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Germany ostracizes dignitary, leading artists who remain cozy with Putin

Rogue Valley

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Germany ostracizes dignitary, leading artists who remain cozy with Putin

iu

Former German Chancellor and Putin crony Gerhard Schröder (1998-2005).

3.5.22
A former German chancellor who was cheered for his refusal to take part in the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and admired for his sweeping reforms of the country's ailing economy has become persona non grata at home because of his unflagging loyalty to Russian President Vladimir Putin. Gerhard Schroeder, who served from 1998 until 2005, when he lost power to Angela Merkel in a close election, quickly pivoted to a post as a well-paid lobbyist for the Russian energy empire tied to his friend Putin. The arrangement raised eyebrows. But it wasn’t until Schroeder, 77, raised criticism of Ukraine’s “saber-rattling” last month, just before Russia's invasion, coupled with his subsequent refusal to distance himself from Putin, that his ties have become a source of national embarrassment. Many who view Schroeder as a Putin apologist are calling from him to step down from his executive positions with Gazprom, Rosneft and the Nord Stream gas pipeline projects. “It’s not alright for Gerhard Schroeder to hold these positions, and I think he should give them up,” Chancellor Olaf Scholz said in a TV interview Thursday, shortly after Schroeder's staff resigned en masse and he was unceremoniously removed from an honorary leadership position at his favorite soccer club, Borussia Dortmund. Schroeder has also been fired from several corporate oversight posts.

Many Germans had long argued that lasting peace and security in Europe were possible only by maintaining close ties to Russia. For some, that meant backing Moscow's contention that NATO was pressing Russia with its agreements to grant membership to nations once within the Kremlin's sphere of Eastern European influence. Many Germans were thus willing to look away from Russia’s 2014 invasion of Crimea and ignore Ukrainian objections over the Nord Stream gas project connecting Russia to Germany beneath the Baltic Sea — pipelines that robbed Ukraine of badly needed gas transit fees. Juergen Hogrefe, who wrote a best-selling 2002 biography on Schroeder, said the ex-chancellor has tarnished his legacy by failing to distance himself from Putin after the war started — unfathomable behavior to the millions of Germans who thought wars in Europe would never happen again and who are now widely backing their government’s rush to reequip its armed forces, polls show. Despite the worsening ostracism, there are some in Germany, . especially in Schroeder's center-left Social Democrat party, who harbor hopes that he might be able to use his influence with Putin to help establish a ceasefire or even peace. "I think it’s an illusion to think that Schroeder has any influence at all over Putin now, He turned himself into a ‘useful idiot’ for Putin and ruined his own reputation. It’s doubtful that there’s any role for Schroeder. He’s yesterday’s man.”


I've complained about the wannabe oligarch Schroeder for at least a decade.

Germany is finally waking up now that Angela Merkel is gone.
 

Jkca1

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Sweet Karma.
 

code1211

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Germany ostracizes dignitary, leading artists who remain cozy with Putin

iu

Former German Chancellor and Putin crony Gerhard Schröder (1998-2005).




I've complained about the wannabe oligarch Schroeder for at least a decade.

Germany is finally waking up now that Angela Merkel is gone.

As a country today, the US is on the wrong side of history. So is all of Europe.

We are diminished by the act of trying to not soil our hands as we bath in the sewage of cowardice.
 

joluoto

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Germany's politics was a holdover from the late Cold War, with cautious but steady relations with Moscow, this intensified in the 90s with talks about increased energy cooperation and crystalized in the early 2000s with Nordstream 1. The line held by Kohl, Schröder and Merkel is no more.

However Germany is still in identity conundrum, Germany doesn't know what it wants to be. The Germans reject the idea that they are a Great Power, due to it being tied to the World Wars and the Nazi regime. But Germany is a Great Power, no matter how much they don't want to be one.
 

Tangmo

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Germany's politics was a holdover from the late Cold War, with cautious but steady relations with Moscow, this intensified in the 90s with talks about increased energy cooperation and crystalized in the early 2000s with Nordstream 1. The line held by Kohl, Schröder and Merkel is no more.

However Germany is still in identity conundrum, Germany doesn't know what it wants to be. The Germans reject the idea that they are a Great Power, due to it being tied to the World Wars and the Nazi regime. But Germany is a Great Power, no matter how much they don't want to be one.
Don't forget Willy Brandt who started the Ostpolitik sellout to Russia by the SPD. You can be comforted now that the Traffic Light coalition government in Berlin has decided the outstanding questions you raise -- in total favor for NATO, EU, USA. It's final now if you don't know already.

Brandt of SPD fell to his knees at the war memorial in Warsaw presenting a seriously guilty and profoundly apologetic Germany. I'd bet he thought it would ease Poland's demands for compensation, but it did not do so.

That's when the German elites of government and corporatism started after the big bucks of doing business in Russia. It culminated in the now failed Nord Stream 2 pipeline by which a well developed Russo-German Geostrategic Axis of Energy would have lorded over Europe. Russian muscle and German technology and cold efficiency.

Now with Russia making war in the middle of Europe and against an innocent fledging democracy, Biden and NATO SecGen Jens Stoltenberg succeeded in reading the Riot Act to the new chancellor in Berlin. The SPD of Chancellor Olaf Scholz had to break with Russia and repair his country's relations with NATO led by the USA. While Scholz is radical enough in his about face, he was impelled by the coalition partners the Greens and the Free Democrats who have long advocated for a stronger NATO against Russia. The red-black, black-red coalitions had no such pressures on 'em.

An additional effect throughout a coalition doubting German population is to show that SPD, Greens, FDP are all on the same page from here on out. Bad news for the Russian Elite Captured German political-industrial complex in Berlin and Frankfurt. This will cost both Germans and Russians dearly yet the Germans continue to accept that they are still due punishments for their miserable past. Russians conversely have learned nothing from their own miserable 20th century that, moreover, Ras-Putin is extending into the 21st. While Germany is born anew now, Russia gets worse than it's ever been whether czarist or communist.
 

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^^^^^^^^

Yet just another Germany bashing rant of rabid proportions, with the pompous verbosity encountered in no way serving to conceal the utter ignorance on Germany, its postwar history, the composition of its people's outlook and the political outlook born from its geo-political position in the cold war of facing the grindstone in its particular rock and hard place scenario.

There are plenty of reasons to criticize Germany for from 1945 onwards, yet the poster appears not to know a single one of them.

The address of Brandt kneeling in Warsaw being, as just one example, so stupid in its assessment of reason that it requires no further address than calling it just that.
 

Chagos

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Germany ostracizes dignitary, leading artists who remain cozy with Putin

iu

Former German Chancellor and Putin crony Gerhard Schröder (1998-2005).




I've complained about the wannabe oligarch Schroeder for at least a decade.

Germany is finally waking up now that Angela Merkel is gone.
Schröder is not only a wannabe, he's also a has-been.

One that the German people, from all I get to hear, are in their majority totally disgusted with.

Most importantly since long before this current crisis.

That there have always been parts of his party refusing to disassociate themselves from him remains undisputed, yet they represent neither the German people nor the SPD as such.

Unprincipled SoBs enriching themselves via the tool of past political influence (not to mention present) garner little sympathy anywhere in the world.
 

joluoto

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I think Scröder's most problematic thing was that his support for Nordstream was all about enriching himself, he bought shares in the project immediately after his Chancellorship was over, and approving Nordstream was one of his last acts as Chancellor.
 

Chagos

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Germany's politics was a holdover from the late Cold War, with cautious but steady relations with Moscow, this intensified in the 90s with talks about increased energy cooperation and crystalized in the early 2000s with Nordstream 1. The line held by Kohl, Schröder and Merkel is no more.
Just to add that Germany (AND Austria) were already receiving Russian (piped) gas at the end of the 1970s. A result of a deal by which Russia received German seamless pipes ( something it could not produce by itself at the time) in exchange for gas deliveries (thru those very pipes, of course).

However Germany is still in identity conundrum, Germany doesn't know what it wants to be. The Germans reject the idea that they are a Great Power, due to it being tied to the World Wars and the Nazi regime. But Germany is a Great Power, no matter how much they don't want to be one.
At the height of the cold war Germany certainly knew very well what it wanted to be, namely NOT the nuclear playing field it was designed as by both sides of the combative coin. With all possible Russian incursions westwards being planned to storm thru Germany's Fulda gap, NATO response logically was to make not only that part of Germany the area of tactical nuclear counter-strikes, what with NATO forces of tanks and other units predicted to be hopelessly outnumbered in any sense of "conventional" warfare, but to lay waste to the whole country as the price that simply would have to be paid.

NOT France, NOT the UK and most certainly NOT the US.

So it is (was) no wonder that, contrary to overall cynical NATO assessment, Germany sought alternative paths.

Of course this developed, as you rightly say, into a policy of "heck, we're getting on so well together, why discontinue?"

The cold war scenario described above having become somewhat obsolete with time was then indeed conveniently overlooked in face of the financial advantages meanwhile secured, but the refusal to take the role of "Great Power" was still heavily encouraged by Germany's neighbors.

Last but certainly not least by the UK and France, both of them vociferously opposing German (re-)unification at the time until they were brow-beaten into acquiescence by the US.

The primary fallacy of Germany has since been to naively believe that she could continue in the comfort zone of "wash my skin but ferchrissake don't get it wet".

Meanwhile having led to any military it holds having become totally useless by constant cuts in financing over the years, all on account of placing the value of low debt above everything else.

And that latter failure applies to practically any other field, with government bodies actually still faxing documents to each other on account of digitalization being third world standard by now. Edit: I'll correct that last statement on account of most third world countries having even better standards than Germany can currently show.
 

Litwin

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Tangmo

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^^^^^^^^

Yet just another Germany bashing rant of rabid proportions, with the pompous verbosity encountered in no way serving to conceal the utter ignorance on Germany, its postwar history, the composition of its people's outlook and the political outlook born from its geo-political position in the cold war of facing the grindstone in its particular rock and hard place scenario.

There are plenty of reasons to criticize Germany for from 1945 onwards, yet the poster appears not to know a single one of them.

The address of Brandt kneeling in Warsaw being, as just one example, so stupid in its assessment of reason that it requires no further address than calling it just that.
No matter how you slice that it's still baloney. With sauerkraut.

Indeed it's the constant pattern of zero specifics that might prove the thesis.

The first paragraph is the repeating proof, ie, a drive by hit and run burst of arbitrary pronouncements and summary declarations. Never anything specific. Only constant bellyaching by the lame and lazy.
 

german hick

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Just to add that Germany (AND Austria) were already receiving Russian (piped) gas at the end of the 1970s. A result of a deal by which Russia received German seamless pipes ( something it could not produce by itself at the time) in exchange for gas deliveries (thru those very pipes, of course). [...]

Thanks Chagos - to be honest I become too lazey to deal with his verbal diarrhoea
 

Tangmo

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That there have always been parts of his party refusing to disassociate themselves from him [Schroeder] remains undisputed, yet they represent neither the German people nor the SPD as such.
The pattern of those who are unaccepting of criticism is to deny and then to mislead while making ad hominem throwaways.

It's because some haven't any arguments while yet others have no tolerance.

Germans Overwhelmingly Support Nord Stream 2 Gas Pipeline​


January 25, 2019

According to the results of a survey commissioned by the RTL Media Group, nearly 73 percent of Germany support the construction of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipelines.

Even though German Chancellor Angela Merkel has repeatedly defended the Nord Stream 2 project as a purely economic venture, debates still rage over whether the project is genuinely commercial or a political tool that will increase Europe’s dependence on Russia. “Nord Stream 2 and an expanded Turkish Stream pipeline seek to deepen dependence (of Europe) rather than strengthen security,” said Francis Fannon, the Assistant Secretary for the Bureau of Energy Resources at the U.S. Department of State. “They are not commercial projects; they are political tools,” Fannon said
. Nearly 67 percent of Germans who participated in the survey stressed that the pipeline does not pose any threat to Germany, while 16 percent of respondents said that Germany can do without Nord stream 2.

 
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Tangmo

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Thanks Chagos - to be honest I become too lazey to deal with his verbal diarrhoea
It's good to see you're being honest.

Despite the fact you are wrong.

Its not a very effective one-two tap however.
 

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No matter how you slice that it's still baloney. With sauerkraut.

Indeed it's the constant pattern of zero specifics that might prove the thesis.

The first paragraph is the repeating proof, ie, a drive by hit and run burst of arbitrary pronouncements and summary declarations. Never anything specific. Only constant bellyaching by the lame and lazy.

Mindless prattle ....
 

Chagos

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Large support for NS2 never equated to support for Schröder, once he showed to become the unprincipled scum who called Putin a spotless democrat.

But when one is as clueless about matters one spouts forth upon as is the poster in question here, intelligent appraisal of what is written cannot be expected.
 

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.................that I usually ignore in the "talking-to-hisself-billboarding-thread" , but seeing how it now overflows into elsewhere..............

It is as it always has been. A thousand words when a short sentence would do + ad homs.
 

Tangmo

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Large support for NS2 never equated to support for Schröder, once he showed to become the unprincipled scum who called Putin a spotless democrat.

But when one is as clueless about matters one spouts forth upon as is the poster in question here, intelligent appraisal of what is written cannot be expected.
Trying and desperately so to disconnect Schroederovsky from Nord Stream 1&2 is a blind fool's errand.

The vast majority of German people as a people supported Nord Stream from the outset in 2012 with NS1 and again starting in 2015 post Crimea/Donbas with NS2. I've seen polls that show Germans support of NS2 in 2016 at 85%. It's only recently with US sanctions and EU High Court of Justice rulings that Germany violates the EU Treaty Charter by supporting a non EU state against EU member states that a poll early last year found support in Germany of NS2 had plunged to 43%. That's still too many unrelenting Russia Huggers however. Many of 'em are in the East btw.

And although Merkelov of CDU defeated Schroederovsky in 2005 each of 'em were already, in the case of Schroederovsky, and then eventually to include Merkelov quickly to become BFF with Ras-Putin against EU, NATO, Europe as a whole, and of course the USA. So I'm accurate to say that given the SPD led by Willy Brandt began all the Russia Hugging, it fell upon the SPD current chancellor Olaf Scholz to undo it. And to the credit of Scholz personally supported by the Greens and Free Democrats it took SPD leading the government to reverse it and reverse it completely, which German Russophiles refuse to recognize or even to mention, preferring instead to engage in ad hominem only.
 

Chagos

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Trying and desperately so to make believe I claimed something that I clearly did NOT (as anyone even remotely possessed of reading comprehension can determine) is a blind fool's errand.

It is also disgustingly dishonest and cannot be hidden in whatever gish gallop of horse manure the so inclined wish to engage in presenting.

The support for NS2 and the lack of it for the guy's unprincipled shenanigans are two completely different issues. It takes much prevarication to try and paint any different picture.

It also demonstrates who here is proceeding up the flagpole and what, in that process, is shown more and more.
 

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Trying and desperately so to make believe I claimed something that I clearly did NOT (as anyone even remotely possessed of reading comprehension can determine) is a blind fool's errand.

It is also disgustingly dishonest and cannot be hidden in whatever gish gallop of horse manure the so inclined wish to engage in presenting.

The support for NS2 and the lack of it for the guy's unprincipled shenanigans are two completely different issues. It takes much prevarication to try and paint any different picture.

It also demonstrates who here is proceeding up the flagpole and what, in that process, is shown more and more.
Dr. Ad Hominem posts again.

No arguments.

No acknowledgements -- that Germany is doubling the NATO 2% of annual GDP budget guidelines and will provide its hitherto feeble armed forces with a booming Eur 100bn one time funding to rebuild it.

It's like I'm the only one among you who watches the news or who even mentions the radically new developments by the German Traffic Light government that is breaking completely and entirely from Russia and realigning with the EU and the US led NATO. That would be realigning with the West of course . Because all I'm getting is rejection and resentment against it to the point of ignoring it while trying ever so hard to shoot the messenger of it. One could think you guyz are trying to hide it while trying fiercely to redirect away from it.
 

Chagos

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post #15 and #18 bear repeating, but the best response here is not to react to this repetitive ranting of having "watched the news" in juxtaposition to someone actually knowing the country, having lived there and speaking its language.

Apologies to the OP for my having contributed to this manure fest even having arisen, while I actually share the disdain for the likes of the Gazprom fluffer and all those like him.
 

Tangmo

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post #15 and #18 bear repeating, but the best response here is not to react to this repetitive ranting of having "watched the news" in juxtaposition to someone actually knowing the country, having lived there and speaking its language.

Apologies to the OP for my having contributed to this manure fest even having arisen, while I actually share the disdain for the likes of the Gazprom fluffer and all those like him.
It's clear you missed it after you wrote it.

You're saying anyone who expresses views and opinions about a country they never lived in or know firsthand, and who doesn't speak the language is an asshat blowhard (kindly see posts #6 & #20). Post #15 that you also cite does not show as such on my page btw, ie, it ain't there. The sequence on my page is 13,14, 16, 17 and so on.

Go figure, eh.
 

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So it could seem I'm the only one the Bundesgang doesn't like because I watch the news and also read; and I'm the guy who even mentions the radically new historic developments by the German Traffic Light government that is breaking completely and entirely from Russia and realigning with the EU and the US led NATO. That would be realigning with the West of course. Because all I'm getting is rejection and resentment against it to the point of the Bundesgang ignoring it while trying ever so hard to shoot the messenger of it. One could think you guyz are trying to hide it while trying fiercely to redirect away from it.

Indeed.

images
 

Chagos

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So I miscounted and one can have a ball with that. Well, enjoy the gotcha moment.

BTW not knowing a country first hand does not preclude from learning about it at all, but those who do have first hand knowledge will also have an edge over those who don't.

That edge may admittedly manifest itself at times in positive bias regarding said country, but that would be more the exception than the rule.

Most usually those that rely on what they read in foreign media biased AGAINST the country, will be at a disadvantage.

The advantage we however have in the West is the far grater abundance of opportunities to read the other side of any story. Provided, that is, if we possess sufficient language skills.

Something that (goes without saying) does not help at all when reading current Russian media, but one can safely assume the opposite of what is stated there to be the actual truth.

That German governments have spent decades of living in la-la-land of "peace brother, so let's cut defense spending on account of Russia not being any threat" is something I've repeatedly mentioned myself.

But as stated above, anyone so inclined can feast on his own gotcha moment of my having miscounted posts.
 
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