God in the government (1 Viewer)

[conserv.pat15]

Do you think God should be mentioned in our government?..... for example, "under God" in the Pledge, or Nativity scenes, or displaying the Ten Commandments at a courthouse... ect. ect.

 

[AndrewC]

I don't think the concept of a God should be part of our government. I feel it belittles non-christian ideals and beliefs.

 

[conserv.pat15]

I think that the founding fathers did NOT intend to keep God out of the government. God should be in the Pledge, Nativity scenes should be legal in government buildings, and the Ten Commandments should be allowed to be displayed in government buildings. There is nothing in the constitution that bans these types of things.

 

[Alex]

I think that the founding fathers did NOT intend to keep God out of the government. God should be in the Pledge, Nativity scenes should be legal in government buildings, and the Ten Commandments should be allowed to be displayed in government buildings. There is nothing in the constitution that bans these types of things.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

If our founding fathers wanted "god" involved in our government, then why wasn't that stated or merely implied in the Constitution?

 

[tryreading]

I think that the founding fathers did NOT intend to keep God out of the government. God should be in the Pledge, Nativity scenes should be legal in government buildings, and the Ten Commandments should be allowed to be displayed in government buildings. There is nothing in the constitution that bans these types of things.

This is a non-issue. God is everywhere in the government, in speeches, in writings, in the heads of the religious people in government. Those who are religious rely on their beliefs to guide them and on God to bless them every day. This has always existed in all levels of our government and always will. This cannot be removed, can't be kept out of government, and should not be. The Founding Fathers would be fine with this, I think.

However, when you are a judge who installs a massive monument displaying the Ten Commandments in your courtroom you have endorsed religion in a state building, which is wrong in this country, and it has to be removed. 'Under God' can be in the Pledge that you personally recite, it has not been taken from you, but it can't be in the Pledge that public school students are led to recite. Nativity scenes are not legal in a state building, and are not necessary, as these buildings are not churches.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I don't think the concept of a God should be part of our government. I feel it belittles non-christian ideals and beliefs.

Doesnt abolishing God from every aspect of government 'belittle' Christian ideals and beliefs?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

If our founding fathers wanted "god" involved in our government, then why wasn't that stated or merely implied in the Constitution?

The establishment Clause was meant to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. The Founders came from a country that had seen great problems rise from the practice of having a State Religion, and they wanted to prevent the same from happening here.

General references to God by the government do not create a state religion, nor do they keep anyone from practicing their religion as they please. An Atheist may very well be offended by the words "under God" in the Pledge -- but it must be remembered that while you do have the right to practice your religion as you see fit, you do not have the right to be free from being offended.

 

[conserv.pat15]

The establishment Clause was meant to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. The Founders came from a country that had seen great problems rise from the practice of having a State Religion, and they wanted to prevent the same from happening here.

General references to God by the government do not create a state religion, nor do they keep anyone from practicing their religion as they please. An Atheist may very well be offended by the words "under God" in the Pledge -- but it must be remembered that while you do have the right to practice your religion as you see fit, you do not have the right to be free from being offended.

Correct!

The establishment clause is meant to keep the government from establishing a state religion. Also, the fact that God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independance(which came before the constitution) proves that it was not intended to keep God out of the government.

 

[Alex]

The establishment Clause was meant to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. The Founders came from a country that had seen great problems rise from the practice of having a State Religion, and they wanted to prevent the same from happening here.

General references to God by the government do not create a state religion, nor do they keep anyone from practicing their religion as they please. An Atheist may very well be offended by the words "under God" in the Pledge -- but it must be remembered that while you do have the right to practice your religion as you see fit, you do not have the right to be free from being offended.

This would be a great response, but it has one big flaw. If the founding fathers meant for religion to be in government, then why exclude it from our Constitution?

 

[Alex]

Correct!

The establishment clause is meant to keep the government from establishing a state religion. Also, the fact that God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independance(which came before the constitution) proves that it was not intended to keep God out of the government.

The Declaration of Independence is just that, a declaration. It is not law. Our Constitution is law and does not contain anything that states religion should be included in government. It does do even imply it.

 

[Engimo]

Doesnt abolishing God from every aspect of government 'belittle' Christian ideals and beliefs?

Doesn't including God in any aspect of government belittle non-Christian ideals and beliefs?

Why do Christians feel they have an inherent right to be included in the government. Not all of the country is Christian, you know.

 

[conserv.pat15]

The Declaration of Independence is just that, a declaration. It is not law. Our Constitution is law and does not contain anything that states religion should be included in government. It does do even imply it.

Where in the Constitution does it say that religion can not be in the government? All it says is that the government can not establish a state religion. Separation of Church and State is not in the Constitution anywhere!

 

[Engimo]

Where in the Constitution does it say that religion can not be in the government? All it says is that the government can not establish a state religion. Separation of Church and State is not in the Constitution anywhere!

The government cannot "respect an establishment of religion". That means that the government cannot endorse any religion - says the interpretation of the Supreme Court.

 

[Stace]

Where in the Constitution does it say that religion can not be in the government? All it says is that the government can not establish a state religion. Separation of Church and State is not in the Constitution anywhere!

You've obviously never read the Danbury Baptist Church letters, have you?

Here's a site to get you started:

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

 

[conserv.pat15]

The government cannot "respect an establishment of religion". That means that the government cannot endorse any religion - says the interpretation of the Supreme Court.

I think you are misinterpreting the establishment clause. The establishment clause is there to keep the government from saying a particular religion is now the religion of the country.

 

[conserv.pat15]

You've obviously never read the Danbury Baptist Church letters, have you?

Here's a site to get you started:

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Can you show me where the exact phrase "separation of Church and State" appears in the Constitution?

 

[Engimo]

I think you are misinterpreting the establishment clause. The establishment clause is there to keep the government from saying a particular religion is now the religion of the country.

No, I think that you are. The Supreme Court sides with me on this one, sorry.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/estabinto.htm

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In general, the Court has demonstrated a willingness to strike down any practices that might be likely to be perceived either as coercive or as a state endorsement of religion.[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Engimo]

Can you show me where the exact phrase "separation of Church and State" appears in the Constitution?

No one is claiming that the exact phrase appears in the Constitution. The principle of Separation of Church and State is contained within the Establishment Clause.

 

[Stace]

No one is claiming that the exact phrase appears in the Constitution. The principle of Separation of Church and State is contained within the Establishment Clause.

Thank you, Engimo, you beat me to it :mrgreen:

 

[kal-el]

This would be a great response, but it has one big flaw. If the founding fathers meant for religion to be in government, then why exclude it from our Constitution?

Yep, maybe god should be in our government... IF this god fella actaully sat down and physically wrote the US Constitution.

 

[conserv.pat15]

No, I think that you are. The Supreme Court sides with me on this one, sorry.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/estabinto.htm

The Supreme Court can also be wrong and is not perfect... if they were perfect, then past decisions would never be overturned. But decisions have been overturned.

 

[Engimo]

The Supreme Court can also be wrong and is not perfect... if they were perfect, then past decisions would never be overturned. But decisions have been overturned.

So? Until you can show a valid reason as to why the Establishment Clause does not prohibit government endorsement of religion, I think I'm going to take about 100 years of Supreme Court rulings over your opinion on the matter.

 

[johns]

It is funny, you seem to at least know how to read the constitution word for word. Please read this, word for word:

On January 1, 1802, in response to the letter from the Danbury Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

Gentlemen:

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which are so good to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessings of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

Thomas Jefferson

Now, go ahead and continue to believe that your god is the only god and all other non-christians will perish in some large fire.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Why do Christians feel they have an inherent right to be included in the government. Not all of the country is Christian, you know.

You're missing the point.
The "they'll be offended if they are excluded" argument applies to Christians, too.

Its OK to offend a Christian, but not a Muslim ot Atheist, eh?

 

[M14 Shooter]

So? Until you can show a valid reason as to why the Establishment Clause does not prohibit government endorsement of religion, I think I'm going to take about 100 years of Supreme Court rulings over your opinion on the matter.

"Endoresement" is a fairly narrow word. Does "In God We Trust" endorse a particular religion? Does the recognition of a generic deity "endorse" a particular religion?

And here are the real questions:
-Does the recognition or endorsement of a generic, non-specific deity qualify as the "establishment" of a religion?
-Does the recognition or endorsement of a generic, non-specific deity prevent people from worshipping in a manner of their choosing?

If the answer to the above is "no", then there is no violation of the 1st amendment.