• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Filicide in Phoenix

tres borrachos

HoHoHo
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Messages
102,174
Reaction score
80,807
Location
Biden's 'Murica
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
This mother's family had no history of mental illness yet she lied to police and attempted suicide after murdering her three sons. What does this story mean for sons and the future of the DCF?

Remember what Einstein said:

View attachment 67202752

Family of mother suspected of killing her 3 sons speaks out - TimesDaily: Nation

That's such a horrific story. I first saw it last week.


The victims' grandmother Tanella McCoy described Rogers as a mother who loved her children unconditionally.


"There is nothing she would not do for her boys and for me," she said. "I'm ready for the fight because that's my baby and I love my daughter."


Yeah yeah I get the motherly love. I understand still loving your child in spite of something like this. But for doG's sake don't insult our intelligence. This crazed bitch was not mother of the year. There was something she wouldn't do for her boys, and that was letting them live to see their 9th birthdays.

As I recall too, her 3 boys had 3 different last names. So presumably they are from 3 different fathers. Before anyone's hackles go up, yes, I find that concerning.
 

Celebrity

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2016
Messages
5,257
Reaction score
761
Location
VT, USA
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
That's such a horrific story. I first saw it last week.


The victims' grandmother Tanella McCoy described Rogers as a mother who loved her children unconditionally.


"There is nothing she would not do for her boys and for me," she said. "I'm ready for the fight because that's my baby and I love my daughter."


Yeah yeah I get the motherly love. I understand still loving your child in spite of something like this. But for doG's sake don't insult our intelligence. This crazed bitch was not mother of the year. There was something she wouldn't do for her boys, and that was letting them live to see their 9th birthdays.

As I recall too, her 3 boys had 3 different last names. So presumably they are from 3 different fathers. Before anyone's hackles go up, yes, I find that concerning.

Yeah, I certainly don't think 3 different last names indicates a mental disorder on its own, but it does raise some concerns about the situation of the family and her support.


Infanticide in the US parallels suicide, but some may go unreported so it's likely this is more common than the data reflects. With three children, two of whom are over the five, it's not likely that she killed them because she couldn't care for them or to get revenge on someone. It seems like this was an acute psychotic episode. Had she only killed the two month old, it's possible she would have been charged with manslaughter (this does not seem to be common practice in US jurisprudence).

But three children are dead which indicates a larger problem, that she intended to kill all her children, not just her infant or any single child. Her entire community says she was loving, so it seems like there's nothing that anyone could have done to intervene.

According to a 2007 article in World Psychiatry, the first line of defense for a psychiatrist is:
First they must entertain the possibility of maternal filicide.

Child murder by mothers: patterns and prevention
 

Dragonfly

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
27,293
Reaction score
15,493
Location
East Coast - USA
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
What does this story mean for sons and the future of the DCF?

Uhhh...what?????

What the heck is "the DCF"?

What do you mean by "what does this story mean for sons" ?

Whose sons? What sons? All sons? WHAT???
 

Celebrity

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2016
Messages
5,257
Reaction score
761
Location
VT, USA
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Uhhh...what?????

What the heck is "the DCF"?

What do you mean by "what does this story mean for sons" ?

Whose sons? What sons? All sons? WHAT???

I probably shouldn't lead you to conclusions, so I am just generally asking about the Department of Children and Family Services, as it is called in my state. Generally speaking, how will this affect the AZ Department of Child Safety, or the US Department of Health and Human Services?

Sons are more likely to be murdered than daughters. All three of the victims were male.


This is an earlier article from the same year which gives an idea of how filicide has been approached in recent years (Psychiatry, 2007).
An Overview of Filicide
 

beefheart

Ice Cream for Crow?
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
51,969
Reaction score
47,576
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
This mother's family had no history of mental illness yet she lied to police and attempted suicide after murdering her three sons. What does this story mean for sons and the future of the DCF?

Remember what Einstein said:

View attachment 67202752

Family of mother suspected of killing her 3 sons speaks out - TimesDaily: Nation

I know someone that works with a counselor that saw her sister and the kids a few days before the murder. Serious mental illness..scary.
 

Erod

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,483
Reaction score
8,227
Location
North Texas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
As I recall too, her 3 boys had 3 different last names. So presumably they are from 3 different fathers. Before anyone's hackles go up, yes, I find that concerning.

I think 90 percent of the nation's problems can be summed up by that all-too-common reality.
 

tres borrachos

HoHoHo
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Messages
102,174
Reaction score
80,807
Location
Biden's 'Murica
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
I think 90 percent of the nation's problems can be summed up by that all-too-common reality.

Well it's certainly a problem in this country. And failure to acknowledge it just exacerbates the problem.
 

Winchester

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,665
Reaction score
6,278
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Well it's certainly a problem in this country. And failure to acknowledge it just exacerbates the problem.

It's a problem that I don't know if there is a solution to. I have yet to meet a family where there is a single mother with multiple kids by multiple fathers that wasn't a complete disaster. If one can't have a stable relationship with another person, for god's sake please don't throw children into the mix.
 

mike2810

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
34,186
Reaction score
17,064
Location
arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
One only needs to look at what has happened to the family unit in this country. More single parents. Multiple fathers no longer in the picture. Drug use, etc.

Govt. cannot stop all child abuse/murders. Much like they cannot stop all "lone wolf" killings, or robberies. We need to get back to stronger family units. But I don't see that happening.

( I also live in AZ. Yes child protective services needs to be improved). Yet they can only do what the law allows.
 

Erod

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,483
Reaction score
8,227
Location
North Texas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
It's a problem that I don't know if there is a solution to. I have yet to meet a family where there is a single mother with multiple kids by multiple fathers that wasn't a complete disaster. If one can't have a stable relationship with another person, for god's sake please don't throw children into the mix.


Go to the nicer areas in any city. What's the common theme? It's not money.

It's families that are together. Kids from good families tend to have good families. Kids whose parents went to college tend to go to college and have kids of their own who go to college. Good kids tend to have good parents, and vice versa.

The formula is so simple. Yet rarer by the day, especially when we have politicians who seek to capitalize on and promote poor decisions by their constituents.
 

Winchester

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,665
Reaction score
6,278
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Go to the nicer areas in any city. What's the common theme? It's not money.

It's families that are together. Kids from good families tend to have good families. Kids whose parents went to college tend to go to college and have kids of their own who go to college. Good kids tend to have good parents, and vice versa.

The formula is so simple. Yet rarer by the day, especially when we have politicians who seek to capitalize on and promote poor decisions by their constituents.

The formula is simple, what's not simple is helping people to break out of destructive lifestyles and a lifetime of poor parenting. To me it's one of the reasons the wealth divide is growing in this country, smart educated people from good families marry smart educated people from good families and are successful. My kids (all in their 20s) are totally uninterested in developing a relationship with someone who isn't college educated, smart, comes from an intact family or already has a kid with someone else.
 

Celebrity

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2016
Messages
5,257
Reaction score
761
Location
VT, USA
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The formula is simple, what's not simple is helping people to break out of destructive lifestyles and a lifetime of poor parenting. To me it's one of the reasons the wealth divide is growing in this country, smart educated people from good families marry smart educated people from good families and are successful. My kids (all in their 20s) are totally uninterested in developing a relationship with someone who isn't college educated, smart, comes from an intact family or already has a kid with someone else.

Life is strange.
 

nota bene

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
67,198
Reaction score
38,437
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
And mental illness is tragic.
 

Risky Thicket

Sewer Rat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
32,618
Reaction score
34,648
Location
With Yo Mama
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I probably shouldn't lead you to conclusions, so I am just generally asking about the Department of Children and Family Services, as it is called in my state. Generally speaking, how will this affect the AZ Department of Child Safety, or the US Department of Health and Human Services?

Sons are more likely to be murdered than daughters. All three of the victims were male.


This is an earlier article from the same year which gives an idea of how filicide has been approached in recent years (Psychiatry, 2007).
An Overview of Filicide

Our (Arizona) Department of Child Safety is a longtime festering and deadly mess. There have been 3 directors in the last 5 years. The current director, McKay, appointed by the governor a little over a year ago is reportedly a good man but way over his head. He is a former police detective who investigated child abuse cases. He had little administrative experience prior to his appointment. The man he replaced, Flanagan, was reportedly making progress in reducing 9,000 un-investigated cases of child abuse while also greatly improving data collection and reporting. By all reports Flanagan was making good progress and morale at the agency was improving.

When Governor Ducey (Tea Party) was elected (by a very slim margin with a massive dark money campaign fund) he replaced DCS Director Flanagan, who had only been in the position of director for 8 months and McKay became the new director. Since assuming the position McKay has been criticized for his lack of administrative experience and his inability to provide critical data to document the agency's progress or lack thereof.

The last I read the backlog of un-investigated files has grown to 14,000, the turnover of staff is 32%, there are something like 400 vacancies in the department and the department continues to be underfunded. Legislators have commented that they are reluctant to commit more money when the department has provided little comparative data. The very conservative newspaper, The Arizona Republic, has called for McKay to be replaced. Ducey has refused to replace him.

I mentioned earlier that Governor Ducey is a Teapublican. Arizona is absolutely controlled by Tea Partisans. Business friendly bills whip through legislature and are signed immediately. Tax cuts for business have little opposition in the legislature. Conversely there is a lack of focus and attention and funding on programs and services such as education at all levels, child welfare, child safety. All are woefully ignored and underfunded.

It has been standard operating procedure under Governor Ducey for department directors to be fired and replaced, often by business people who have no concept of government administration. Employees in many departments have been and continue to be fired and replaced by outside contractors or by people in business who are given higher salaries than their predecessors.

You get the picture.
 

Celebrity

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2016
Messages
5,257
Reaction score
761
Location
VT, USA
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Our (Arizona) Department of Child Safety is a longtime festering and deadly mess. There have been 3 directors in the last 5 years. The current director, McKay, appointed by the governor a little over a year ago is reportedly a good man but way over his head. He is a former police detective who investigated child abuse cases. He had little administrative experience prior to his appointment. The man he replaced, Flanagan, was reportedly making progress in reducing 9,000 un-investigated cases of child abuse while also greatly improving data collection and reporting. By all reports Flanagan was making good progress and morale at the agency was improving.

When Governor Ducey (Tea Party) was elected (by a very slim margin with a massive dark money campaign fund) he replaced DCS Director Flanagan, who had only been in the position of director for 8 months and McKay became the new director. Since assuming the position McKay has been criticized for his lack of administrative experience and his inability to provide critical data to document the agency's progress or lack thereof.

The last I read the backlog of un-investigated files has grown to 14,000, the turnover of staff is 32%, there are something like 400 vacancies in the department and the department continues to be underfunded. Legislators have commented that they are reluctant to commit more money when the department has provided little comparative data. The very conservative newspaper, The Arizona Republic, has called for McKay to be replaced. Ducey has refused to replace him.

I mentioned earlier that Governor Ducey is a Teapublican. Arizona is absolutely controlled by Tea Partisans. Business friendly bills whip through legislature and are signed immediately. Tax cuts for business have little opposition in the legislature. Conversely there is a lack of focus and attention and funding on programs and services such as education at all levels, child welfare, child safety. All are woefully ignored and underfunded.

It has been standard operating procedure under Governor Ducey for department directors to be fired and replaced, often by business people who have no concept of government administration. Employees in many departments have been and continue to be fired and replaced by outside contractors or by people in business who are given higher salaries than their predecessors.

You get the picture.

Yeah, bureaucracy is just as good as taking people out of the picture as it is putting people into the picture. You're not free to get anything done when you've got a false hierarchy that conflicts with your God given rights, and sometimes you're not even capable of doing required activities if your boss doesn't like your attitude.
 

Erod

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,483
Reaction score
8,227
Location
North Texas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
The formula is simple, what's not simple is helping people to break out of destructive lifestyles and a lifetime of poor parenting. To me it's one of the reasons the wealth divide is growing in this country, smart educated people from good families marry smart educated people from good families and are successful. My kids (all in their 20s) are totally uninterested in developing a relationship with someone who isn't college educated, smart, comes from an intact family or already has a kid with someone else.

Agree with all of that. The media and our "leaders" won't discuss the real reasons for the wealth divide. They only want to talk about legalizing drugs and bathroom privileges. They steer clear of the hard discussions.

I've told my kids to look really closely at someone's family before you let their heart get too involved. And like you, mine tend to gravitate toward good students (who are also athletic) and have serious aspirations.

"We are all the product of our decisions." I tell them that so much they want to puke. But damned if I don't hear them tell their friends the same when they think I'm not in earshot.
 

Celebrity

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2016
Messages
5,257
Reaction score
761
Location
VT, USA
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Agree with all of that. The media and our "leaders" won't discuss the real reasons for the wealth divide. They only want to talk about legalizing drugs and bathroom privileges. They steer clear of the hard discussions.

I've told my kids to look really closely at someone's family before you let their heart get too involved. And like you, mine tend to gravitate toward good students (who are also athletic) and have serious aspirations.

"We are all the product of our decisions." I tell them that so much they want to puke. But damned if I don't hear them tell their friends the same when they think I'm not in earshot.

Well if you've got some bull****, you might as well sell it as fertilizer.

The question is of how to motivate salesmen is a different story altogether. If you tell someone the same thing enough times before they are disposed toward logic and reason, they might just believe you.
 

beefheart

Ice Cream for Crow?
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
51,969
Reaction score
47,576
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
We don't spend the money to treat mental illness, and then when this happens, we get outraged.

Treat the problem, spend the money, and then you won't have to deal with the fallout when you let these people loose and untreated.
 
Top Bottom