Florida High School Student Suspended After Handing Out Pride Flags

[poppopfox]

You don't approve of Abraham? I thought Budhists were more tolerant than your come off?

Lots of killing and slaying of thine enemies in that old code/testament. Both Buddha and Jesus were against that, Buddha some 600 years before Jesus. Why is it that your beliefs promote intolerance?

YOU are the one attempting besmerch our way of raising OUR children. You are upset becaue we don't want YOU and yours talking to our young children about topics we forbid you to talk to them about. Stop giving us "advice" we arent the ones confusing kids.

Sure you are, otherwise you would let your children be free to choose their own religion and/or philosophy of life when they were mature enough to do so. Is that due to a lack of faith on your part, that children don't get to make that choice in your book?

Why, you would never agree with anything that might be based on Judeo-Christian standards and values anyway.

A wrong-headed projection above, I've adapted much of Jesus' teaching into my own beliefs and there a growing number of Christian who also take to heart the teachings of Buddha. The teachings of the two with regard to how we treat each other is remarkedly similar.

My children are too---- now that they are adults and we all on equal ground. But trying to be you child's friend when they are young prevents you from being in charge of them when they need you to be. What "friend" gets to tell anothe "friend", no, you can't do that?

A good friend?

No, I got paid. Paid for actually creating something, not for selling snake oil.

Thought your god does all the creating?

The New Testament fulfills the Old Testament, there is no contradiction.

No, it doesn't and yes, there is.

 

[jonny5]

Well, yes. The issue with that part of the bill is how vaguely worded it is. Especially considering that in my experience conservatives seem to view being Gay as like a kink or fetish type thing.

However, the REAL issue with the bill is that it requires the school to inform parents if they find out the child is LGBTQ+. What this means is if there is a child with abusive parents, they have to hide their identity in school and at home as well.


The school approved the protest. They even scheduled a time slot for it.

How is that the real issue and not schools and teachers parenting children and hiding information about their children from parents? Who should decide what children should be taught about sex, their parents or you?

 

[MrNiceGuy]

I respect your opinion. I attended high school with an older brother who was born with multiple disabilities and was in a special ed program before mainstreaming came about. Leaving aside the academic standards, I don't know if you are aware of the type and frequency of bullying that took place back in the 60's but these children every day had to endure being referred to as retards and such. Happened in the hallways, happened at the bus stops, and most of the teachers turned a blind eye and deaf ear towards the abuse. Mainstreaming has changed that and I think it a worthwhile net benefit to our society that the transition took place. I wish your grandchild the best my friend.

I tend to agree with you, that mainstreaming as much as possible is a benefit. I will add that the arbitrary categorization of kids in school did not help educate the kids. In my kids' school, they combine grades, so my daughter is in grades 1 through 3. She is technically grade 3, but she has been in the same classroom for now in her third year, first as a first grader, then as a second grader and now as a third grader. The theory behind it is that a first grader who excels in something can spring ahead and work with the second or third graders to achieve more without it being obvious that the person has advanced to another grade level - the socialization element of kids being with their peers of the same age is not disrupted by either holding back or advancing students a grade. The rules in the class are that if a first grader has a question, they are to ask an older student first, and then it proceeds to the teacher. The kids help each other. If a second grader falls behind in an activity or subject, they don't get left back, someone helps them, and they pay more attention to that area. The same is true for special needs kids. They can be mainstreamed unless the issue extreme, and the class deals with it. But, the class is not held back because of a slower student. Those that excel can excel, and those that are slower move slower.

The public school system with its regimentation and rows, and its "leveling" tendency are not good. We had a friend move her daughter from another school to our school because her daughter was good at math and yet the school was making her repeat over and over the 2+2 stuff that others in the public school system were up to. There was no room for this girl who excelled in maths to advance to multiplication and division, because she had to proceed only with the class. That, to me, is a horrible way to educate, as it will effectively crush the all important "love of learnng" that students start out with, but ultimately the public school system crushes that love, and students wind up drooling on their desks and staring at the clock waiting for the bell or buzzer to sound.

The result in our school which had the combined grades in one class, and a built in ability to help the slower students and advance the better students is that our school passes all the required tests to the tune of 90+% compared to the neighboring public schools which are at 65% to 70%. Literallly blows them away. And this is not a private school - it's a charter school which anyone can go to.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

How is that the real issue and not schools and teachers parenting children and hiding information about their children from parents?

So, if a child is gay, has parents that are openly hostile towards gay people, and the child expresses that they are gay at school but hides it at home...you think the school is obligated to expose that kid to abuse from their parents at home?

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Hmm what message ro you think is NOW being conveyed by teachers that such a bill is necessary?

I'm not "trying to make the bill sound reasonable"I'm reading it, and trying to figure out why anyone else thinks it is "unreasonable," based on the language of the bill. I linked to the bill. Can you quote the part that you think is the worst, most objectionable part of it?

You said - "That you are trying to portray this bills something other than a bill that's intent is to squash any way a teacher can teach their class that parents with two dads exist or that some boys start as boys but feel they need yo be girls exist. And that those people need to be treated with respect." In K-3, there is no need to and it is not appropriate to have a teacher give his or her opinion as to the propriety of two, three, or 12 dads or moms, no moms and dads, and the feelings of being boys or girls or both or neither or whatever. In K-3, the curriculum is letters, reading, writing, arithmetic, rudimentary science, rudimentary history, art, language, PE, recess, lunch, that kind of thing. They aren't learning "gender theory" and they aren't having philosophical discussions.

Regarding "respect" - naturally, the rule in school is that all students are treated with respect or should be, and that nobody should be teased, bullied, or abused in any way, by a teacher, staff or other student, regardless of any quality or issue the student has, or regardless of their family status or lack thereof. Nothing in the bill suggests that a teacher cannot address a disciplinary issue in class.

On the issue of what I seem to think the bill is "about." I can tell you what the bill says. And it says, regarding the teaching topics issue, that school districts may not encourage "classroom discussion" of sexual orientation and gender identity in the K-3 range. That's what it says, and as long as they aren't doing that, then there is no legal violation. But, if they do encourage classroom discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity, then that is a problem and I would very much be opposed to a teacher holding such a classroom discussion among K-3 students. One reason I would oppose it is that these tend not to be "discussions." These are lectures, by which only one view is acceptable and that other views are "hate" and phobia. What if a student in the third grade classroom discussion says "yeah, I was talking about this at home with my parents, and I think I don't accept the gender identity thing, and I think there are two sexes and that is that?" Will that student's view be part of the "discussion?" I am also sure that 1st through 3rd grade teachers are not experts on child psychology or child sexual psychology, and they are not trained or educated in those areas - in Florida, they have a bachelor's degree and at least 30 credits (one year) of elementary education classes. That's it. So, they aren't generally qualified to do this. Their job is to teach reading, writing, rithmetic, art, crafts, PE, language, and that kind of thing.

I'm not even concerned about how "explicit" they get with a discussion of sexual orientation. I don't think my kindergartener student needs a teacher sitting her and the other students down to discuss "so, kids, let's talk about sexual orientation - do you know what sexual orientation is? No? Well let me explain - sex is something people do to give each other a kind of pleasure or fun - they rub each other in certain places and hug and at some point one partner might put parts of themelves inside the other and it feels good. The orientation part means which kind of person you might like to do that with. Some people like people of the same sex as them, and some like people of the opposite sex...." How much class time do you want spent on this? With the kindergarten through 3rd graders? I mean - if you're objecting to prohibiting that discussion, you must think it's not inappropriate, right? What do you want discussed in the classroom

Deviating from curriculum? I have two kids.. There is appropriate curriculum for a sexual orientation and gender identity class in grades K through 3. So, nothing would "prevent" the school from discharging a teacher for going outside the curriculum and teaching about it now. the law just says essentially - if you have or intend to have teachers teaching sexual orientation material to kids in the K-3 range, you can't do it now, so don't.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

So, if a child is gay, has parents that are openly hostile towards gay people, and the child expresses that they are gay at school but hides it at home...you think the school is obligated to expose that kid to abuse from their parents at home?

The answer is that if there is a reasonable suspicion of abuse, then the teacher has a legal obligation to report it to the school and the authorities, and so does anyone else in the school administration or teaching staff that knows about it, and the bill specifically preserves that and says that in that circumstance, the teacher cannot disclose to the parents and must disclose to the authorities.

What you cannot do is have a teacher just assume that parents at home are abusing the child or "might" abuse the child and therefore not tell the parents.

If a teacher knows parents were "openly hostile" to gay people, then it all depends on what is meant by "hostile." Did dad beat up a gay person? Did they make threats? Or, are they Christians who think homosexuality is a sin and that is how they are raising their child. If it's threats or assaults that are the hostility, see the obligation of a teacher to report abuse or neglect. If it's that parents think homosexuality is wrong, then tough titties. A teacher doesn't get to replace his or her morality for the parents' morality, and there is nothing illegal about thinking homosexuality is a sin or wrong or unnatural, and there is nothing illegal or abusive about raising a child to believe that. That isn't what I personally believe, as my philosophy is very live-and-let-live and I imbue that on my kids that it isn't their concern what others do, and that their job is to control their own behavior and their own actions to be the best they can be, among other things. So, this isn't me agreeing with someone who doesn't like homosexuality - I personally don't care who sleeps with whom -- I have known and worked with gay people all my life, and they don't bother me a bit - but I know there are orthodox Jews, Muslims, and Christians who hold beliefs different than mine, and they are free to think that eating shellfish, masturbation, anal and oral sex, eating animals with cloven hooves, or working on Friday, Saturday or Sunday is sinful - it's not up to the teacher to say "oh, no, eating shriimp is fine! Some people eat shrimp! You can't judge shrimp eating as wrong! Same with pork! Anyone who won't eat pork is insensitive to pork-eaters and erasing their identity!" - nope, not the job of a teacher to go against the parents' morality on those issues, including whether homosexuality is wrong or right.

That does not mean schools can't discipline students and say that harassment, bullying or other behavior about any particular quality - hair color, race, sex, gender, orientation - whatever is impermissible. All students have the right to go to school without being bullied or bothered about any quality they possess. That's not what this law addresses, though. Schools always have the right and the obligation to protect gay students or the children of gay parents, or whatever, from inappropriate behavior or comments in school. They can, do and should.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

The answer is that if there is a reasonable suspicion of abuse, then the teacher has a legal obligation to report it to the school and the authorities, and so does anyone else in the school administration or teaching staff that knows about it, and the bill specifically preserves that and says that in that circumstance, the teacher cannot disclose to the parents and must disclose to the authorities.

If a teacher finds out a student is straight, should the school be legally obligated to report that to the parents?

The bill is clearly specifically targeting minority groups. I wouldn't be surprised if it would have been found unconstitutional.

there is nothing illegal about thinking homosexuality is a sin or wrong or unnatural, and there is nothing illegal or abusive about raising a child to believe that.

If a child tells their parents they are gay, and the parents tell them those feelings are unnatural, punish them when they express anything they consider "gay", and try to make them straight...that's abuse.

 

[jonny5]

So, if a child is gay, has parents that are openly hostile towards gay people, and the child expresses that they are gay at school but hides it at home...you think the school is obligated to expose that kid to abuse from their parents at home?

Yes, the school is obligated to inform parents about the mental health of their children. And to inform the police about suspected abuse. It is not the power or duty of the school to hide information from parents about their children or their schooling.

 

[j brown's body]

How is that the real issue and not schools and teachers parenting children and hiding information about their children from parents? Who should decide what children should be taught about sex, their parents or you?

It should be done by committee. A teacher, administrator, counselor, parent and child should meet to write out an "Individual Sex Education Plan" that could be updated each year.

 

[Bodecea]

What does that have to with gay pride flags?

Because it's bible pushers who are the most homophobic while in the closet.

 

[jaeger19]

I'm not "trying to make the bill sound reasonable"I'm reading it, and trying to figure out why anyone else thinks it is "unreasonable," based on the language of the bill. I linked to the bill. Can you quote the part that you think is the worst, most objectionable part of it?

You said - "That you are trying to portray this bills something other than a bill that's intent is to squash any way a teacher can teach their class that parents with two dads exist or that some boys start as boys but feel they need yo be girls exist. And that those people need to be treated with respect." In K-3, there is no need to and it is not appropriate to have a teacher give his or her opinion as to the propriety of two, three, or 12 dads or moms, no moms and dads, and the feelings of being boys or girls or both or neither or whatever. In K-3, the curriculum is letters, reading, writing, arithmetic, rudimentary science, rudimentary history, art, language, PE, recess, lunch, that kind of thing. They aren't learning "gender theory" and they aren't having philosophical discussions.

Regarding "respect" - naturally, the rule in school is that all students are treated with respect or should be, and that nobody should be teased, bullied, or abused in any way, by a teacher, staff or other student, regardless of any quality or issue the student has, or regardless of their family status or lack thereof. Nothing in the bill suggests that a teacher cannot address a disciplinary issue in class.

On the issue of what I seem to think the bill is "about." I can tell you what the bill says. And it says, regarding the teaching topics issue, that school districts may not encourage "classroom discussion" of sexual orientation and gender identity in the K-3 range. That's what it says, and as long as they aren't doing that, then there is no legal violation. But, if they do encourage classroom discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity, then that is a problem and I would very much be opposed to a teacher holding such a classroom discussion among K-3 students. One reason I would oppose it is that these tend not to be "discussions." These are lectures, by which only one view is acceptable and that other views are "hate" and phobia. What if a student in the third grade classroom discussion says "yeah, I was talking about this at home with my parents, and I think I don't accept the gender identity thing, and I think there are two sexes and that is that?" Will that student's view be part of the "discussion?" I am also sure that 1st through 3rd grade teachers are not experts on child psychology or child sexual psychology, and they are not trained or educated in those areas - in Florida, they have a bachelor's degree and at least 30 credits (one year) of elementary education classes. That's it. So, they aren't generally qualified to do this. Their job is to teach reading, writing, rithmetic, art, crafts, PE, language, and that kind of thing.

Well..thats a lot of writing to just say..
" no I don't have any evidence of why this bill is needed"
You could have just said that.

As to discussions in class?
What happens when Jimmy's two dads come to school for " what my parents do for work" day?
You don't think kids ate going to create their own discussions?
What happens when little Tammy asks the teacher..
" Mrs Smith..what is an abomination"
And she says " well dear why do you want to know?"
And Tammy says " my parents say Jimmy's two dads are an abomination"".

You think the teacher should just ignore these issues.. and let the kids have their own discussions..complete with some crying children..as if nothing happened?

Or should the teacher guide the discussion with..
Well class.there are families that have different parents..some with two daddys..daddy's.. sith just one mommy..dome with grandparents.
We need to treat all with respect and kindness.

It's completely ignorant to believe children do not see the world around them and will start discussions with each other..
Which cam lead to bullying or just ignorance..and such can create a disruption in the classroom unless dealt with in a responsible way by the teacher.

You can find no actual evidence for the need for this bill other than your " stated fear" that without it magically teachers will start telling kindergartners that people " put parts of each other into each other"
Come on man..
And you freely admit that there school districts can already fire teachers for inappropriate behavior.

 

[poppopfox]

I tend to agree with you, that mainstreaming as much as possible is a benefit. I will add that the arbitrary categorization of kids in school did not help educate the kids. In my kids' school, they combine grades, so my daughter is in grades 1 through 3. She is technically grade 3, but she has been in the same classroom for now in her third year, first as a first grader, then as a second grader and now as a third grader. The theory behind it is that a first grader who excels in something can spring ahead and work with the second or third graders to achieve more without it being obvious that the person has advanced to another grade level - the socialization element of kids being with their peers of the same age is not disrupted by either holding back or advancing students a grade. The rules in the class are that if a first grader has a question, they are to ask an older student first, and then it proceeds to the teacher. The kids help each other. If a second grader falls behind in an activity or subject, they don't get left back, someone helps them, and they pay more attention to that area. The same is true for special needs kids. They can be mainstreamed unless the issue extreme, and the class deals with it. But, the class is not held back because of a slower student. Those that excel can excel, and those that are slower move slower.

The public school system with its regimentation and rows, and its "leveling" tendency are not good. We had a friend move her daughter from another school to our school because her daughter was good at math and yet the school was making her repeat over and over the 2+2 stuff that others in the public school system were up to. There was no room for this girl who excelled in maths to advance to multiplication and division, because she had to proceed only with the class. That, to me, is a horrible way to educate, as it will effectively crush the all important "love of learnng" that students start out with, but ultimately the public school system crushes that love, and students wind up drooling on their desks and staring at the clock waiting for the bell or buzzer to sound.

The result in our school which had the combined grades in one class, and a built in ability to help the slower students and advance the better students is that our school passes all the required tests to the tune of 90+% compared to the neighboring public schools which are at 65% to 70%. Literallly blows them away. And this is not a private school - it's a charter school which anyone can go to.

Great, cooperative learning has its benefits but I found other teachers, more respectively the older ones, were reluctant to do so unless it was required. We don't have charter schools in this area so I have no experience in that area but thank you for bringing those positive remarks forward.

 

[HangLow]

Please let us know when “radical leftism” was made illegal.
It is telling when the right wing complains about cancel culture when they are are the ones cancelling.

​

 

[HangLow]

In that Public Opinion Research Lab (PORL) at the University of North Florida poll, in Florida, there is “overall opposition to the passage of the [‘Don’t Say Gay’] bill, with 49% opposing and 40% supporting either somewhat or strongly”

New poll: bills to ban abortion after 15 weeks and "Don't Say Gay" are unpopular among Florida voters

Two bills in the Legislature that seem on track to become law are unpopular with Florida voters: a 15-week abortion ban & "Don't Say Gay."

www.wmnf.org

​

 

[HangLow]

​

 

[Maccabee]

So the homosexual high school teenager is upset over a bill which prohibits the discussion of gender issues in public schools for KINDERGARTEN THROUGH THIRD GRADE!!! As if very young children, most who are not even yet aware of any form of sexuality need to be have some of this crap forced on them so soon. Is it not enough to expect to let the young ones just be kids for the little amount of time they can be innocent?

To hell with this high school teenager and his entitled demands; nobody is stopping teachers from talking about all the sick shit this kid likes to talk about to teenagers. He is basically DEMANDING that the children of other people be forced into his worldview without consideration of age appropriatness.

In my day they didn't need to suspend little shits like this teenager. In my day things were handled differently.

You are joking, right? Sarcasm can be difficult to detect online.

 

[HangLow]

I had not seen that Nomad, but it looks like it was withdrawn.

Lawmaker behind Florida 'Don't Say Gay' bill yanks amendment requiring schools to out students

Rep. Joe Harding pitched a "Don't Say Gay" bill amendment that would make schools disclose a child's sexual orientation to parents. Then he withdrew it.

www.tallahassee.com

​

 

[RAMOSS]

View attachment 67380351​

It's GOD's answer to his bill.

 

[snakestretcher]

You said suicide did you not? Death at his own hands. You do know there is a difference between suicide and murder, right? Somebody who bullies may be guilty of a lot of things. Besides being rude and harrassing, they might even commit acts of assault and battery. But the kid killed himself, that is on him, not anyone else.



In regard to suicide, yeah a coward's way out. A selfish narcissistic futile act which did nothing to get even with the bully. The kid only caused pain to his own family. It's very sad, but it wasn't like the kid was jumping from a burning building to stop from burning. The kid planned out his suicide, most likely in a misguided attempt to get attention and pity, which a whole other problem with many people today. People too addicted to social media, and to false ways of seeking approval. Unhealthy ways I contend. Who gives a damn what anyone else thinks of you. Screw them, be your own person is what I tell people. But suicide is very selfish, the evidence of very self centered person.



I could have treated that kid. I would have told him to stop moaping and either ignore them or learn to fight back. Did the kid not have a father figure in the home? Why in the hell was his father allowing a 16 year old brother to abuse him. Or was it really just normal teasing and the kid was too much of a mama's boy? I had a younger brother and my friends and I teased the shit out our younger brothers to toughen them up. But we also looked out for them; nobody else dare lay a hands on them, and then at some point they were included with the older boys. But they had to go through normal initiations, it's just how it is with boys. God help them if they tattled or cried about it. We would tell them to go play with the girls. But they all passed the test, none of them hanged themselves---sheesh!

You're all heart aren't you? You have no idea what drives a child to suicide, and your dismissive 'coward's way out' comment is disgusting, insensitive, presumptive and fundamentally ignorant of how a child's mind works. Let me guess; you're one of those who worships whatever you think an 'alpha male' is. Real tough guy.

 

[Court Jester]

You're all heart aren't you? You have no idea what drives a child to suicide, and your dismissive 'coward's way out' comment is disgusting, insensitive, presumptive and fundamentally ignorant of how a child's mind works.

How a child's mine works???? What do you mean? I raised two kids; I know how their minds work. Like little devils they are if you don't get control of them early on.

Let me guess; you're one of those who worships whatever you think an 'alpha male' is. Real tough guy.

Not sure what that comment is supposed to mean. In nature there are alphas, and there are betas. I didn't make the rules.

 

[snakestretcher]

How a child's mine works???? What do you mean? I raised two kids; I know how their minds work. Like little devils they are if you don't get control of them early on.




Not sure what that comment is supposed to mean. In nature there are alphas, and there are betas. I didn't make the rules.

No, you have no idea of what drives children to end their lives, and I repeat that your comments were ignorant and insensitive. Here's some education for you...

Why Do Young Children Commit Suicide?

A parent's worst nightmare.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[poppopfox]

How a child's mine works???? What do you mean? I raised two kids; I know how their minds work. Like little devils they are if you don't get control of them early on.

Had a goat who raised two kids, doesn't mean she knew how their minds worked, although she did have a good handle on how their appetites worked! Funny, I never noticed the devil in them.