Florida lawmakers allowed into ‘Alligator Alcatraz’ say detainees packed into cages

[Trumpetman]

If there were a reasonable path to immigration there would not be so many undocumented workers.

That's like saying if you gave away what thieves were stealing, there would be no crime.

They’re obviously finding work — employers are willing to pay for their labor — another indication that the system needs comprehensive reform.

They are finding work, at the expense of American workers.

DJT’s solution is the result of listening to the wrong people. Renditions were wrong under GWB, and still wrong under the current administration.

Again no thought of reform, only of punishment — which leaves the conditions that prompted the arrival of so many undocumented immigrants still intact.

Then there’s the problem of not recognizing refugees . . .

You guys have been turning "support criminals" into losing positions and elections since before the BLM movement. Please keep doing it!

 

[Trumpetman]

So, you cannot prove that most undocumented immigrants are paid under the table?

If that's the case, why did you bring that point up?

Just to clarify here, because I'm noticing a pattern, and it's so prevalent you can even guess the next step, I was making a counterpoint against an unsupported point.

That point was that illegal immigrants pay lots of taxes, especially taxes that they won't collect like Social Security.

To pay Social Security you need a Social Security numbers or an ITEN.

Now here is your next action since you are predictable. "Well you said ALL (not I didn't) and you can't even prove MOST work under the table." You'll then demand I prove my point while ignoring the claim that all illegal immigrants pay lots of taxes was never supported, just asserted.

Back the issue of taxes paid by undocumented immigrants: that they pay state and local taxes is obvious. And that at least some - who knows, maybe most?? - pay Social Security taxes is also obvious. And, because undocumented immigrants who pay SS taxes are not allowed to draw SS benefits, those workers are subsidizing the checks many of us receive.

State taxes if they are sales, yes. Income, maybe not. Do they pay property taxes, if they are renting but there are workarounds on tthat as well if you live far above the reasonable capacity limits for those units.

I've checked and since Federally there is no box to check for immigration status when you pay taxes so the argument would be about what number an ivory tower intellectual has pulled out of their ass.

The reality is you can't have it both ways in your argument. These "jobs Americans won't do" can't pay well or else Americans would do them. There's also just the ability to lie on paper, especially with people who have no paperwork.

"I pay you for 20 hours a week but you have to work 40 hours a week. I don't want to pay more for all those taxes and other bullshit."

"So I get the rest under the table?"

"No dammit, you just work 40 hours a week for shit pay. You're an illegal."

If you claim these are well paying, fully above board jobs, Americans would take them and since January Americans HAVE been taking them. Employment figures show native born workers adding 2 million jobs and foreign born workers losing half a million jobs.

 

[NatMorton]

Like I said elsewhere, many of them DIDN’T enter illegally. But even if they did, it’s a civil infraction, which makes them as much a criminal as someone who gets a speeding ticket.

Do we not enforce speed limit laws? Fail to pay your next speeding ticket and see what happens.

And whether they circumvented the border or stayed longer than their terms of entry allowed, it makes no difference. If you're in the country illegally the US has every right to ask you to leave, and if you fail to cooperate every right to force you to leave.

Seriously, what do you think the purpose of immigration law is?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I've copied-and-pasted the ACLU stastatement.

You just apparently haven't read it. Because it is saying exactly what I've been saying.

 

[Allan]

Looks like a prison.

In a 3rd world country. That was the intention.

 

[The Brad Dad]

White people were always the majority on the jobs where I worked hot afternoons.

I don't know how it was walking the dogs.

Yeah, we’re sure white people were indeed the majority on the jobs you worked.

 

[snakestretcher]

Improper entry by an alien in violation of 8 USC 1325 is punishable by up to six months in prison for a first offense.

That ain't a civil violation, pal.

Yeah, racists love that law.

Unauthorized Entry & Re-entry Prosecutions

nipnlg.org

 

[snakestretcher]

Misdemeanors are often punishable by fines and up to a year imprisonment.

I don't think you understand the concept of trespass.

If you're trespassed from a property, you're in effect told to remove yourself from that property. If you do, generally all good.

But if you return after having been trespassed, or trespassed when warning signs forbidding trespassing were up, then that can be criminal trespass.

Trespass is usually a civil offence. There is also aggravated trespass; a more serious criminal offense.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Yeah, racists love that law.

Unauthorized Entry & Re-entry Prosecutions

nipnlg.org

What a dumb thing to say.

 

[snakestretcher]

A misdemeanor is criminal, not civil, by definition.

Alligator Alcatraz is such a fitting name. Even if you escape, you're in danger.

I bet you're real happy that these mostly entirely innocent people are caged like animals. Since when has wanting a better life attracted criminal penalties? 'Land of the free'? Garbage!

 

[JMB1911A1]

Post #495 bears repeating:

Credit goes to @Absentglare for finding and providing this cite (Post #478)

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/...ted_immigrants_issue_brief_PUBLIC_VERSION.pdf

...Is the fact of being present in the United States in violation of the immigration laws a crime?

No. The act of being present in the United States in violation of the immigration laws is not, standing alone, a crime. While federal immigration law does criminalize some actions that may be related to undocumented presence in the United States, undocumented presence alone is not a violation of federal criminal law. Thus, many believe that the term “illegal alien,” which may suggest a criminal violation, is inaccurate or misleading.

Entering the United States without being inspected and admitted, i.e., illegal entry, is a misdemeanor or can be a felony, depending on the circumstances. 8 U.S.C. § 1325. But many undocumented immigrants do not enter the United States illegally. They enter legally but overstay, work without authorization, drop out of school or violate the conditions of their visas in some other way. Current estimates are that approximately 45% of undocumented immigrants did not enter illegally. See Pew Hispanic Center, Modes of Entry for the Unauthorized Migrant Population [May 22, 2006].

Undocumented presence in the United States is only criminally punishable if it occurs after an individual was previously formally removed from the United States and then returned without permission. 8 U.S.C. § 1326 (any individual previously “deported or removed” who “enters, attempts to enter, or is at any time found in” the United States without authorization may be punished by imprisonment up to two years). Mere undocumented presence in the United States alone, however, in the absence of a previous removal order and unauthorized reentry, is not a crime under federal law....

```````````````````````

Per the ACLU, "The act of being present in the United States in violation of the immigration laws is not, standing alone, a crime. While federal immigration law does criminalize some actions that may be related to undocumented presence in the United States, undocumented presence alone is not a violation of federal criminal law."

Per the post from the ACLU that you keep quoting.

Entering the United States without being inspected and admitted, i.e., illegal entry, is a misdemeanor or can be a felony, depending on the circumstances. 8 U.S.C. § 1325.

 

[RF667799]

Yeah, we’re sure white people were indeed the majority on the jobs you worked.

I just told you they were. But why would you expect differently?

 

[RF667799]

Trespass is usually a civil offence. There is also aggravated trespass; a more serious criminal offense.

Criminal trespass is...guess what? That's right, a criminal offense. In my state, criminal trespass is entering onto property that is marked as no trespassing, or property from which one has previously been trespassed.

Which state trespassing laws are you referring to?

 

[RF667799]

I bet you're real happy that these mostly entirely innocent people are caged like animals. Since when has wanting a better life attracted criminal penalties? 'Land of the free'? Garbage!

"Mostly entirely"

 

[The Brad Dad]

I just told you they were. But why would you expect differently?

I think I expressed the proper amount of non-shock at this statement.

 

[MTAtech]

Adam Serwer wrote in The Atlantic, the cruelty is the point.

This should be called Alligator Auschwitz, as it really is a concentration camp. Patriotic Americans should be embarrassed that it exists.

 

[RF667799]

I think I expressed the proper amount of non-shock at this statement.

You thought it was remarkable that a demographic comprising a majority of the population could reasonably be expected to comprise the majority in a job. Are you so often astounded by the mundane?

 

[The Brad Dad]

You thought it was remarkable that a demographic comprising a majority of the population could reasonably be expected to comprise the majority in a job. Are you so often astounded by the mundane?

I don't know why you're so upset about this. You work with mostly white people on all the jobs you've had. What's the problem here, specifically?

 

[RF667799]

I don't know why you're so upset about this. You work with mostly white people on all the jobs you've had. What's the problem here, specifically?

I don't have a problem with it. You're the one who thinks it is remarkable, though you haven't articulated why.

 

[The Brad Dad]

I don't have a problem with it. You're the one who thinks it is remarkable, though you haven't articulated why.

I haven't. I'm sure you're right, your jobs are completely unremarkable. AGAIn, what's the problem here?

 

[RF667799]

I haven't. I'm sure you're right, your jobs are completely unremarkable. AGAIn, what's the problem here?

Again, I have no problem but you keep remarking on the demographics of my work places for some reason.

Maybe you thought only certain people are suited for working in hot conditions, and it surprised you to find out differently.

 

[Absentglare]

The presumption of innocence has nothing to do with whether improper entry is a criminal act. It is a criminal act.

So you want to just brand whoever you want a criminal based on mere accusation.

Like how Trump’s admin faked evidence against Abrego Garcia. You think that’s good? It’s not even a kangaroo court, it’s just a clown and a guillotine.

 

[Absentglare]

No, I objected to it being called a civil violation instead of a criminal act. My statutory citation, and your link to the ACLU, all say exactly that.


What has this got to do with whether improper entry by an alien is a criminal act?

The group of “illegal immigrants” have not actually committed crimes.

It seems you’re really struggling with that fact.

 

[Absentglare]

So it was irrelevant to the idea proposed that white people won't or can't work in hot conditions.

Yes.

Why didn't you just say so, instead of trying to compare it to my experiences working in hot conditions?

I wasn’t trying to compare it.

 

[Absentglare]

Do we not enforce speed limit laws? Fail to pay your next speeding ticket and see what happens.

And whether they circumvented the border or stayed longer than their terms of entry allowed, it makes no difference. If you're in the country illegally the US has every right to ask you to leave, and if you fail to cooperate every right to force you to leave.

Seriously, what do you think the purpose of immigration law is?

It’s not immigration laws I take issue with.

It’s the condemning people to death without trial. CECOT brags the only way out is in a body bag.

Why do we need to be so harsh on people who are otherwise following the law? Because they didn’t satisfy the right wing bureaucracy? They didn’t fill out enough paperwork? They didn’t have $5M to buy Trump’s gold card?