn human can be called equal to a several-years-old/well-developed human. (In spite of the FACT that persons exist only as a result of significant brainpower-equivalent, which well-developed humans have, and which every fetus lacks.) AND ONLY AFTER DECLARING SUCH AN EQUALITY can you then call valid a comparison of abortion with the treatment that Jews received from the Nazis. Nevertheless, the comparison is INvalid, because the declaration is invalid, because the belief is invalid. Simple logic.

Try thinking about this: "I have the power to arbitrarily believe I am special, in spite of any evidence (other than the fact I have the power to hold that belief). I can therefore arbitrarily believe anything else is either special or non-special, as I choose, because I have that power. It is logically sensible to think that any other organism that has the power to claim specialness is at least as special as I claim myself to be. But it is NOT logical to extend THAT KIND of specialness to anything unable to make the claim of specialness. I may choose to extend specialness, anyway, because I have that power, but I must recognize that it is still an illogical thing to do -- AND I must recognize that others might disagree with my illogical choice."

I'm pretty sure you cannot come up with a logical refutation of that. And the disagreement it mentions is, of course, at the heart of the abortion issue. AND it is because logic is NOT on your side, that your side is resisted, by those who do not want your illogic forced upon them.

 

[shuamort]

What claim are you exactly asking me to prove?

This:

NO genuine Christian sect holds to what steen professes. That is FACT.

You want me to list all the Christian churches and their tenents? Impossible.

Hey, it's your claim, feel free to stand by and prove it or retract it.

But I can give you Jesus' own words...

Mark.12
[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
[31] And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Ask steen if he loves the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Ask steen if he loves me and doughgirl as much as he loves himself.
Finally--ask steen if he loves fetuses.

Jesus is Christ. If you follow Jesus' words, or do your very best to, you are Christian.

First, you'll have to prove that a person named Jesus said that and then prove that there was a god, then prove that he was the son of god, then prove that he actually said that. That's a lot of burden on your end. You can just claim that it's rhetoric that you enjoy, but I'm not putting any weight behind that book at all until those items are proven first.