Formula 1 Racing 2024

[element94]

Anyone interested? I've seen past season threads languish here.
I casually followed the sport before I got serious about 15 years ago.
2024 is their longest season yet with 24 dates

F1 Schedule 2024 - Official Calendar of Grand Prix Races

Watch the next Grand Prix live. From Bahrain to Abu Dhabi, don't miss a single turn. Find everything you need to follow the action in the F1 2024 calendar.

www.formula1.com

After the second race of the season yesterday in Saudi Arabia (on the shores of the Red Sea!), 2024 is shaping up as Max Verstappen total domination again. They may need a calendar soon to track his leads (at one point in the first race this season in Bahrain, Verstappen held a 40 second lead over second place! A gigantic lead in the formerly tight F1 of late). I'm beginning to lose interest because of it. While McLaren and Ferrari coming on last year was great, no one can seem to consistently crack Red Bull and the excitement is starting to wane only two races in.
Hamilton is moving to Ferrari in 2025, so maybe there is hope for that. Will we see if it's man or machine? Still, cracking Red Bull's domination is the most pressing, no matter who can do it.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

A gigantic lead in the formerly tight F1 of late). I'm beginning to lose interest because of it.

I've been a fan since 1973. The only times I deliberately stopped watching was when a team had an unfair advantage built in.

Schumacher's ferrari 2000-2004 had Bridgestone tyres that nobody else was allowed to use and the Ferraris regularly finished races up to 60 seconds ahead of the nearest competition. Barrichelo wasn't allowed to race Schumacher so those races tended to be processions.

I stopped watching last year - in 2017, Ross Brawn (then technical director for the new 2022 regulations) promised closer racing and that the cars and racing would be more closely matched but then he wrote in aero regulations that only one aero designer had any previous experience of (and he happens to also be the best aero guy in F1) and we now have the processional racing that we've had these last two seasons.

Only good thing so far is that the Red Bull went up in flames in Australia this morning and Max had already been overtaken when that happened so we could have (not holding out any hope) some actual racing and competition at the front this year.

 

[element94]

I've been a fan since 1973. The only times I deliberately stopped watching was when a team had an unfair advantage built in.

Schumacher's ferrari 2000-2004 had Bridgestone tyres that nobody else was allowed to use and the Ferraris regularly finished races up to 60 seconds ahead of the nearest competition. Barrichelo wasn't allowed to race Schumacher so those races tended to be processions.

I stopped watching last year - in 2017, Ross Brawn (then technical director for the new 2022 regulations) promised closer racing and that the cars and racing would be more closely matched but then he wrote in aero regulations that only one aero designer had any previous experience of (and he happens to also be the best aero guy in F1) and we now have the processional racing that we've had these last two seasons.

Only good thing so far is that the Red Bull went up in flames in Australia this morning and Max had already been overtaken when that happened so we could have (not holding out any hope) some actual racing and competition at the front this year.

And, of course, Hamilton soon followed suit. Then later, George ends up on his side with a lap to go, DNF! Mercedes can't buy a break.
I thought the exclamations of " that car is a rocket ship", about Perez, were hilarious. It's pretty clear Red Bull could dominate again this year.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Then later, George ends up on his side with a lap to go

At least Alonso got his deserved punishment for illegal brake checking Russell.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I stopped watching last year - in 2017, Ross Brawn (then technical director for the new 2022 regulations) promised closer racing and that the cars and racing would be more closely matched but then he wrote in aero regulations that only one aero designer had any previous experience of (and he happens to also be the best aero guy in F1) and we now have the processional racing that we've had these last two seasons.

The difference right now, that I think most are missing, is that Max has a driving style that works a tiny bit better than everyone else. The proof is comparing him with his teammate. If it was entirely the car, Perez would be consistently 2nd or occasionally beat Max which was not the story in '23. We are looking at the top 10 qualifying within 1 second of each other. The cars are are unbelievably close in performance (which is just amazing to me considering all of the variables, they are really getting the most out of the tires), Max is able to consistently get the most lap after lap out of his RB.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

The difference right now, that I think most are missing, is that Max has a driving style that works a tiny bit better than everyone else. The proof is comparing him with his teammate. If it was entirely the car, Perez would be consistently 2nd or occasionally beat Max which was not the story in '23. We are looking at the top 10 qualifying within 1 second of each other. The cars are are unbelievably close in performance (which is just amazing to me considering all of the variables, they are really getting the most out of the tires), Max is able to consistently get the most lap after lap out of his RB.

Checo came 2nd last year in the RB................... that's the proof of last year's superior car.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Checo came 2nd last year in the RB................... that's the proof of last year's superior car.

You are talking total points, I'm talking about individual race results. Perez only had 4 2nd places in 2023. Lando had more than Checo.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Vettle when he drove for Red Bull had a similar success story. His driving style, making turns into more of a v-shaped in/exit, suited the RB. Max's style is similar, he sets up the car mid corner for maximum exit speed, lengthening his on-throttle time.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

You are talking total points, I'm talking about individual race results. Perez only had 4 2nd places in 2023. Lando had more than Checo.

It's still the best car on the grid by far and Max is the best driver at the moment in the best car.

Ross Brawn and Tombazis brought in Ground Effect to try and equalise F1 cars, improve on aero effect and everything "would" have been OK if they had remembered that Adrian Newey has huge experience with Ground Effect cars including designing Ground Effect cars that won in America with the March 82G GTP and then the March 85C which won the Indy 500 and the whole CART championship using Ground Effect. Then you have the same thing happening with the March 86C and years later, F1 brings in Ground Effect where only ONE aero designer has any previous experience and that experience is 3-4 years winning American titles with Ground Effect...

It's as bad for racing as Schumacher and his personal Bridgestone tyres that nobody else was allowed to use.

I complain because in 2016, many F1 fans like me were surveyed by the FIA for what we wanted to see and the outcome was we wanted closer racing, more overtakes and less impact of a car that would leave the rest of the field by a huge margin.

In 2017, Brawn even promised “We have three teams that can win races at the moment, that’s all,” he says. “Over the next couple of years, Formula 1 will be on a much better path… where a really good, moderately-funded team, can cause a lot of trouble. That’s what we want. If you get a Charles Leclerc or a Max Verstappen in a midfield team, it can make a difference. It won’t matter at the moment."

He also talks about the new rules being "designed to stop one team discovering a ‘silver bullet’ that allows them to crush the opposition."

"if they can take the approach that these regulations are the same for everyone and ‘we’re going to do a better job than anyone else, we just won’t be two seconds faster, we’ll be two-tenths faster’ – that’s what we want from Formula 1....”

FIA and F1 unveils vision for new regulations | Race Tech Magazine

www.racetechmag.com

Well, they plainly failed for 2022 and 2023. Max is brilliant but put him in a car which comes from the mind of the only highly experienced Ground Effect specialist and you have what we see now.

The only hope is that Ferrari can compete and not shoot themselves in the foot once they start competing at the front.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

It's still the best car on the grid by far

NO, not by "far", by tenths/hundreds of a sec per lap, and as shown by Perez being unable to consistently capture 2nd on the podium. It does have a slightly bigger advantage on certain tracks, but again, the biggest reason Max is wining....is due to his ability to utilize the car, it suites his style, RB has built it/set it up to match that.

and Max is the best driver at the moment in the best car.

Thats what I said, but it in no way is parallel to Schumi/Fer days, it is not at that level of differentiation, his teammate was on the podium 9 of 17 times in 2000, 4 retirements, 4 4ths. When running, Reubens never finished worse than 4th. The car was even better in 01, Reubens was on the podium 10 times, only 3 retirements.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

NO, not by "far", by tenths/hundreds of a sec per lap, and as shown by Perez being unable to consistently capture 2nd on the podium. It does have a slightly bigger advantage on certain tracks, but again, the biggest reason Max is wining....is due to his ability to utilize the car, it suites his style, RB has built it/set it up to match that.

Thanks for your honesty. Most Max fans I've discussed with are desperate to argue that Red Bull don't set cars up to suit Max.

Nice to meet someone who acknowledges what Red Bull do.

Thats what I said, but it in no way is parallel to Schumi/Fer days, it is not at that level of differentiation, his teammate was on the podium 9 of 17 times in 2000, 4 retirements, 4 4ths. When running, Reubens never finished worse than 4th. The car was even better in 01, Reubens was on the podium 10 times, only 3 retirements.

Sorry, you're deflecting away from the performance of the car which even Max has agreed.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Thanks for your honesty. Most Max fans I've discussed with are desperate to argue that Red Bull don't set cars up to suit Max.

Thats silly, it is a near universal condition in F! teams throughout its history.

Nice to meet someone who acknowledges what Red Bull do.



Sorry, you're deflecting away from the performance of the car which even Max has agreed.

No, I'm not, I'm presenting data that confirms how little there is between the teams cars today versus 2000-01. Again, less than 1 sec covers the top 10 in Q these days, versus multiple secs then. The field of cars AND the drivers are tighter today.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Thats silly, it is a near universal condition in F! teams throughout its history.

No, I'm not, I'm presenting data that confirms how little there is between the teams cars today versus 2000-01. Again, less than 1 sec covers the top 10 in Q these days, versus multiple secs then. The field of cars AND the drivers are tighter today.

Honestly, I think I'd done here. Always ends up this way with Max fans I'm afraid.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Anyone interested? I've seen past season threads languish here.
I casually followed the sport before I got serious about 15 years ago.
2024 is their longest season yet with 24 dates


After the second race of the season yesterday in Saudi Arabia (on the shores of the Red Sea!), 2024 is shaping up as Max Verstappen total domination again. They may need a calendar soon to track his leads (at one point in the first race this season in Bahrain, Verstappen held a 40 second lead over second place! A gigantic lead in the formerly tight F1 of late). I'm beginning to lose interest because of it. While McLaren and Ferrari coming on last year was great, no one can seem to consistently crack Red Bull and the excitement is starting to wane only two races in.
Hamilton is moving to Ferrari in 2025, so maybe there is hope for that. Will we see if it's man or machine? Still, cracking Red Bull's domination is the most pressing, no matter who can do it.

I have come to loathe formula one....even the mention of the name Max Ver****ingwhater makes me want to heave. They have ONE star?

They have SO HYPED the ****ing shit out it I'm sick to death of even a mention.

It's as exciting to watch as go cart racing, and the carts look like their going faster.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Honestly, I think I'd done here. Always ends up this way with Max fans I'm afraid.

I don't particularly like Max, but he is the best right now in F1. I don't like RB much (save for Newey), but they have put together an awesome team. I do love F1 because of the combo of engineering projects and driver skills. I'm will remain amazed that these various cars, with different designs and drivers have such incredibly close laptimes.

I've raced motox and some scca in the past, still run simulators and race online with Assetto, the skill levels of these kids is insane, as is the tech. I'm in awe of what they do.

 

[element94]

The difference right now, that I think most are missing, is that Max has a driving style that works a tiny bit better than everyone else. The proof is comparing him with his teammate. If it was entirely the car, Perez would be consistently 2nd or occasionally beat Max which was not the story in '23. We are looking at the top 10 qualifying within 1 second of each other. The cars are are unbelievably close in performance (which is just amazing to me considering all of the variables, they are really getting the most out of the tires), Max is able to consistently get the most lap after lap out of his RB.

True. Look at the difference in qualifying with close to half the field within a second of the leader. I just wish there wasn't this trend of the last ten years, or so, of near total domination by one team, and, as we know, this is Red Bull's second go around in that regard.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

If you want a drivers series, there are plenty of balance of power competitions and single makes.

F1 has always been about the manufacturer and the driver.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

as we know, this is Red Bull's second go around in that regard.

Vettel's 4 championships were not achieved through engineering domination or rules that benefitted Adrian Newey. They had a great car but so did the other teams and Alonso almost dragged his Ferrari to the 2012 championship victory.

Ground Effect benefits Red Bull as you'll have seen this last two years. Newey is the only F1 person with any experience in designing GE cars and the Bulls just ran away with the race in Japan.

Oh, I forget - just in case any Max fans are here, Max is an utter god and his amazing driving is why he and Checo cantered away in 1st and 2nd place today. He is so brilliant that the vortices rom his godlike driving just pulled Checo and his dumpster Red Bull into 2nd.

 

[element94]

Vettel's 4 championships were not achieved through engineering domination or rules that benefitted Adrian Newey. They had a great car but so did the other teams and Alonso almost dragged his Ferrari to the 2012 championship victory.

Ground Effect benefits Red Bull as you'll have seen this last two years. Newey is the only F1 person with any experience in designing GE cars and the Bulls just ran away with the race in Japan.

Oh, I forget - just in case any Max fans are here, Max is an utter god and his amazing driving is why he and Checo cantered away in 1st and 2nd place today. He is so brilliant that the vortices rom his godlike driving just pulled Checo and his dumpster Red Bull into 2nd.

I'm not a Verstappen hater. It's the single team domination (mostly). I'd rather see another closer matchup, like we had a couple years ago with Hamilton and Verstappen wrecking each other.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Max is an utter god and his amazing driving is why he and Checo cantered away in 1st and 2nd place today.

Checo's 8 second gap over Carlos, after 50 laps (3 subtracted after restart) amounts to 0.15 sec/lap.
Checo is not a better driver than Carlos. I can't keep my laps on a simulator within 0.15 of each other. The difference in the cars is so marginal.

Note, everyone knew that RB would probably win because the track has lots of high speed corners where their aero package was slightly, marginally, superior. It is also a drivers track where those without the best techniques get left behind.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I'm not a Verstappen hater.

Neither am I.
He's the best driver at the moment but he's also (like Hamilton before him 2014-16 and then 2019-2020) having domination guaranteed by his car being designed by the only person with previous winning experience of designing Ground Effect racing cars.

It's the single team domination (mostly). I'd rather see another closer matchup, like we had a couple years ago with Hamilton and Verstappen wrecking each other.

2014 - 2024+ are not great representations of what Formula 1 can be or used to be. At least when Mercedes first dominated - they had two of the top drivers pushing each other for victories between 14 and Rosberg's retirement after the '16 season. Bottas was a weak teammate but a lot of people who complain about Mercedes domination forget that the Ferrari driven by Vettel and Raikkonen often started the season stronger before Mercedes caught up - such as 2017 / 2018. There was little mechanically to separate the cars and this article also shows yet another Mercedes innovation that was banned to slow them down.

People also forget that the FIA tweaked the rules pretty often to try and slow Mercedes down - one year the tweaks backfired and cost Red Bull millions to recover from. 2021 was a result of the changed aero rules finally hampering the Mercedes so that Red Bull's car could compete. The sliding scale designed by Tombazis and Brawn which was meant to even things out isn't working. Red Bull's aero advantage is locked in for the next few years and it's got very little to do with Max's skills at the moment. It will take Red Bull aero guys being tempted over to other teams in the way Mercedes lost huge numbers of engineers to Red Bull in 2020 / 2021 to spread the knowledge and technical secrets.

Right now, Verstappen's car is untouchable. Red Bull have a number 1 driver policy and so there is no internal competition in the team. When Checo dared win at Monaco in 2022 - Max's father was livid and blasted the team for allowing Checo to win in Monaco.

Max Verstappen's dad Jos criticises Red Bull for 'throwing away' points, favouring Sergio Perez in Monaco GP

Jos Verstappen on Red Bull at the Monaco GP: I think 10 points from Max have been thrown away here. Especially with the two retirements weve had, we need every point. Dont forget that Ferrari currently has a better car.

www.skysports.com

RB fans may be happy but a lot of neutral fans are switched off - as I said before, it's like the Schumacher years when ferrari had bespoke Bridgestone tyres and F1 races were a procession. (Before the FIA brought in a rule change to slow them down)

Coming back to what I said previously - "great representations of what Formula 1 can be or used to be" - I watched Gilles Villeneuve battle out with Rene Arnoux and I also saw Nelson Piquet battle hard with Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost in the 80's. More recently in the early 2010s - there were seasons with early races where drivers from 4 different teams won and unpredictability was high. That was what Brawn and Tombazis seemed to be trying to achieve....

And have let neutral fans down spectacularly.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

"Lando is a little bit a glass half empty guy," Rosberg observed, discussing Norris's approach to racing. "I don’t think that’s the best approach in general. I think more positivity would be helpful."
. "Nevertheless, he had a phenomenal drive, he drove so well. Certainly together with Max, the best driver of the day easily. The consistency, there was no degradation on his car which was amazing to see," Rosberg commended.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

And Adrian Newey is going to leave Red Bull.

That will set the cat among the pigeons - however the current Red Bull car carries all of Newey's design thoughts and philosophy so I don't expect any slowdown in the Red Bull for at least another year. Newey apparently believes he doesn't even have to take "gardening leave" so he could be at the Ferrari or Aston Martin or Mercedes design studios pretty soon.

What a year so far OFF the track.

Adrian Newey: Red Bull design chief to leave over Christian Horner allegations

Red Bull design chief Adrian Newey is to leave the team in the wake of the controversy involving allegations about team principal Christian Horner.

www.bbc.co.uk