OK so now the union retirement contracts are Bloated. Says who? I doubt you'll find many union retirees who would agree with you. But again, you "feel" like they are bloated because their competition doesn't have these "bloated costs"?Where did those legacy cots come from? Bloated retirement deals made with the union...
Really? I think maybe you should take a history lesson. ALL nations have tariffs. This includes the USA which has had tariffs since it's founding.:roll: Take economics or learn history. Tariffs are terrible ideas.
Let's leave the union out for a second and make a analogy. Let's say you own a hardware store and you have 5 employees that you pay quite well with good benefits. You're making a profit and living a higher standard of living than those employees, not outrageously better but better, after all you are the own and risk taker.I believe that is what is called 'building a better mouse trap'
better cars, lower costs, better profit margins
I do not keep up with these kind of things but i remember my father telling me that the Camry was the #1 stolen car for many years, because it was the #1 car sold in america
if you build a better product teh rest deserve to die
Unfortunately you've been fooled by the Reagan Legacy Project. We started seeing these declines and problems BECAUSE of what Reagan started... Actually some of it started with Nixon... HMOs anyone.Know that that means?
It means we need to go back to what Reagan did and repeat it. All the ills you're talking about came into being AFTER The Great One left office and the liberals resumed polluting the seats of power.
Yeah, your anecdotal evidence and generalization must be the problem. I've never heard of a nonunion employee being lazy or taking advantage of an hourly wage... :roll:ask any union member
they pull the new guy to the side real quick if he works too fast
why is it, when i lived in NY every union worker was usually just standing around on the job site
did i just happen to drive by on one of their ridiculously negotiated coffee breaks despite it occuring at all hours of the day
what a ****ty exampleLet's leave the union out for a second and make a analogy. Let's say you own a hardware store and you have 5 employees that you pay quite well with good benefits. You're making a profit and living a higher standard of living than those employees, not outrageously better but better, after all you are the own and risk taker.
Now let's say that a foreign owned hardware store opens up across town. But they hire 10 illegal immigrants who work part time at 40% less than your employees, no benefits and they sell the same shovels only 20% less than you can sell them. Now, you have a choice
Yeah, your anecdotal evidence and generalization must be the problem. I've never heard of a nonunion employee being lazy or taking advantage of an hourly wage... :roll:
Interfering with the free matket only delays the time it takes for the free market to resolve economic issues in a positive, sustainable manner.
The Obama (et al) are far more interested in shaping and molding the economy into their own socialist image than getting it back on the track to prospertity.
Then I guess what you're saying is that if labor costs were equal then GM would still be going into bankruptcy. Yes?
Well here we have one con saying the product is fine and not the issue. The issue being labor costs. I disagree, the Big 3 made many product mistakes. Their problems are BOTH lack of product and resource vision as well as labor costs.GM is the number one in unit sales in the world; I don't think it is a bad product issue. This is purely the cost to do business; they sell TONS of cars and more units of pickups than most of the Toyota lines combined.
Yeah, because we have cheap labor (they don't open plants in Detroit now do they? No.) And part of that is that they don't have to cover healthcare costs here.In addition, I keep hearing this absurd argument that “others” having their healthcare costs subsidized, as with many other European factories yet many have relocated plants here because it is CHEAPER to build the cars here.
That's absurd. The people of foreign countries pay taxes to their government which then subsidizes the healthcare cost of that nations corporations in our country. Why? Because we are the worlds largest consumer market.There is NO such thing as "subsidized" healthcare unless you are an illegal alien or dirt poor; someone has to pay the bill therefore the society is taxed heavily for this convenience of Government mismanaged healthcare and as such, labor costs are HIGHER as are their healthcare costs.
More nonsensical neocon corporatist propaganda. Need an organ transplant? Waiting list... If national healthcare is so horrible then why do most of the industrialized and progressive nations have it and have had it for decades?Theirs are cheaper you say? Not really; why do you think there is a shortage of specialists and limitations on certain types of care and long waiting lines. Their Governments manage the skyrocketing costs of their inefficiencies by cutting services, specialization and research and development.
No I understood your point perfectly well which is why you don't like the answer you don't like I responded with.No, you misunderstand my point completely, or are just ignoring it.
Why do you think that is?It's cheaper to live in the south, as you've already admitted. If we can live better on less income than northerners, why should employers pay more. I make a very good living now, but I would be a pauper in New York City.
Why not? Because they increase the cost of housing and then other goods and services as well?? :2wave:And by the way.... we don't want or need any more people moving here.
Yes of course, in your completely unbiased opinion.The people in the Toyota plant here in Kentucky are very happy at their jobs. In contrast, employees at the two ford plants are constantly griping about one thing or another.
Again you must be right because you are unbiased...As a side note, you can eat off the floor of the Toyota plant. After walking through either of the Ford plants, I need to buy a new pair of shoes. That says something for the pride of the people working in the two different plants.
Yeah, because we have cheap labor (they don't open plants in Detroit now do they? No.) And part of that is that they don't have to cover healthcare costs here.
Can you blame them? You're looked upon as a scab. Scabs harm the union effort therefore union workers aren't going to be appreciative of your nonunion status which undermines the employee benefits gained by union negotiations.I hated going to UAW plants. We are there, as guests of the company, working to sort parts to ensure that no mistakes get through, and the workers feel it is there job to treat us like crap because we are not in a union. Hell, we could not even use the nice bathroom, but had these trashy old ones to use for the nonunion visitors.
Isn't Toyota wonderful... not that this has anything to do with the topic.At the Ford plants here in Louisville, you can't park on the property if you have a foreign car. They make you park at least 1/2 mile away. I have a Chevy and the person I was working for didn't think they would let me in, but they did. She warned me that it might get vandalized.
At Toyota, they could care less what you are driving.
Yes we already know that you lack the ability to understand socioeconomic/community ties or empathize. You've already admitted that and we discussed it.If you need a job, and someone 2 or 3 states away offers you one, and you don't take it, you should lose all unemployment/welfare/food stamp benefits....
What you do is MOVE, and associate with your NEW community. See? Your first community cannot afford to feed you forever. Comes a point that you have to DO something for yourself....and in this case it is called moving to a community with more jobs than employees....a community that needs YOU as much as you need it...
It would require an actual response first.No I understood your point perfectly well which is why you don't like the answer you don't like I responded with.
Why do you think that is?
Why not? Because they increase the cost of housing and then other goods and services as well?? :2wave:
Yes of course, in your completely unbiased opinion.
Again you must be right because you are unbiased...
Isn't Toyota wonderful... not that this has anything to do with the topic.
Or more appropriately known as fair competition... If you knew what socialism was you might not make silly comments.Otherwise known as.....socialism.
Let's leave the union out for a second and make a analogy. Let's say you own a hardware store and you have 5 employees that you pay quite well with good benefits. You're making a profit and living a higher standard of living than those employees, not outrageously better but better, after all you are the own and risk taker.
Now let's say that a foreign owned hardware store opens up across town. But they hire 10 illegal immigrants who work part time at 40% less than your employees, no benefits and they sell the same shovels only 20% less than you can sell them. Now, you have a choice, either you can A) go out of business or B) lower your labor cost. What will you do? You're stuck because of unfair competition. So you lower your wages, cut hours, and your good employees eventually quit because they can no longer afford to work for you. So do you hire 10 Illegals and work them part time just to compete? How have you helped your coummunity and the economy?
Your ilk says but now more people can buy the shovels because they are cheaper. Except the people can't afford the shovel because their wages are too low. Now you and your competition are on equal terms. But, the foreign company is no longer making as much profit because you've gotten back some business that they aroginally took from you. So the foreign company lobbies congress to allow the import of cheaper shovels from their home nation. Now they've got you at a disadvantage because you buy shovels from a local shovel plant. What do you do? You stop buying the local made shovel and buy the cheaper imported one. Now the local shovel plant goes out of business. But you can compete with your competition. But of course the foreign company wants to take your customers again so they have their government subsidize healthcare for them. Now they have a lower employment cost again. This time however, you can't do the same thing because your town says NO to SOCIALIZED medicine. We can't have the insurance companies going out of business after all... Who would you pay your premiums to? A doctor? :rofl NO WAY!!
taps foot and whistleswhat a ****ty example
my ilk would shut down the foriegn hardware store and arrest and deport the illegals, and fine the owner/management. I regain 100% market share
:doh:2wave:
This is more con rhetoric. No one said that. Fair competition allows for ideas and superior products and services to make or break a company instead of an artificial advantage for some.We all know that is just not fair for some people to have more than others.
Funny but it gets off track every time we have conservative control. Leze Faire economics do not and have not EVER worked... unless you'd like to be the first to show us a country where it's currently working. :waiting:Interfering with the free matket only delays the time it takes for the free market to resolve economic issues in a positive, sustainable manner.
The Obama (et al) are far more interested in shaping and molding the economy into their own socialist image than getting it back on the track to prospertity.
I know that you feel ashamed that you can't make a coherent argument against the analogy but you'll really turn out to be a better person if you can admit when your positions are wrong.what a ****ty example
my ilk would shut down the foriegn hardware store and arrest and deport the illegals, and fine the owner/management. I regain 100% market share
:doh:2wave:
No. Their government gives them money to cover the cost. It's called subsidizing.Are you claiming that foreign car makers that have plants here in the U.S. don't give their employees heath insurance????
I did answer which is what you responded to. :roll:It would require an actual response first.
Really? What union(s) are you thinking of in NY?Unions have driven up the price of doing business there.
:rofl yeah, better to have stupid people so they can be easily controlled and believe whatever nonsense they are told.. like, your wages are just fine, you don't need a better standard of living.Nope, simply don't want any more "enlightened" people here.
I'm not the one saying things like ford workers bicker while toyota workers are all euphoric...Yes, as opposed to your completely biased opinion.
Ignorance really is blissful eh?Toyota doesn't have anything to do with it. It's the people that work there.
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