Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

Leo · Jul 12, 2014

joG said:
I wrote a short entry here somewhere and gave a number of examples and explanations. I will try to find it.

For the moment a few examples that I am not going to explain in detail right now. They can, however, all be found in the public domain.

- Germany was supplying Qaddafi with a chemical weapons plant until the US went public with the intelligence it had gathered in the crisis known as "Auschwitz in the Sand.
- Germany supplied Syria with the component for its chemical weapons now being destroyed.
- Germany made the Iranian nuclear program possible by supplying technology and apertures.
- By supporting the separatists Genscher triggered the revolts in Yugoslavia with their the ethnic cleansing and other turmoil.
- Schröder supported Putin and Chirac in the run up to the Iraq2 war giving Saddam the backing he thought would allow him to ignore the Security Council resolution and Bush ultimatum to abide by it. This caused Saddam to miscalculate and increased the likelihood of military conflict.
- Germany committed to train the Afghan police. It delayed for domestic reasons in Germany till the project was in jeopardy and the Americans saw themselves forced to take over. This meant that a number of years were lost which allowed criminals to gain a large base. The related problems are still haunting the country.

Thank you for taking the trouble to illustrate your point of view - I appreciate that, and was unaware of the instances you mention.

I have not yet investigated those instances (if, as you say they are available in the public domain, that should be relatively easy,) but at first glance, many appear to be actions of German corporate entities, not necessarily German state policies, and the opposition to our invasion of Iraq was not limited to the Germans. I would have thought such opposition would have been regarded today as excellent foresight, given the cluster-**** which is Iraq today, as the direct result of our actions.

Added to which, I am sure it is possible to draw up an extensive list of US and UK actions and policies which would put the current German shortcomings into the shade.

Grant · Jul 12, 2014

Leo said:
LOL, I guess it does - but do you really consider that McDonalds, Coca Cola, and 'Atlas Shrugged' trump mechanised transport, the printing press, Beethoven, Mahler, Goethe, Schiller and Kant, as contributions to western civilisation?

You're right. The last time I went to Europe all the MacDonalds were empty while the sounds of Mahler and Beethoven filled the streets. Europeans really are a classy lot.

Grant · Jul 12, 2014

Leo said:
Thank you for taking the trouble to illustrate your point of view - I appreciate that, and was unaware of the instances you mention.

I have not yet investigated those instances (if, as you say they are available in the public domain, that should be relatively easy,) but at first glance, many appear to be actions of German corporate entities, not necessarily German state policies, and the opposition to our invasion of Iraq was not limited to the Germans. I would have thought such opposition would have been regarded today as excellent foresight, given the cluster-**** which is Iraq today, as the direct result of our actions.

Added to which, I am sure it is possible to draw up an extensive list of US and UK actions and policies which would put the current German shortcomings into the shade.

Germans have never had a real problem with dictators. Why should Saddam have been any different?

Anyway, Saddam was a piker where genocide was concerned.

Ryan5 · Jul 12, 2014

Andalublue said:
BBC News - Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

I'm guessing that US-German relations aren't in such a good state at the moment. The idea that spying on your friends is just business as usual came as a surprise to Angela Merkel.

What should be Germany's next step?

What should the US reaction to this expulsion be? An apology? Or reprisal?

As an American, I think this is great news.

Germany is its own country. The US needs to stop fighting an intelligence war with Russia already in other peoples countries. It's rude and a waste of money anyways.

Leo · Jul 12, 2014

Grant said:
You're right. The last time I went to Europe all the MacDonalds were empty while the sounds of Mahler and Beethoven filled the streets. Europeans really are a classy lot.

LOL, not sure about the streets, but the last time I was in Munich, I was browsing in a hobby/toy shop for model aero engines, and the music being played was Mozart. I heard at least one kid humming along to the tune. I am here to tell you that playing any form of classical music would clear a hobby shop, and probably a shopping centre, of anyone under 30 in the UK, the USA, or Australia. So autres temps autres mœurs - but I know who are more civilised. :mrgreen:

Grant · Jul 12, 2014

Leo said:
LOL, not sure about the streets, but the last time I was in Munich, I was browsing in a hobby/toy shop for model aero engines, and the music being played was Mozart. I heard at least one kid humming along to the tune. I am here to tell you that playing any form of classical music would clear a hobby shop, and probably a shopping centre, of anyone under 30 in the UK, the USA, or Australia. So autres temps autres mœurs - but I know who are more civilised. :mrgreen:

Mozart? Mozart who?

Leo · Jul 12, 2014

Grant said:
Mozart? Mozart who?

LOL, what it must be to be possessed of such wit - I am impressed! :mrgreen:

joG · Jul 12, 2014

prometeus said:
Post WW II cold war days and now. I am sure you agree that the scope of intelligence activities has changed considerably.

And the reason was the fight against the Soviets and their proxies in the then East Germany. That the West German government was infested with spies is a well known fact and thus the need to spy on members of the government. The current situation is hardly similar and clearly necessitates a different approach and scope. Do you really believe that the German Chancellor could be serving the interests of terrorists?

Indeed, but that is a far cry from them consenting to it. Remember the case of the Israeli spy and how we were up in arms over it. Israel is one of our trusted allies... so is it hypocrisy?

In other words you haven't followed the discussion or forgotten what was said. I really think you should find better arguments or at least arguments that make a minimum of sense.

RabidAlpaca · Jul 12, 2014

Grant said:
Yes, they're probably quite humorous. Maybe a German mime would be the breakthrough they need.

I never said they were funny, I simply corrected you that just because you've never heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist in droves. My wife and her family love German comedians, god knows why.

joG · Jul 12, 2014

RabidAlpaca said:
Huh? Absence of German comedians? There are tons of them, you just don't know them because they... (shocker)... tell jokes in German.

Yes. I once saw Curd Jürgens in Salzburg in Jedermann. Very dark humor, indeed.

joG · Jul 12, 2014

Leo said:
Thank you for taking the trouble to illustrate your point of view - I appreciate that, and was unaware of the instances you mention.

I have not yet investigated those instances (if, as you say they are available in the public domain, that should be relatively easy,) but at first glance, many appear to be actions of German corporate entities, not necessarily German state policies, and the opposition to our invasion of Iraq was not limited to the Germans. I would have thought such opposition would have been regarded today as excellent foresight, given the cluster-**** which is Iraq today, as the direct result of our actions.

Added to which, I am sure it is possible to draw up an extensive list of US and UK actions and policies which would put the current German shortcomings into the shade.

Remember that exports of the types mentioned must be approved by the government and that in the Auschwitz in the Sand for instance case the US had been asking the german government to stop it for two years. And, when you think about it, the fact that the government allowed it to happen in other cases without detecting it in their own country justifies spying in Germany by foreign agencies any day. I mean, enabling a nuclear program for iran!?

Andalublue · Jul 12, 2014

Enjoy!

Dibbler · Jul 12, 2014

Perhaps if we had normalized relations with Germany, instead of the role of occupier, they would actually be our friends and we wouldn't need spies there.

prometeus · Jul 12, 2014

joG said:
In other words you haven't followed the discussion or forgotten what was said. I really think you should find better arguments or at least arguments that make a minimum of sense.

I was not making an argument, merely replying to your question and commenting on your assertion of Germany agreeing for the US to conduct intelligence operations in their soil. It is you who believes that the agreement, which we do not have to read, is some form of "cart blanche" for the US intelligence organizations. My comment was for the purpose of dispelling that notion.

prometeus · Jul 12, 2014

Leo said:
LOL, I guess it does - but do you really consider that McDonalds, Coca Cola, and 'Atlas Shrugged' trump mechanised transport, the printing press, Beethoven, Mahler, Goethe, Schiller and Kant, as contributions to western civilisation?

What he thinks is irrelevant to this question. May I suggest an experiment to settle it even if informally. Go out to a place frequented by a lot of people and ask at least 10 random people to take part in a survey and mention the same names and see the level of recognition. That should be a good indicator...

PS Rand was Russian

joG · Jul 12, 2014

prometeus said:
I was not making an argument, merely relying to your question and commenting on your assertion of Germany agreeing for the US to conduct intelligence operations in their soil. It is you who believes that the agreement, which we do not have to read, is some form of "cart blanche" for the US intelligence organizations. My comment was for the purpose of dispelling that notion.

I am saying that the agreement reported to have been signed, while Steinmeier was running the Chancellery long after the Cold War, was said to give cart blanch for intelligence gathering. This was publicly stated here in Germany and not disputed. If it is disputed, then the situation would change. Until then?

And as to the data mining that is forbidden the German agencies? Well, they helped NSA do so and took the forbidden fruit intelligence from NSA. If there is a violation there, it was the German agencies and the politicians that are responsible for their oversight that should answer.

As far as the spying goes, everyone and their dogs spy on Germany. That includes countries within the EU, Russia or China; you name it. Everyone knows this and has known it all along. Nothing has changed in that respect.
So the question seems to me quite a different one: Why are the US being singled out by German politicians and bureaucrats and why at this time?

OldWorldOrder · Jul 12, 2014

I feel like many of you don't understand what it is intelligence agencies are supposed to do.

Leo · Jul 12, 2014

prometeus said:
What he thinks is irrelevant to this question. May I suggest an experiment to settle it even if informally. Go out to a place frequented by a lot of people and ask at least 10 random people to take part in a survey and mention the same names and see the level of recognition. That should be a good indicator...

PS Rand was Russian

LOL, a lot would depend upon the place frequented by many people - I suspect the quadrangle at Oxford University might result in a near 100% recognition of Kant, Schiller, etc. A bronx ghetto - possibly less so. I am however, not quite sure what either result would tell us.

I know that Alisa Rosenbaum was born in Russia, but she moved to the United States in 1926, became a US citizen, and published Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead as American novelist Ayn Rand.

OldWorldOrder · Jul 12, 2014

Do you think that Europe is superior to the US, Leo?

prometeus · Jul 12, 2014

Leo said:
LOL, a lot would depend upon the place frequented by many people

In the context you raised in your post I thought Times Square would be the place...

I suspect the quadrangle at Oxford University might result in a near 100% recognition of Kant, Schiller, etc. A bronx ghetto - possibly less so.

Indeed.

I am however, not quite sure what either result would tell us.

The current understanding of Western civilization and its origins by the average American...

I know that Alisa Rosenbaum was born in Russia, but she moved to the United States in 1926, became a US citizen, and published Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead as American novelist Ayn Rand.

I had no doubt, but have you accounted for the fact that she was raised in Russia and educated there, factors that leave undeniable traits on a person?

prometeus · Jul 12, 2014

joG said:
I am saying that the agreement reported to have been signed, while Steinmeier was running the Chancellery long after the Cold War, was said to give cart blanch for intelligence gathering.

Yes, that is what I surmised from your post and that is where my disagreement lies for the reasons I posted. Even given our disagreement, I am sure you agree that the agreement was made to serve a purpose and I quite certain that the way I see it, it is closer that how you see it. Unfortunately there is not practical way to settle this so we just have to remain in disagreement.

This was publicly stated here in Germany and not disputed. If it is disputed, then the situation would change. Until then?

Probably because the agreement itself was not made public and because it was also a tool to circumvent German law, so I doubt that much publiciyty or debate is made about it.

And as to the data mining that is forbidden the German agencies? Well, they helped NSA do so and took the forbidden fruit intelligence from NSA. If there is a violation there, it was the German agencies and the politicians that are responsible for their oversight that should answer.

There is not disagreement on any other aspect, but solely that the agreement grants US intelligence operations the right to monitor the German Chancellor as opposed to being an overreach.

As far as the spying goes, everyone and their dogs spy on Germany. That includes countries within the EU, Russia or China; you name it. Everyone knows this and has known it all along. Nothing has changed in that respect.

No dispute there.

So the question seems to me quite a different one: Why are the US being singled out by German politicians and bureaucrats and why at this time?

For one the US got caught. Then there is this claim that the US is allowed to and third the clear message it sends which translates into arrogance in the least.

joG · Jul 12, 2014

prometeus said:
Yes, that is what I surmised from your post and that is where my disagreement lies for the reasons I posted. Even given our disagreement, I am sure you agree that the agreement was made to serve a purpose and I quite certain that the way I see it, it is closer that how you see it. Unfortunately there is not practical way to settle this so we just have to remain in disagreement.

Probably because the agreement itself was not made public and because it was also a tool to circumvent German law, so I doubt that much publiciyty or debate is made about it.

There is not disagreement on any other aspect, but solely that the agreement grants US intelligence operations the right to monitor the German Chancellor as opposed to being an overreach.

No dispute there.
For one the US got caught. Then there is this claim that the US is allowed to and third the clear message it sends which translates into arrogance in the least.

Got caught? That is not quite what happened. An uninformed public thinks the US "got caught".

Morality Games · Jul 12, 2014

Van Basten said:
So, Germany is still putting on a show?

America isn't the only country with "complex" internal politics.

I imagine the fuss is being propagated so that German leadership can justify not cooperating with the United States more on Russia, at the behest of their country's energy industry lobbyists. Otherwise, they are in a pretty tight spot.

Grant · Jul 12, 2014

RabidAlpaca said:
I never said they were funny, I simply corrected you that just because you've never heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist in droves. My wife and her family love German comedians, god knows why.

I spent six months working there and liked the rural people a lot but not so much in the cities. I live in Central America much of the time and many there say they tried to escape the strict German culture, others take it with them. I'd like them better if they'd lighten up a little.

Grant · Jul 12, 2014

Andalublue said:
Enjoy!

Criticizing stereotypes has become the stereotype.

Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

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