George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

buck said:
For the sake of argument, say Z claimed that Martin circled his vehicle (not certain exactly what circled means, but...). What have you seen to refute that?

We don't have anything at the moment to show that M did not walk a circle around Z vehicle that I know of. We don't have anything to show that Z did not sprout wings and a tail at some point in time either.
In both cases though, it seems likely that the events would be of interest to Z and presumably the PD. Because Z failed to mention M growing wings and a tail, it seems unlikely, but not impossible, that M did grow them.
But that's based entirely on the assumption that Z was likely to announce the sudden growth of wings and a tail on M's part.

Do we assume that Z would have announced that M was walking a circle around Z's vehicle?
Do we assume that we could have heard if Z rolled up his window?
idk

buck said:
That is something I would like more information/details on too.

We don't have Z's version of it afaict.
But in the bond hearing the "street sign" thing came up. So, some version of it exists in the official body of evidence--it's not a totally fabricated element of Z's story.

Based on the initial, partial reports, it sounds like it smells funny.

buck · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
We don't have anything at the moment to show that M did not walk a circle around Z vehicle that I know of. We don't have anything to show that Z did not sprout wings and a tail at some point in time either.
In both cases though, it seems likely that the events would be of interest to Z and presumably the PD. Because Z failed to mention M growing wings and a tail, it seems unlikely, but not impossible, that M did grow them.
But that's based entirely on the assumption that Z was likely to announce the sudden growth of wings and a tail on M's part.

Do we assume that Z would have announced that M was walking a circle around Z's vehicle?
Do we assume that we could have heard if Z rolled up his window?
idk

I think the difference might be that in one example it is highly possible (and something many of us have probably seen). In the 911 call, Zimm indicated that Martin was checking him out, you're just concerned that he didn't use the exact word "circle"? Shrug, I guess we all place different importance on different things. Anyway, at least you acknowledge that you have nothing to refute, which you seemed to imply in the original post.

Kreton · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
His claim of self-defense consists of multiple other claims.
Those smaller claims are subject to being refuted.
The larger claim, of self-defense, can only be refuted by refuting the claims that make up the larger claim of self defense.
The larger claim cannot be refuted in and of itself except by refuting its component claims.

Are there any of the smaller claims you're asking about?

Pick anything you like. Can you find evidence that shows Zimmerman is lying about any aspect of that night?

Kreton · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
I don't think we know that much about what Z's claims are. Knowledge of what Z's claims are is a necessary starting condition before we can determine the properties of those claims.

Did Z claim that he got out of his truck and walked to where there was not an intersection to find a street sign for a street that was different from the one where he had parked so that he could tell the cops where to meet him? And that is why he wasn't in his vehicle when he and Martin met?
I don't know.

Did Z claim that Martin circled his vehicle and that Z rolled up the window while he was on the phone to the PD?
idk

Did Z claim that his fear for his life came from the infliction of head injuries?
idk

My point is that since we I don't have a good picture of what exactly Z's claims are, it's hard to refute them.
Some of us seem to have a preternatural grip on exactly what Z's story is and isn't.

These are just questions. None of this is actual evidence in the case. So again I ask. have you seen any evidence that discredits Zimmermans account of that night?

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

muciti said:
These are just questions. None of this is actual evidence in the case. So again I ask. have you seen any evidence that discredits Zimmermans account of that night?

Again I will say:
My point is that since we I don't have a good picture of what exactly Z's claims are, it's hard to refute them.

Kreton · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
Again I will say:
My point is that since we I don't have a good picture of what exactly Z's claims are, it's hard to refute them.

So you dont think it can be proven?

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

muciti said:
So you dont think it can be proven?

I don't think what can be proven?

Kreton · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
I don't think what can be proven?

That Zimmerman did not act in self defense.

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

muciti said:
That Zimmerman did not act in self defense.

I think that w/o knowing what Z's story is, that it's very hard to reach conclusions about it.

I am not sure how else to say that.

Kreton · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
I think that w/o knowing what Z's story is, that it's very hard to reach conclusions about it.

I am not sure how else to say that.

I thought not. Thank you very much.

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

muciti said:
I thought not. Thank you very much.

You're very welcome for w/e you think you received.
I am glad you realized that I was saying that w/o knowing what Z's actual story is, the story cannot be corroborated or refuted.
I was running out of ways to say it.

Grim17 · May 16, 2012

Here's the conclusion to the post I started yesterday:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/blogs...an-martin-and-floridas-self-defense-laws.html

Boo Radley · May 16, 2012

Grim17 said:
Here's the conclusion to the post I started yesterday:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/blogs...an-martin-and-floridas-self-defense-laws.html

I give you credit. That was reasonably well written, and I follow your reasoning. I don't know if you're accurate (but that speaks to my knowledge), but I do appreciate your effort here. :thumbs:

ric27 · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
You're very welcome for w/e you think you received.
I am glad you realized that I was saying that w/o knowing what Z's actual story is, the story cannot be corroborated or refuted.
I was running out of ways to say it.

A story cannot be corroborated or refuted then one must do what?

Kreton · May 16, 2012

ric27 said:
A story cannot be corroborated or refuted then one must do what?

ooooh. i know i know. pick me! ooooh right here.

vendur · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
You're very welcome for w/e you think you received.
I am glad you realized that I was saying that w/o knowing what Z's actual story is, the story cannot be corroborated or refuted.
I was running out of ways to say it.

Well, you could of just so "no" from the get go instead of the locutionary masturbation.

Phoenix · May 16, 2012

ric27 said:
A story cannot be corroborated or refuted then one must do what?

muciti said:
ooooh. i know i know. pick me! ooooh right here.

Simon's point isn't that his claims can't be corroborated (or refuted) His point is we don't know what Zimmerman's version of the events is since HE has not made any statement about them. He claimed self defense. That all we know FROM ZIMMERMAN HIMSELF.

Kreton · May 16, 2012

Phoenix said:
Simon's point isn't that his claims can't be corroborated (or refuted) His point is we don't know what Zimmerman's version of the events is since HE has not made any statement about them. He claimed self defense. That all we know FROM ZIMMERMAN HIMSELF.

You could know more if you wanted to. The information is out there.

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

ric27 said:
A story cannot be corroborated or refuted then one must do what?

Find out what the story is.

I am not sure what you're fishing for.
But the reason why the story cannot be refuted nor supported is because we don't know what the story actually is.
So, the seemingly obvious thing, imho, is to find out what the story is.

I assume you had some other suggestion.

:shrug:

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

vendur said:
Well, you could of just so "no" from the get go instead of the locutionary masturbation.

"No" to what?

Kreton · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
Find out what the story is.

I am not sure what you're fishing for.
But the reason why the story cannot be refuted nor supported is because we don't know what the story actually is.
So, the seemingly obvious thing, imho, is to find out what the story is.

I assume you had some other suggestion.

:shrug:

Plenty of information has been leaked. You can choose to read up on it or dont.

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

muciti said:
You could know more if you wanted to. The information is out there.

As soon as you can link to Z's story as Z told it, please do.

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

muciti said:
Plenty of information has been leaked. You can choose to read up on it or dont.

As someone who has had experience playing the game telephone, and as someone who has read differing accounts of what Z's story supposedly was, I am thinking that Z's version of events will be much closer to Z's version of events than other people's retelling of other's retelling of the events.

Your mileage may vary.
w/e

Kreton · May 16, 2012

Simon W. Moon said:
As someone who has had experience playing the game telephone, and as someone who has read differing accounts of what Z's story supposedly was, I am thinking that Z's version of events will be much closer to Z's version of events than other people's retelling of other's retelling of the events.

Your mileage may vary.
w/e

Tell yourself what you need to. We have alot of information about what Zimmerman has said. His lawyers, his families, police leaks and the bail hearing give alot of information. You can choose to reserve your opinion until after the trial if you wish. Doesn't bother me any. But if you are interested today in what is known the information is out there.

Simon W. Moon · May 16, 2012

muciti said:
Tell yourself what you need to. We have alot of information about what Zimmerman has said. His lawyers, his families, police leaks and the bail hearing give alot of information. You can choose to reserve your opinion until after the trial if you wish. Doesn't bother me any. But if you are interested today in what is known the information is out there.

I have a read a reasonable chunk of it and found to be wanting.
There're too many details that vary from one re-telling to the next.

imho, it seems reasonable to compare facts against what Z had to say.

I don't see the point in comparing the facts against what someone says that they heard someone else say that Zimmerman said.

I am not skilled enough to distinguish between a diversion from the known facts and a mere mis-telling the tale. I still need something to compare against, e.g. the actual tale from the horse's mouth.
Perhaps you're just much better at telling the difference than I am and perhaps you know some other way to test if a certain detail is in accord with an account you haven't seen.

You seem satisfied with hearsay.
I am not.

:shrug:

George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting

Simon W. Moon

buck

Kreton

Doesn't know

Kreton

Doesn't know

Simon W. Moon

Kreton

Doesn't know

Simon W. Moon

Kreton

Doesn't know

Simon W. Moon

Kreton

Doesn't know

Simon W. Moon

Grim17

Battle Ready

Boo Radley

ric27

Kreton

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vendur

Phoenix

Kreton

Doesn't know

Simon W. Moon

Simon W. Moon

Kreton

Doesn't know

Simon W. Moon

Simon W. Moon

Kreton

Doesn't know

Simon W. Moon

George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting

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Doesn't know

Doesn't know

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Battle Ready

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