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FYI: Hydatidiform Moles

Felicity

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International Society for the Study of Trophoblastic Diseases
http://www.isstd.org/intro/#1

1. WHAT IS A HYDATIDIFORM MOLE?
A hydatidiform mole is an abnormality of fertilization. There are two types of hydatidiform mole, complete and partial. With complete mole the chromosomal genetic material from the ovum (egg) is lost, by a process that is yet not understood. Fertilization then occurs with one or two sperm and an androgenic (from the male only) conceptus (fertilized egg) is formed. With this conceptus the embryo (fetus, baby) does not develop at all but the placenta does grow but it is abnormal and forms lots of cysts and has no blood vessels. These cysts look like a cluster of grapes and that is why it is called a hydatidiform mole (grape like). A hydatidiform mole miscarries by about 16 to 18 weeks gestational age. Since the diagnosis can be made by ultrasound before that time, it is better for you to have an evacuation of the uterus (D & C) so that there is no undue bleeding and no infection. Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) will assist in making the diagnosis.
The other type of hydatidiform mole is called a partial mole and this is also a genetically abnormal pregnancy. In this case there are three sets of chromosomes instead of the usual two and this is called triploidy. With such a pregnancy the chromosomal (genetic) material from the ovum (egg) is retained and the egg is fertilized by one or two sperm. Since with partial mole there are maternal chromosomes there is a fetus but because of the three sets of chromosomes this fetus is always grossly abnormal and will not survive
 

Kelzie

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Is there a debate here or did you just feel like sharing?
 

Felicity

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Kelzie said:
Is there a debate here or did you just feel like sharing?
Just sharing!:2razz:
 

steen

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Felicity said:
International Society for the Study of Trophoblastic Diseases
http://www.isstd.org/intro/#1

1. WHAT IS A HYDATIDIFORM MOLE?
A hydatidiform mole is an abnormality of fertilization. There are two types of hydatidiform mole, complete and partial. With complete mole the chromosomal genetic material from the ovum (egg) is lost, by a process that is yet not understood. Fertilization then occurs with one or two sperm and an androgenic (from the male only) conceptus (fertilized egg) is formed. With this conceptus the embryo (fetus, baby) does not develop at all but the placenta does grow but it is abnormal and forms lots of cysts and has no blood vessels.
I am not sure why this site is talking about a fetus or a baby, as there is never a developing embryo to begin with.

The other words in parenthesis are substitute words. "Egg" is popular terminology for ovum, certainly. But a fetus is not the esame as an embryo.

No matter. I will just contact them and make them aware of the ambiguity and apparent error on their site.
These cysts look like a cluster of grapes and that is why it is called a hydatidiform mole (grape like). A hydatidiform mole miscarries by about 16 to 18 weeks gestational age. Since the diagnosis can be made by ultrasound before that time, it is better for you to have an evacuation of the uterus (D & C) so that there is no undue bleeding and no infection. Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) will assist in making the diagnosis.
The other type of hydatidiform mole is called a partial mole and this is also a genetically abnormal pregnancy. In this case there are three sets of chromosomes instead of the usual two and this is called triploidy. With such a pregnancy the chromosomal (genetic) material from the ovum (egg) is retained and the egg is fertilized by one or two sperm. Since with partial mole there are maternal chromosomes there is a fetus
That is a screwy claim. The fetus is what originates upon the maturity of the embryo per the laying down the foundation of organ structures.

As such, the partial hydatidiform mole never turns into a fetus to begin with. Their definition of "fetus" doesn't match up with the accepted, scientific/biological/medical definition of fetus.
but because of the three sets of chromosomes this fetus is always grossly abnormal and will not survive
And again, as the structures never even undergo a proper folding, it really isn't ever a blastocyst, let alone an embryo or a fetus.
 

Felicity

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Thought I'd post your contributions from the other thread, steen....;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity
International Society for the Study of Trophoblastic Diseases
http://www.isstd.org/intro/#1

1. WHAT IS A HYDATIDIFORM MOLE?
A hydatidiform mole is an abnormality of fertilization. There are two types of hydatidiform mole, .....

Isn't that what I've been saying? Guess you shouldn't have been so "fascinated" Doc.


steen said:
Really? You are STILL claiming these to be a human being
Felicity said:
with partial mole there are maternal chromosomes there is a fetus but because of the three sets of chromosomes this fetus is always grossly abnormal and will not survive

What does that say, steen...???

steen said:
That you are wrong. There is no fetus. There is originally a zygote, but it doesn't even fold over to form a blastocyst, yet alone an embryo. And thus, there certainly also is never a fetus.

The text you quote is in error.
Felicity said:
You are disagreeing with the International Society for the Study of Trophoblastic Diseases (ISSTD)?

You...the 1st year Child Psych internist know more about trophoblastic disease than the International Society for the Study of Trophoblastic Diseases????? Your hubris is ASTONISHING!!!!
steen said:
There is originally a zygote,

Dude...life begins AT conception....THAT IS conception.....
 

Felicity

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steen said:
No matter. I will just contact them and make them aware of the ambiguity and apparent error on their site..

I'm sure they will be eternally grateful...:rolleyes:
 

Felicity

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OOOOh...You better contact these guys too...wouldn't want them to spread "false" (according to the almighty steen) info either....:roll:


http://www.baby-parenting.com/pregnancy/molar_pregnancy.html

“In a "complete mole," no normal fetal tissue forms. In a "partial mole," incomplete fetal tissues develop alongside molar tissue”
 

steen

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Felicity said:
Dude...life begins AT conception....THAT IS conception.....
Actually, the elements going into the formation of the zygote are alive themselves. So your claim is still false.
 

Felicity

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Oh my Gosh!!!:eek: Not BMJ too!

http://www.studentbmj.com/issues/03/02/education/15.php
Partial moles result from dispermic fertilisation of an ovum with retention of maternal chromosomes, resulting in triploidy, 69XXY, 69XXX, or 69XYY. An embryo or fetus is usually present but tends to die early in the pregnancy. In both complete and partial moles chromosomal composition can vary.
 

steen

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Felicity said:
OOOOh...You better contact these guys too...wouldn't want them to spread "false" (according to the almighty steen) info either...
Actually, it is not according to me, but rather according to scientific information.

“In a "complete mole," no normal fetal tissue forms. In a "partial mole," incomplete fetal tissues develop alongside molar tissue”
And again, fetal tissue is what developes at the end of the embryonic stage per the laying down of all major organ systems. Please show where the major organ systems are in place in hydatidiform moles. Otehrwise, of course, there is no fetus.

That's what you get from trying to claim scientific information from non-scientific sources.
 

steen

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Felicity said:
And you better get those people at the March of Dimes educated too!

"With a partial mole, there may be some normal placenta and the embryo, which is abnormal, begins to develop."
Why? They are not making false claims about embryos. How silly of you.
 

Felicity

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Lame, steen,....you're just WRONG here.....I know it's hard to get your brain around it....but with all your training, I'm sure you'll get through the stages of grief with flying colors and you'll be back to your old self soon enough...:lol:
 

steen

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Felicity said:
You can’t have Merck spreading info that contradicts you steen...call them as well...

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec22/ch252/ch252h.html

Rarely, a hydatidiform mole develops when the fetus is normal.”
Ah, but you are dishonest (Yes, we know that you lie all the time, and here you selectively quote-mined like the good dishonest fundie you are. What the Merck Manual REALLY said was this:

Most often, a hydatidiform mole is an abnormal fertilized egg. The abnormal egg develops into a hydatidiform mole rather than a fetus (a condition called molar pregnancy). However, a hydatidiform mole can develop from cells that remain in the uterus after a miscarriage or a full-term pregnancy. Rarely, a hydatidiform mole develops when the fetus is normal.

The Merck Manual doesn't claim that the partial mole develops into a fetus. It points out that cells with NORMAL genetic material, such as that after a miscarriage, or per remaining placental tissue after birth can develop into a fetus.

So this doesn't show the hydatidiform mole from the conceptus to be a fetus either.

(A word of caution. The Merck Manual may be a reference source, but it is not a scientific source. It doesn't have the peer-review that scientific sources must have.)

All that aside, the Merck Manual doesn't show what you claimed, and only through incredibly dishonest selective quoting could you deceptively twist the meaning. Shame on you for being so dishonest.
 

steen

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Felicity said:
Oh my Gosh!!!:eek: Not BMJ too!
Actually, that is a student segment of their website, not the peer-reviewed, scientific journal itself.
 

Felicity

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steen said:
(A word of caution. The Merck Manual may be a reference source, but it is not a scientific source. It doesn't have the peer-review that scientific sources must have.).

I knew you'd ask...

http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/abstract/140/2/467

Ultrasonography of partial hydatidiform mole
P Naumoff, AE Szulman, B Weinstein, J Mazer and U Surti
Partial hydatidiform mole differs from complete mole by its focal distribution, its slower transformation, the presence of an embryo or fetus, and the triploid karyotype
 

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Felicity said:
Lame, steen,....you're just WRONG here.....
Nope. A fetus is a very specific entity with all the major organ system foundations laid down. Such structures are not uniformly laid down in either a partial, nor a complete hydatidiform mole.
 

Felicity

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http://www.rsna.org/REG/publications/rg/afip/privateM/1996/0016/0001/0131/9.htm#topAnchor

Partial Hydatidiform Mole

The pathologic characteristics of partial hydatidiform mole differ from those of complete hydatidiform mole in that the former has normal villi interspersed with hydropic villi (Figure 16). In comparison with complete hydatidiform mole, partial hydatidiform moles have much less trophoblastic proliferation, which typically appears as focal projections of syncytiotrophoblast (Figure 17). The abnormal gametogenesis that precedes the partial hydatidiform mole results in a triploid karyotype with both maternal and paternal DNA (usually due to fertilization of a single ovum with two sperm). The fetus is also triploid and does not survive (1,11).
 

Felicity

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Shall I continue?:roll:
 

Felicity

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Awww...heck...just two more.....for good measure...;)

http://www.mcnjournal.com/pt/re/mcn/abstract.00005721-199603000-00012.htm;jsessionid=DMD1k1muPPTvs2Am4mlAJJ3PsykRaYh1kIUUI0Npk50Jd1vSaoW2!-365670234!-949856145!9001!-1
MCN: The American Journal of Maternal Child Nursing - Fulltext ...
"A complete hydatidiform mole lacks an embryo or fetus (3). ... A partial hydatidiform mole includes genetically abnormal fetal and placental tissues. ..."







http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/61001960/ABSTRACT

Diploid hydatidiform moles with fetal red blood cells in molar villi. 1 - pathology, incidence and prognosis

ABSTRACT
"It is believed that fetal development does not occur in complete mole (CM); when present, it is usually interpreted as proof of partial mole (PM), "
 

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You still haven't shown the partial mole to contain any tissue with foundation for all organ structures laid down. Until you do so, you have no evidence.

(Because you obviosuly DO know what a fetus is, and as such is lying outright.)
 

Felicity

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Denial is one way to handle it....I suppose....:lol:

Isn't that the first stage of the grieving process?
 

steen

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Felicity said:
Denial is one way to handle it....I suppose
I am sure you think that, as that is what you do when you cowardly avoid dealing with the facts of what a fetus actually is, and ignore that the mole doesn't have the foundation for organs laid down and thus can not be a fetus.

That you then lie and distract from your cowardly avoidance through dishonesty, that is just ever so much more evidence of how much prolifers actually lie.
 

Felicity

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steen said:
I am sure you think that, as that is what you do when you cowardly avoid dealing with the facts of what a fetus actually is, and ignore that the mole doesn't have the foundation for organs laid down and thus can not be a fetus.

That you then lie and distract from your cowardly avoidance through dishonesty, that is just ever so much more evidence of how much prolifers actually lie.
Where's the lie steen...most of this thread is other's words.
 
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