Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

jaeger19 · Apr 22, 2015

JasperL said:
Those are apples and oranges. The first mistake is conflating domesticated animals raised for food with wild elephants hunted for sport.

If you your children were killed rounding up Grizzly bears, that's roughly equivalent. Or perhaps if the kids were in the field shooting the cows with arrows, and a wounded cow turned and charged them. Bull fighting is also a decent analogy - that's an actual fight to the death, and no, I won't shed many tears for the losing bull fighters, rare as them dying in the ring may be.

FWIW, as I've said, I don't have a problem with trophy hunting. I don't understand the appeal, but I do recognize that something like a wild bull elephant has a HUGE value, and those folks struggling to survive can either sell them (effectively) to wealthy trophy hunters who do get a thrill out of it, and maintain a viable population to serve that market, or they'll allow them to be poached, or kill the animals themselves for the tusks and let the carcass rot, etc. So in a lot of ways, it's a matter of how they'll be killed not whether, and by far the best method is controlled, licensed hunters paying big bucks for the privilege. It's sort of odd that we can save a population of rare animals by hunting/killing SOME of them, but that's how it works..... But when a hunter taking on these creatures, accepting the risks, gets killed, sorry but I don't mourn the loss like I would some kid trampled by a wild elephant on her way back from school.

Actually that's the point. Domesticated animals will die as well. When they are being herded up.. which entails being chased.. sometimes roped.. being dragged by the neck, then having a brand burned into.. before being loaded on a truck.. and shipped to a slaughterhouse where they are bonked on the head until dead.

That's the reality of domesticated animals.

That's the irony of the post. "Oh gee.., you shot hunted that animal in a fair chase hunt.. he had the opportunity to escape and you tried to make a humane one shot kill. Shame on you for trying to kill that animal...you should die.. I root for the elephant"

So where is the angst over a beef cow? AS I point out.. if that's the morality at play here.. should the poster not wish that when my kids participate in the round up.. that my kids should be killed as well, since they are essentially giving the animal less of a chance, and are probably making it much more scared and suffer more? If that's the philosophy.. then they should be rooting for the cattle to kill my children.

That's essentially the problem with that logic.

jaeger19 · Apr 22, 2015

Montecresto said:
Legal hunting may help perpetuate a species. But with a species burdened by poachers to the extent that it is endangered, no. The poaching must be arrested, effectively, and legal hunting has to be on hold at least. And that's for most game animals, but elephants are special, and should be managed differently, as SD has been trying to explain.

Elephants are not special in the science behind saving them from extinction and the importance of the animal having a legitimate value through controlled hunting.. rather than indiscriminate poaching. That's what the science shows...

Unfortunately... SD and others think that elephants are "special".. and are ignoring the facts, the realities, and the science.. .and that's why other African species have made comebacks.. while the African elephant and other "special" animals languish. Conservation methods and science including the judicial use of hunting have been proven for well over a hundred years... unfortunately.. facts and science are not in the anti hunter playbook.

flogger · Apr 22, 2015

jaeger19 said:
Me... why should I feel foolish.. its not like I just posted multiple times that she "KILLED" the rhino.. and then provided a link that proved I was wrong...

That would be YOU.. not me.

By the way.. since the animal was not killed.. there is no real rhino trophy head on her wall.

You keep talking about her "real motivation" with total disregards for the facts. The success rate for hunting is abysmal... so if the only motivation is a trophy rack.. then please explain why someone would pay thousands of dollars.. go year after year.. even when unsuccessful? If its "all about killing"..

Her first big kill was a white Rhino and I quoted her admitting to this. Her alleged 'lack' of success is reflected in her sick Facebook photos of a multitude of species she so proudly killed for fun.

jaeger19 · Apr 22, 2015

flogger said:
Her first big kill was a white Rhino and I quoted her admitting to this. Her alleged 'lack' of success is reflected in her sick Facebook photos of a multitude of species she so proudly killed for fun.

The Rhino was not killed... it was tranquilized and I knew it.. I told you that it was a picture of a tranquilized animal, that was tranquilized in a conservation effort.

YOU made great hay that it was killed.

You ended up with egg on your face... that's it.

And yes... she has a lot of lack of success. Hunting is not easy at all. Statistically success rates on killing an animal is very, very low...

This is all objective information that refutes your position on hunting being "just about killing"...

In fact.. the killing of an animal is so rare.. that's why its seen as such a big deal in the hunting community. Especially something like a leopard. NOW THAT is an accomplishment. I looked at booking a leopard hunt and it was a minimum of 20 days with an average success rate of about 20%. And that's high. That's 20 days of patiently waiting in a blind, hour after hour while the bugs eat you alive.. where one cough.. one sneeze.. simply too much sweat.. can blow a hunt. All to try and take one of the most elusive game animals on the continent. One that will eat you, or at least give you a serious headache if you screw up. Heck.. even if you don;t screw up. Even a hard hit leopard can settle your hash in a flurry of teeth and claws.

JasperL · Apr 22, 2015

jaeger19 said:
So where is the angst over a beef cow? AS I point out.. if that's the morality at play here.. should the poster not wish that when my kids participate in the round up.. that my kids should be killed as well, since they are essentially giving the animal less of a chance, and are probably making it much more scared and suffer more? If that's the philosophy.. then they should be rooting for the cattle to kill my children.

That's essentially the problem with that logic.

There are lots of themes running through this thread, but one of them is some of us, me included, aren't mourning a person who made a living hunting wild dangerous animals for sport and was ultimately killed by an animal he was hunting. We're simply rationally judging the result (death) by the act that produced the result - killing dangerous wild animals for sport. He wasn't protecting villagers from elephants gone wild rampaging through villages, he wasn't a wildlife photographer, or a biologist - he entered into their wild habitat with the goal of killing among the biggest and baddest of them, for fun.

Others disagree, and that's fine. But it's a different set of actions - killing dangerous wild animals in Africa - than ranching.

I don't believe rational humans are required to treat all killings of animals equivalently - "Hey, you eat hamburgers - you're a hypocrite if you object to killing elephants!" No. Not even all poachers are equivalent. I know a few up in the mountains, and they kill bears and deer and whatever else they find whenever they happen to need meat. It's fine with me - they are ethical - don't kill does with fawns or mama bears with cubs, etc.

Similarly, when a person is killed by an animal, the circumstances also matter.

TurtleDude · Apr 22, 2015

Montecresto said:
So, we're saying that licensing shouldn't be issued for elephants, they being unique, and not game. And folk will continue to work toward that end. You may call bs as you wish.

yeah I am sure places like Botswana or the RSA really care what anti hunting americans think

TurtleDude · Apr 22, 2015

flogger said:
Her first big kill was a white Rhino and I quoted her admitting to this. Her alleged 'lack' of success is reflected in her sick Facebook photos of a multitude of species she so proudly killed for fun.

I find your hatred far more disturbing than anything she has done

flogger · Apr 23, 2015

jaeger19 said:
The Rhino was not killed... it was tranquilized and I knew it.. I told you that it was a picture of a tranquilized animal, that was tranquilized in a conservation effort.YOU made great hay that it was killed.

You ended up with egg on your face... that's it.

No I made great hay quoting that she said she had killed it and that it was indeed her first kill. The one in the photo I posted was the one she shot dead (and doubtless now hangs on her wall) the one in the article was the one she darted. Ergo they were different animals. Hell maybe she just popped out to change her clothes and hair in the two photos just to confuse you

Learn to read

And yes... she has a lot of lack of success. Hunting is not easy at all. Statistically success rates on killing an animal is very, very low...

Thats good then. Its her having the mindset that sees such creatures first and foremost as targets and objects to be killed in order to tick them off of some perverse list that I find pretty sick

This is all objective information that refutes your position on hunting being "just about killing"...

Of course thats what its about

In fact.. the killing of an animal is so rare.. that's why its seen as such a big deal in the hunting community. Especially something like a leopard. NOW THAT is an accomplishment. I looked at booking a leopard hunt and it was a minimum of 20 days with an average success rate of about 20%. And that's high. That's 20 days of patiently waiting in a blind, hour after hour while the bugs eat you alive.. where one cough.. one sneeze.. simply too much sweat.. can blow a hunt. All to try and take one of the most elusive game animals on the continent. One that will eat you, or at least give you a serious headache if you screw up. Heck.. even if you don;t screw up. Even a hard hit leopard can settle your hash in a flurry of teeth and claws.

You are of course deliberately missing the point. Why would anyone want to kill such an endangered animal in the first place ?

flogger · Apr 23, 2015

TurtleDude said:
I find your hatred far more disturbing than anything she has done

I dont doubt a sizeable majority in the real world would view her activities with equal disdain

flogger · Apr 23, 2015

It turns out that I made the mistake in posting my first Rhino picture. My bad

This is in fact the one she shot dead and was her first kill .... at the age of 13 !!!

If anything this makes it even worse. Why would any child want to do this ?

jaeger19 · Apr 23, 2015

JasperL said:
There are lots of themes running through this thread, but one of them is some of us, me included, aren't mourning a person who made a living hunting wild dangerous animals for sport and was ultimately killed by an animal he was hunting. We're simply rationally judging the result (death) by the act that produced the result - killing dangerous wild animals for sport. He wasn't protecting villagers from elephants gone wild rampaging through villages, he wasn't a wildlife photographer, or a biologist - he entered into their wild habitat with the goal of killing among the biggest and baddest of them, for fun.

Others disagree, and that's fine. But it's a different set of actions - killing dangerous wild animals in Africa - than ranching.

I don't believe rational humans are required to treat all killings of animals equivalently - "Hey, you eat hamburgers - you're a hypocrite if you object to killing elephants!" No. Not even all poachers are equivalent. I know a few up in the mountains, and they kill bears and deer and whatever else they find whenever they happen to need meat. It's fine with me - they are ethical - don't kill does with fawns or mama bears with cubs, etc.

Similarly, when a person is killed by an animal, the circumstances also matter.

See.. that's the problem.. you say the circumstances matter.

You don't mourn a person that made a living hunting wild dangerous animals and was killed.

Why?

My children are chasing, herding and roping a dangerous animal as well, and they do it as a job as well. So why would you treat that differently?

Is it because you eat cattle.. and therefore its acceptable.. and you don;t eat elephant so that's not?

Why the difference.

Rational people, using the rationale that you propose.. that someone making a living dealing with dangerous animals.. basically get what he deserves....

Should use the same rationale with cattle as well as elephants.

TurtleDude · Apr 23, 2015

flogger said:
I dont doubt a sizeable majority in the real world would view her activities with equal disdain

I couldn't care less what "most of the world thinks"

much of the world doesn't care because they are too busy trying to avoid starvation, dictatorships, communist scourges, Jihadist bandits and other problems.

TurtleDude · Apr 23, 2015

flogger said:
It turns out that I made the mistake in posting my first Rhino picture. My bad

This is in fact the one she shot dead and was her first kill .... at the age of 13 !!!

View attachment 67183501

If anything this makes it even worse. Why would any child want to do this ?

My little brother was 11 when he got an impala in Africa. Unlike Rhinos they are good to eat

good shot girl. we need more people like her and less anti hunting extremists

flogger · Apr 23, 2015

TurtleDude said:
I couldn't care less what "most of the world thinks"

You've made that plain already :roll:

flogger · Apr 23, 2015

TurtleDude said:
My little brother was 11 when he got an impala in Africa. Unlike Rhinos they are good to eat

good shot girl. we need more people like her and less anti hunting extremists

Nobody could ever condone this. This is just flaming :caution:

jet57 · Apr 23, 2015

Dovkan said:
Game Hunter Ian Gibson Trampled To Death By Elephant
I hope the elephant is doing well.

Fair play poetic justice.

Goshin · Apr 23, 2015

flogger said:
It turns out that I made the mistake in posting my first Rhino picture. My bad

This is in fact the one she shot dead and was her first kill .... at the age of 13 !!!

View attachment 67183501

If anything this makes it even worse. Why would any child want to do this ?

Because it is an impressive feat of hunting prowess? Because it is an accomplishment few have achieved?

Might as well ask why people climb Mt Everest, at risk of their lives.

Goshin · Apr 23, 2015

flogger said:
Nobody could ever condone this. This is just flaming :caution:

Nonsense. It is a legitimately expressed viewpoint.

Locally many boys and girls bag their first deer around that age. Most of those kids would be beyond ecstatic to get a chance to hunt Impala in Africa. You only think something is wrong with it because you think something is morally wrong with hunting in the first place.

news flash: Many millions of people don't see things the way you do.

flogger · Apr 23, 2015

Goshin said:
Because it is an impressive feat of hunting prowess? Because it is an accomplishment few have achieved?

Might as well ask why people climb Mt Everest, at risk of their lives.

Yes but those that climbed Everest risked their own lives they didn't target endangered species for sick fun.

TurtleDude · Apr 23, 2015

flogger said:
You've made that plain already :roll:

and I don't recall seeing you appointed official spokesperson of "those who are jealous of America" or rich hunters either

flogger · Apr 23, 2015

Goshin said:
news flash: Many millions of people don't see things the way you do.

I am sure there are considerably greater millions that do

TurtleDude · Apr 23, 2015

flogger said:
Nobody could ever condone this. This is just flaming :caution:

hunters are far less likely to engage in illegal behavior

far less likely to be far left extremists

far more likely to be net tax payers

far more likely to have productive jobs

flogger · Apr 23, 2015

TurtleDude said:
and I don't recall seeing you appointed official spokesperson of "those who are jealous of America" or rich hunters either

What makes you think I care a jot about wealth and nationality on this issue ?

TurtleDude · Apr 23, 2015

flogger said:
Yes but those that climbed Everest risked their own lives they didn't target endangered species for sick fun.

if the people WHO MATTERED considered the animal taken by a legitimate hunter "endangered" they would not have sold her or her father a license. Why do you think you know more about the state of game in another nation than those whose jobs is dependent on a sustained population of animals that can be hunted?

Money talks, ignorant Bambist comments ought to walk

flogger · Apr 23, 2015

TurtleDude said:
if the people WHO MATTERED considered the animal taken by a legitimate hunter "endangered" they would not have sold her or her father a license. Why do you think you know more about the state of game in another nation than those whose jobs is dependent on a sustained population of animals that can be hunted?

Money talks, ignorant Bambist comments ought to walk

If money talks they can give to conservationist charities. If they are really concerned with conservation then become game keepers or veterinarians working in situ. Its the killing they really want

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