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free will in heaven vs on earth

F

FallingPianos

I've heard a lot of christians argue that the reason there is suffering in this life, is that the only alternative would be to not have free will, which would defeat the purpose of living.

what about heaven? there is no suffering in heaven, so there cannot possibly be free will. whats the point of going to heaven?

why is there a different attitude toward free will in heaven vs on earth?
 

kal-el

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star2589 said:
I've heard a lot of christians argue that the reason there is suffering in this life, is that the only alternative would be to not have free will, which would defeat the purpose of living.
If Christians believe that God is omniscient, then how can we have free will? An omniscient God knows everything that will be and has been.


what about heaven? there is no suffering in heaven, so there cannot possibly be free will. whats the point of going to heaven?
Well, when I was a Christian I probably would have answered that in heaven there is free will, it's just that we choose not to sin?


why is there a different attitude toward free will in heaven vs on earth?
Who knows? But to Christians, everyone chooses to be in heaven.
 

Apostle13

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star2589 said:
I've heard a lot of christians argue that the reason there is suffering in this life, is that the only alternative would be to not have free will, which would defeat the purpose of living.

what about heaven? there is no suffering in heaven, so there cannot possibly be free will. whats the point of going to heaven?

why is there a different attitude toward free will in heaven vs on earth?
kal-el said:
Well, when I was a Christian I probably would have answered that in heaven there is free will, it's just that we choose not to sin?
Good answer... Allow me to elaborate a little..?
There is free will in heaven. Evident by fallen angels. When one comes to know, experience, suffer the consequences of sin here on earth... Evil doing in heaven should and will become a non-option... As we will have learned from our mistakes.
 
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tecoyah

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Apostle13 said:
Good answer... Allow me to elaborate a little..?
There is free will in heaven. Evident by fallen angels. When one comes to know, experience, suffer the consequences of sin here on earth... Evil doing in heaven should and will become a non-option... As we will have learned from our mistakes.
Sounds like a lovely Vacation Spot....I would book a room but, they dont let us Blackeys in.
 

Apostle13

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tecoyah said:
Sounds like a lovely Vacation Spot....I would book a room but, they dont let us Blackeys in.
I'm tunnelin' my way... Just grab a shovel.
 

kal-el

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tecoyah said:
Sounds like a lovely Vacation Spot....I would book a room but, they dont let us Blackeys in.
What are you talking about? God could be black for all we know. It never says in the Bible, it's just assumed he's white. But he did create man in his own image, so you can roll the dice.
 

nkgupta80

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Apostle13 said:
Good answer... Allow me to elaborate a little..?
There is free will in heaven. Evident by fallen angels. When one comes to know, experience, suffer the consequences of sin here on earth... Evil doing in heaven should and will become a non-option... As we will have learned from our mistakes.
so couldnt god have designed humans to have been born with the knowledge we get when we learn from our mistakes? Then there wouldn't be any suffering.
 

Apostle13

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nkgupta80 said:
so couldnt god have designed humans to have been born with the knowledge we get when we learn from our mistakes? Then there wouldn't be any suffering.
Well, I am not one of those who pretends to have all the answers... And that is a good question.
The bible does say, "His ways are higher than our ways"... I suspect the answer lies somewhere in the grand scheme of things. Hence, a bigger picture, incomprehensible to man. Purposely hidden.. :mrgreen:
 

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nkgupta80 said:
so couldnt god have designed humans to have been born with the knowledge we get when we learn from our mistakes? Then there wouldn't be any suffering.
Wouldn't make any difference...people choose to repeat the same mistakes all the time. They might have learned a lesson, but they choose to ignore it.

Let me offer this to the discussion of "why there is suffering."

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

This verse is from a section where Peter is talking about the Last Day. There was intense persecution of Christians in those days, and much of the letters in the New Testament focus on "enduring" "standing fast until the end" and "perserverence." It was easy enough to end the persecutions against you--just renounce Christ. Many people yielded to that temptation. Many who didn't were tortured and killed. So of course the question on every Christians mind back then was "When is Jesus going to come and save us from this awful suffering." The answer was this: "If God were to stop the clock on the world right now, many many people would be lost because they haven't had the chance to hear the gospel message. So long as the world's time clock continues, yes there will be more suffering, but even more people will have a chance to repent. It is God's desire that everyone repent, so time will continue so that as many as possible can do that."

So another perspective on the suffering issue is to say, "My continued suffering--which is a temporary thing in light of eternity--buys time for somebody else to hear the gospel and be saved." Of course, this perspective would only work for believers.
 

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star2589 said:
I've heard a lot of christians argue that the reason there is suffering in this life, is that the only alternative would be to not have free will, which would defeat the purpose of living.

what about heaven? there is no suffering in heaven, so there cannot possibly be free will. whats the point of going to heaven?

why is there a different attitude toward free will in heaven vs on earth?
What free will? Worship me, or burn in hell? Free will, what a joke!
 

Apostle13

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Mr. D said:
What free will? Worship me, or burn in hell? Free will, what a joke!
Isn't that nice..? Especially in that you are free to believe that... And then able and willing to say/write it here.
What an AWESOME God we serve!
Want some?
 

nkgupta80

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Rev. said:
Wouldn't make any difference...people choose to repeat the same mistakes all the time. They might have learned a lesson, but they choose to ignore it.
well as followup, why couldn't God create us with so much intelligence that doing the wrong thing would be as stupid and repulsive as slitting our own throats or jumping off a cliff. This doesn't go against free will at all. Im still given the choice to do whatever, but Im just too smart to choose the wrong choice. If we were all given this innate knowledge from when we were born, then there would be no suffering. We'd be at such a high unimaginable level of intelligence and being that the choice of repeating a mistake wouldn't enter our heads. The possibilities are endless (especially when you assume that an all-powerful limitless god is creating humans).
 
F

FallingPianos

Apostle13 said:
Good answer... Allow me to elaborate a little..?
There is free will in heaven. Evident by fallen angels. When one comes to know, experience, suffer the consequences of sin here on earth... Evil doing in heaven should and will become a non-option... As we will have learned from our mistakes.
how will we have learned from our mistakes? why would death suddenly make us learn from our mistakes?

furthermore, if suffering could be eliminated by giving us enough wisdom to not cause suffering, why didnt god just give us that wisdom on earth?
 
F

FallingPianos

Rev. said:
Wouldn't make any difference...people choose to repeat the same mistakes all the time. They might have learned a lesson, but they choose to ignore it.
but people dont choose to ignore it when they are in heaven?
 

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star2589 said:
but people dont choose to ignore it when they are in heaven?
Now you're in the realm of speculation because the Bible simply doesn't tell us enough about heaven for us to now how it works.

Personally, I think the Judgement locks us in to our choice. If we choose God and go to heaven, we won't be able to change our mind. Certainly if we reject God and go to hell, we won't be able to change our mind. But once we're there, once we are in the presence of God, we won't want to be anywhere else or do anything else but worship Him. I don't believe heaven will be an eternity of doing the things we've enjoyed doing here on earth...Sunday afternoon ball games, floating down a lazy river on a sunny afternoon, talking with friends etc. The Bible describes it as a wedding feast...we will be celebrating! Celebrating our victory over Satan, celebrating our privilege of being in God's presence. I think our attention is going to be so consumed by celebrating that any thoughts of "choice" are going to disappear. The Bible says we will be given glorified bodies. I suspect "free will" is going to be one of those "earthly things" we will count as rags.
 

kal-el

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Rev. said:
Now you're in the realm of speculation because the Bible simply doesn't tell us enough about heaven for us to now how it works.
From what I understand, the Koran gives a much more detailed description of the Islam "heaven."
 

tecoyah

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kal-el said:
What are you talking about? God could be black for all we know. It never says in the Bible, it's just assumed he's white. But he did create man in his own image, so you can roll the dice.

Actually...I was refering to my...uh...Pagan tendencies, and used the Racist sarcastic connotation as a form of Humor....which failed dramatically....heh
 
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