• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

God probably exists ii

Just a quick one because I'm going out shortly...

I came to this idea on my own however it seems that I am not alone and those that think the idea is daft need to appreciate that there are some highly qualified people who are at least beginning to explore the possibility that the Universe is a conscious construct...

The universe may be conscious, say prominent scientists - Big Think
 
Here's a trite taugology: for those in existence, the statement "there is existence" could not fail to be true.

In existence, "why existence?" is meaningless.

The question "where could the universe have come from" fails to ask a question. You don't need God. You just need to not ask the question because the question is incoherent.
 
Last edited:
You say that my theory only works if I take my conclusion for granted...but that is exactly what materialists do!
Yeah, no.

"Materialists" ("naturalists" may be a better term) ask for evidence of the claims in question. So, if you claim that "birds are designed," you need to show evidence of that design.

For example, the materialist or naturalist doesn't start with the assumption that "deities exist" or "deities do not exist." What they do is look at the evidence, and use that evidence to develop a theory. They then try to test that theory and/or compare it to new evidence, over and over, until the theory is essentially complete. E.g. Darwin closely observed a number of bird species in the Galapagos Islands, and based on those observations, developed early theories of evolution and natural selection. Subsequent evidence showed how genetics, and features like random mutation and genetic drift, influence natural selective processes.

In contrast, you need to promote your theory in spite of the evidence. There is no evidence that random changes in DNA, some of which result in biological changes that are better adapted to the current environment, some of which result in biological changes that are worse adapted to the current environment, are manipulated by a conscious entity. So, you have to retreat, and claim that a fundamentally random process like natural selection is "really" created by God -- even though there is no evidence for that claim, either. As a result, you end up with unfalsifiable claims built on positing the existence of a deity that even you claim is superfluous to the results.


As it happens my explanation works outwards from what we know at a personal level to explain reality whilst yours works back from a foregone unproven conclusion that the Universe is mindless.
lol, no. You have it 100% backwards.

The materialist or naturalist or physicalist starts with observation. You look at the world, you look at the evidence, you experiment, you test, you see which hypotheses work and which fail and why. If there was actually evidence of design in speciation, then scientists would need to explain it. Or, if there was evidence of conscious thought behind physical phenomena ranging from the quantum to cosmic scales, scientists would need to explain that. But, there isn't, so they don't.

In contrast, it is obvious that you are starting with the claim that "God exists," and are throwing out rationalizations, positing immensely complex entities, and violating your own criteria to jam that square peg into the round hole. Since there is no evidence, you end up with unfalsifiable claims whose entailments you conveniently ignore, or fail to comprehend in the first place.


The idea that a mindless Universe is simpler is complete bull****...exactly the same stuff exists in your mindless happenstance Universe as in my mindful one.
lol

Even your own phrase puts lie to your claim. If I see a motionless mannequin, is it simpler to posit that it is, or is not, conscious? Obviously it is simpler to say it is not conscious. When the "exact same stuff" happens in both scenarios, the "mindless" version is unquestionably simpler.


In this theory brains do not cause thoughts, brains and thought correlate, that correlation is caused by God.
And again, that is less parsimonious! It is truly stunning that you simply cannot comprehend how adding a stupendously complex element that violates all the laws of physics is the more complicated option here.

For example, how does God correlate those thoughts? God can't actually interact with any of the neurons or axons or neurotransmitters or electrons that are in your brain, without violating the laws of physics. Why would God make brains full of neurons anyway? Is he just trying to dupe us into thinking that God doesn't exist? All you can do is handwave or invoke *cough* magical thinking.


This system would clearly explain why we have a degree of free will (freedom to choose between available options)...which we all experience directly.
LOL! No, it doesn't, not even close. If the activities in the brain have to route through a deity, how does that create free will? Your brain can't act on its own, can't think on its own, without the deity. Needless to say, a deity whose deliberate intervention is required in order for you to think, and whose involvement is completely undetectable, could also be manipulating your thoughts without you having any awareness of it. God could be manipulating you into thinking you have free will, when you don't.

Again, this is the problem with the kinds of unfalsifiable claims you're positing. Once you open the door, you cannot contain the subsequent surge of possibilities that you did not consider, and which contradict your claims or are otherwise unpalatable.
 
Big thinkers, such modest people!

The fact that scientists and highly qualified people are taking theories similar to mine seriously disproves the idea that this approach is not scientific or logical.
 
Here's a trite taugology: for those in existence, the statement "there is existence" could not fail to be true.

In existence, "why existence?" is meaningless.

The question "where could the universe have come from" fails to ask a question. You don't need God. You just need to not ask the question because the question is incoherent.

The assumption that there are no questions related as to why existence is here automatically has to lead to the concept that existence is the cause of itself...we have no evidence that anything complex and predictable causes itself, jumbo jets just don't suddenly appear so why should we assume the laws of nature do?

The only thing that comes close to causing itself is Will when it causes character (knowledge, beliefs ,disposition etc)...it can cause us to do something beyond automatic processes, to become something else.
 
Visbek,


I think you've got this completely arse about face. I'm saying this existence is akin to a program. The laws of nature are part of that program , the laws of nature have allowed the different species of animals to develop and evolve. In other words God didn't make birds like a sculptor carves a statue, He developed a program that gave rise to the species. As I've said a number of times there is nothing anti-science about this theory.

The claim that God exists is necessary for the claim that this existence is like a program...He's the programmer, so I'm adding nothing unnecessary. God need not be complex in the sense that much of the program He created could be running itself...in a sense the program can create something more complex than the programmer. Everything is contained within His mind does not imply that He has to focus on every detail....although there is no reason to suppose His computing power is limited. Also as pointed out this theory is more parsimonious than your idea because only that which is observed need come into being...so God brings atoms into focus only when we look at them through an electron microscope (or whatever)...that would imply that this theory is literally trillions of times more efficient than yours.This demonstrates that a conscious universe may be less complex than a mindless one...simply nowhere near as much needs to exist at any given time.

God creates laws within the program (correlations)...there's nothing complicated about 1+1=2...so he correlates brain + activity = thoughts.

We all sense our freedom to choose between available options, we can believe that a God is playing us like chess pieces but I'll go with what I feel at a personal level...ie, I think I make my own choices within the confines of what's on offer. For all the laws of nature within the program there may well be parts of the program that allow us those freedoms...this theory allows for a degree of separation between the world around us (reality) and our inner thoughts (so that explains dreams and fantasies etc...our subjective world).

I've already shown that this theory can be falsified...do a Rubik's cube without ever looking at it (no peeking or knowing the start pattern )...it's all very simple.
 
If I said to a materialist "prove that the world causes itself" they'd rightly say I was asking for the impossible.
If self-causation is impossible, then what caused God?


However my theory is falsifiable if you can demonstrate that something complex and predictable can be constructed mindlessly...
It can. It's called "evolution." In fact, pretty much every process described by physics, chemistry and biology can demonstrate the development of complex and predictable objects without a designer.


so ,for instance, if someone could do a Rubik's Cube without ever looking at it ...so doing it by shear chance.
Of course you can solve a Rubik's Cube using a completely random process. It will take a long, long, long time, but there is no question that given enough turns, it can be solved by a series of random steps.

Plus, we have lots of evidence of 100% natural processes doing complex things like developing new species without anyone or anything actually manipulating the process.


People are ridiculed for believing in God all the time...atheists get an easy ride (at least in the West).
Yes, it's not like 1% of Westerners are materialists, and 70% are Christian, and the remaining 29% are religious or spiritual.... :roll:

Spare us the victim BS.


I'm doing everything required to prove that God is at least a possibility...
No, you're not. You are asserting the existence of a deity without citing any evidence, or acknowledging any potential contradictions or inconsistencies in the articulation of the deity.

You haven't even identified the deity, let alone pointed out any properties other than an unfalsifiable (and, apparently, inert) claim that "it makes thoughts happen!"
 
I came to this idea on my own....
Right, it's not like it has been floating around for 300+ years. Oh wait, it has. George Berkeley's idealism dates back to the 18th century. Never mind....


however it seems that I am not alone and those that think the idea is daft need to appreciate that there are some highly qualified people who are at least beginning to explore the possibility that the Universe is a conscious construct...
lol

Or, you don't understand what you are reading.

Some of the ideas discussed in that article are downright loopy -- such as stars orbiting faster because they are conscious, and... want to orbit faster? I guess younger stars are in a hurry? All of them? That's the kind of theory you want to align with? :confused:

Most of those individuals are proposing panpsychism, which is basically the idea that "everything is conscious." That is NOT the same thing as saying "the entire universe has a unified consciousness" or that "God makes you think." But it is no surprise that the differences are lost on you. Any port in a storm....

I also have to add, if your philosophy leads you to the belief that rocks -- which don't move and don't have central nervous systems at all -- are conscious, you really ought to rethink your assumptions.
 
Right, it's not like it has been floating around for 300+ years. Oh wait, it has. George Berkeley's idealism dates back to the 18th century. Never mind....



lol

Or, you don't understand what you are reading.

Some of the ideas discussed in that article are downright loopy -- such as stars orbiting faster because they are conscious, and... want to orbit faster? I guess younger stars are in a hurry? All of them? That's the kind of theory you want to align with? :confused:

Most of those individuals are proposing panpsychism, which is basically the idea that "everything is conscious." That is NOT the same thing as saying "the entire universe has a unified consciousness" or that "God makes you think." But it is no surprise that the differences are lost on you. Any port in a storm....

I also have to add, if your philosophy leads you to the belief that rocks -- which don't move and don't have central nervous systems at all -- are conscious, you really ought to rethink your assumptions.

It was an amusing article, along the lines of children playing let's pretend.
 
Let us pretend that the universe is conscious. So what and then what? Do we throw a party?
 
I think you've got this completely arse about face.
I really don't.


I'm saying this existence is akin to a program.
It isn't. And it is utterly impossible for you to point to even the tiniest scrap of evidence in the world which supports that claim.


God didn't make birds like a sculptor carves a statue, He developed a program that gave rise to the species.
And again: We can look at evolution and see how it can work without a designer, thus positing the existence of a designer is superfluous and unnecessary. Your own criteria, demanding parsimony, ought to require you to drop your nonsensical position. Instead, you violate your own criteria in order to demand that a deity exists.


The claim that God exists is necessary for the claim that this existence is like a program...
And like I said, that is begging the question.

How about this? Prove that you are not merely a program running in The Matrix, right now. And then prove that the entity which created The Matrix is some sort of impossible super-entity, rather than a bunch of human-like computer programmers. Have fun with that.


We all sense our freedom to choose between available options....
Yeah, that doesn't mean jack ****.

For example, most people have a subjective experience of a unified consciousness, but that is 100% wrong. The human brain doesn't work that way. You have numerous competing cognitive processes, constantly conflicting and/or cooperating. We didn't find that out by "sensing it," but by empirical research conducted by biologists, neurologists, cognitive scientists, psychologists and so on.

And again! You can assert that "I have free will" until you are blue in the face, but your own unfalsifiable claims make it impossible for you to truly know that. There is no reason whatsoever why this Matrix God can't manipulate you into believing whatever it wants you to believe, and make you think it is your idea. There is nothing you can say to rule out that possibility.

This is, again, why your position is ultimately self-defeating. It's a bunch of unfalsifiable claims, based on how you want things to work. But there is no evidence you can apply to rule out all sorts of scenarios that you personally dislike -- e.g. brain in a vat, or that you're in The Matrix, or that you are being tormented by a Cartesian demon, or that Brahma is real, and so on.


we can believe that a God is playing us like chess pieces but I'll go with what I feel at a personal level...
lol

Well, you can believe whatever you want. But "what you feel at a personal level" is not proof of anything. All it does is show how you can't separate your own emotions from your intellectual processes.


I've already shown that this theory can be falsified...do a Rubik's cube without ever looking at it (no peeking or knowing the start pattern )...it's all very simple.
Again: Yes, you can easily solve a Rubik's Cube using a 100% random process. You could just set up a bunch of robots to turn the Cube in a random pattern. It would almost certainly take a long time, but there is absolutely no reason why it can't work.
 
Hold on to your hats! The Matrix is not a documentary.
 
If self-causation is impossible, then what caused God?



It can. It's called "evolution." In fact, pretty much every process described by physics, chemistry and biology can demonstrate the development of complex and predictable objects without a designer.



Of course you can solve a Rubik's Cube using a completely random process. It will take a long, long, long time, but there is no question that given enough turns, it can be solved by a series of random steps.

Plus, we have lots of evidence of 100% natural processes doing complex things like developing new species without anyone or anything actually manipulating the process.



Yes, it's not like 1% of Westerners are materialists, and 70% are Christian, and the remaining 29% are religious or spiritual.... :roll:

Spare us the victim BS.



No, you're not. You are asserting the existence of a deity without citing any evidence, or acknowledging any potential contradictions or inconsistencies in the articulation of the deity.

You haven't even identified the deity, let alone pointed out any properties other than an unfalsifiable (and, apparently, inert) claim that "it makes thoughts happen!"

I think I see why you are getting this so utterly wrong...

First things first. In this theory God exists not because He is caused but because nothingness is an impossibility. The simplest thing (ITT) that can (and therefore must) exist is will...that will is God. One of your first mistakes is to assume God is complex, He need not be. What God creates is not a part of Him ,but it is within Him (like you are not all of your thoughts...if you think of a rock that does not imply that that thought of a rock is part of you). So , like you can create a simple program that leads to complex structures so can God. That's your first mistake dealt with.

Your second mistake is that you are assuming evolution stems from a mindless material background...thus totally ignoring my whole argument that only thought exists and that there is no requirement for any sort of mindless material. You simply can not use evolution as proof of a mindless process ...you can believe it sure, but you have no proof that the laws of nature that create evolution are mindless in origin. My argument that the laws of nature are akin to a program is more parsimonious (your favourite word lol) since it does not require the creation of an unproven mindless construct ...it simply requires thoughts and collections of thoughts called beings. The Being that encompasses the whole of reality is God.

You accept that even something basic like a Rubik's cube would take a long long time to do without sight of it...well I'll tell you this I guarantee it would take longer than you imagine because you'd also need to know when to stop. You might accomplish it given billions of years...so how long would a Rubik's cube as complex as the Universe take ? I'll tell you, longer than the billions of years it seems to have taken...unless it was intentionally directed.

It is clear that intention is a good explanation of reality...it may not be the cause, but anyone with an ounce of intellect can see that intention would certainly help ...and we have plenty of evidence that intention can do such things on a smaller scale.
 
Right, it's not like it has been floating around for 300+ years. Oh wait, it has. George Berkeley's idealism dates back to the 18th century. Never mind....



lol

Or, you don't understand what you are reading.

Some of the ideas discussed in that article are downright loopy -- such as stars orbiting faster because they are conscious, and... want to orbit faster? I guess younger stars are in a hurry? All of them? That's the kind of theory you want to align with? :confused:

Most of those individuals are proposing panpsychism, which is basically the idea that "everything is conscious." That is NOT the same thing as saying "the entire universe has a unified consciousness" or that "God makes you think." But it is no surprise that the differences are lost on you. Any port in a storm....

I also have to add, if your philosophy leads you to the belief that rocks -- which don't move and don't have central nervous systems at all -- are conscious, you really ought to rethink your assumptions.

I'm fully aware of what the article does or doesn't do...I used it to show that science is starting to explore the role of consciousness in terms of its requirement for reality.

I also enjoy the fact that I have come to the same conclusion (years ago) about reality as Berkeley...great minds think alike hey!:lamo

I do not think rocks are conscious...I think they are consciously created.
 
Hold on to your hats! The Matrix is not a documentary.

In this theory the Matrix idea would be false because there'd be an alternative materialist reality behind the dream...that just adds another layer of unnecessary complexity...hello, who's this chap coming over the horizon...oh, it's Mister Occam...he says you can drop the materialist garbage...it serves no purpose.Cheers mate.
 
I think I see why you are getting this so utterly wrong...
:roll:

No, dude. All you're doing is repeating the same errors. You repeatedly violate your own criteria. You keep begging the question in the same way. You keep positing the same unfalsifiable claims. You obviously don't understand how evolution works, and can't explain why a "designer" would use random processes that guarantee regular failures. Your ignorance of theological and philosophical precedents is glaring.

Your repetition of the same crap is not an argument.

I.e. bored now.
 
:roll:

No, dude. All you're doing is repeating the same errors. You repeatedly violate your own criteria. You keep begging the question in the same way. You keep positing the same unfalsifiable claims. You obviously don't understand how evolution works, and can't explain why a "designer" would use random processes that guarantee regular failures. Your ignorance of theological and philosophical precedents is glaring.

Your repetition of the same crap is not an argument.

I.e. bored now.

Sometimes you have to be prepared to repeat yourself so that those who clearly do not understand the gist of this theory can maybe , just maybe, grasp the consequences.You haven't obviously...so to repeat just one point for you..in this theory the laws of nature are like a program so using evolution as an argument against this theory is null and void...but you can't get your head around that so maybe it's for the best that you give up lol.

For others that may read this...a program like the one governing this reality (the laws of nature) requires a programmer. A programmer made purely of thought (a Being/programmer is simply a collection of thoughts received, directed and generated by intention) creating a reality made purely by thought is trillions of times simpler than a mind independent reality causing this highly complex, predictable universe by sheer happenstance...for starters it requires only one substance (thought) and secondly it explains why this place is machine/program like in its predictable, balanced nature. Hope that helps .
 
Sometimes you have to be prepared to repeat yourself so that those who clearly do not understand the gist of this theory....
No, dude. I was reading about Berkeley and Brahma when you were probably still in short pants. I know what you're saying. It's just wrong.


you can't get your head around that so maybe it's for the best that you give up lol.
:roll:

No, dude. I understand exactly what you're saying. I understood it before you even said it, because nothing you're saying is new to me. My disagreement is not based in a lack of understanding, it's based on you simply being wrong, and you refusing to see the errors that I repeatedly point out to you.
 
No, dude. I was reading about Berkeley and Brahma when you were probably still in short pants. I know what you're saying. It's just wrong.



:roll:

No, dude. I understand exactly what you're saying. I understood it before you even said it, because nothing you're saying is new to me. My disagreement is not based in a lack of understanding, it's based on you simply being wrong, and you refusing to see the errors that I repeatedly point out to you.

Lol, "no, dude" does not cover your ass buddy! You have blatantly misunderstood or misrepresented my idea...multiple times! You have used evolution as an argument against this theory. I have clearly stated that in this theory the laws of nature (of which evolution is a part) are akin to a program so you can not use evolution as PROOF that mindlessness can create complex balanced systems.

Why can't people like you just accept that others may have a better understanding of this subject, after all , for all your supposed "understanding" you clearly ain't getting it lol.
 
No, dude. I was reading about Berkeley and Brahma when you were probably still in short pants. I know what you're saying. It's just wrong.



:roll:

No, dude. I understand exactly what you're saying. I understood it before you even said it, because nothing you're saying is new to me. My disagreement is not based in a lack of understanding, it's based on you simply being wrong, and you refusing to see the errors that I repeatedly point out to you.

I was reading about that in the 1960s. Probably before he was born.
 
I was reading about that in the 1960s. Probably before he was born.

I was born in '67 ...the year of love man...

Anyway , no one has yet shown why this universe is not a program type event....that would certainly be a simpler explanation of reality. It would be simpler because only one substance would exist (thought...God would be made of thought too), also it could mean that only that which is perceived would need to exist (trillions upon trillions of less bits of information required compared to a material universe) and it fits in with the fact that we know intention is required if we develop a simulation of reality...so a programmer is a natural explanation of a program.

This is all straight forward stuff, I'm amazed you chaps can't understand it.
 
I was born in '67 ...the year of love man...

Anyway , no one has yet shown why this universe is not a program type event....that would certainly be a simpler explanation of reality. It would be simpler because only one substance would exist (thought...God would be made of thought too), also it could mean that only that which is perceived would need to exist (trillions upon trillions of less bits of information required compared to a material universe) and it fits in with the fact that we know intention is required if we develop a simulation of reality...so a programmer is a natural explanation of a program.

This is all straight forward stuff, I'm amazed you chaps can't understand it.

You mistake simplistic for simple.
 
Back
Top Bottom