FDNY Drops Physical Fitness Test Requirement to Boost Female Hire Rate

[MMC]

:shock: How can they drop a physical fitness test just to boost female recruitment? Aren't firefighters suppose to be able to carry people to safety, while wearing equipment? That's not to say there isn't a few women that could do so. But I just don't see to many women signing onto this type of work. What say ye?

In a somewhat controversial move, the New York City Fire Department (FDNY) has dropped the physical test requirement for probationary firefighters. The move was done in part to increase the number of female members in FDNY.

From the New York Post:
The Fire Department has stopped requiring probationary firefighters to pass a job-related physical-skills test before getting hired — a move that critics derided as a lowering of standards. The move by first-year Fire Commissioner Daniel Nigro, which allows probies to fail components of the Functional Skills Training test but still graduate from the Fire Academy, comes amid criticism of the department’s low hiring rate of women.

Out of FNDY's 10,500 firefighters, just 44 are women. Only 57 percent of females pass the physical test, compared to 95 percent of males. The physical test involves, among other things, moving a tire six to eight feet and climbing up a ladder wearing an oxygen tank with a small amount of oxygen.....snip~

FDNY Drops Physical Fitness Test Requirement to Boost Female Hire Rate - Christine Rousselle

 

[Gathomas88]

How long before they try to force the military to do the same? :roll:

 

[digsbe]

Because having more women in the NYFD > Public safety. It is a public safety hazard to have ill equipped individuals that cannot perform the basic tasks necessary for important physically demanding jobs such as being a first responder and fire fighter.

 

[MMC]

Because having more women in the NYFD > Public safety. It is a public safety hazard to have ill equipped individuals that cannot perform the basic tasks necessary for important physically demanding jobs such as being a first responder and fire fighter.

Heya Digsbe. :2wave: they do have 44 women out of 10,500 firefighters. But then I wonder how many they have working in other areas. Like dispatchers and working in the office.

One would hope NY would consider those women to be part of the dept too.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

My opinion on this is the same as with the military. Physical requirements should be job specific. The physical fitness requirement for a given job should be the same regardless of gender or age but may vary from job to job. In the Army, for example, there is no reason a dental assistant should have the same physical requirements as an infantryman. But all dental assistants should have to pass the same standard as each other.

The same with fire departments. figure out the standard needed for a firefighter to effectively do the job and make it the standard regardless of gender or age. Physical standard can be lowered a bit as a person goes up in rank as that's physical demands are less at the higher levels.

It remains to be seen if this will be a wise choice or not. We'll have to see how rescue rates are affected.

 

[MMC]

My opinion on this is the same as with the military. Physical requirements should be job specific. The physical fitness requirement for a given job should be the same regardless of gender or age but may vary from job to job. In the Army, for example, there is no reason a dental assistant should have the same physical requirements as an infantryman. But all dental assistants should have to pass the same standard as each other.

The same with fire departments. figure out the standard needed for a firefighter to effectively do the job and make it the standard regardless of gender or age. Physical standard can be lowered a bit as a person goes up in rank as that's physical demands are less at the higher levels.

It remains to be seen if this will be a wise choice or not. We'll have to see how rescue rates are affected.

Heya BrewerBob :2wave: Wise and NY.....is that like Oil and Water?

..... :2razz:

 

[radioman]

How long before they try to force the military to do the same? :roll:

Apacherat will show up any minute now, and tell you they HAVE done the same.

 

[radioman]

:shock: How can they drop a physical fitness test just to boost female recruitment? Aren't firefighters suppose to be able to carry people to safety, while wearing equipment? That's not to say there isn't a few women that could do so. But I just don't see to many women signing onto this type of work. What say ye?

In a somewhat controversial move, the New York City Fire Department (FDNY) has dropped the physical test requirement for probationary firefighters. The move was done in part to increase the number of female members in FDNY.

Well, it appears they're dropping the test for probationary firefighters.
Possibly, the physical test will have to be passed at a later date, before they become regular firefighters.
Gives the recruits time to get in shape?:shrug:
I'm actually kinda impressed that 57% of women can pass the test.

 

[mike2810]

What a crock.

I was a Fire Operation Specialist (forest/range fires/Rx burns) for 30 years. The physical fitness standards were the same for male or female. The reason, who ever got hired need to do the job they were hired to do.

In my opinion the FDNY is dropping the ball. One should define what the job is and the task involved. Then determine the fitness level to do that job./task The requirements should be the same for male or female. What you should look for is can that person do the job/task. IMO, it is not discriminatory towards one gender or another when applied equally.

As far as the thought in giving the prob time to get in shape. The applicant should know ahead of time the standards needed to meet the job. If FDNY want to give the probs a break. It should apply to any applicant and not just for females.

 

[nota bene]

Yes, the physical requirements should be the same. A firefighter who can't climb the wall, carry the ladder, or manage the hose endangers everybody else. And now one of the huge problems fire departments face is poor cardiovascular health, so this is another reason not to lower the standards.

 

[Kal'Stang]

:shrug: It's NY.

Nuff said.

 

[American]

I'm glad I don't live in NY.

 

[APACHERAT]

How long before they try to force the military to do the same? :roll:

They already are trying to do it all in the name of diversity and liberal social engineering.

I'm hoping that by the time I turn 65 years of age I will be able to reenlist and go through Marine Corps recruit training again. Will probably max out on the new PC PFT and graduate as the honor recruit.

If I claim that I'm a drag queen, I'll probably be fast tracked to be the Commandant of the Marine Corps.

 

[Bigfoot 88]

And women's studies and sociology departments rejoiced.

 

[MMC]

They already are trying to do it all in the name of diversity and liberal social engineering.

I'm hoping that by the time I turn 65 years of age I will be able to reenlist and go through Marine Corps recruit training again. Will probably max out on the new PC PFT and graduate as the honor recruit.

If I claim that I'm a drag queen, I'll probably be fast tracked to be the Commandant of the Marine Corps.

:shock:

 

[justlogic]

I find it interesting that no one agrees with the NYFD on this one. It shows just how bad of a decision they made.

 

[cpwill]

My opinion on this is the same as with the military. Physical requirements should be job specific. The physical fitness requirement for a given job should be the same regardless of gender or age but may vary from job to job. In the Army, for example, there is no reason a dental assistant should have the same physical requirements as an infantryman. But all dental assistants should have to pass the same standard as each other.

The same with fire departments. figure out the standard needed for a firefighter to effectively do the job and make it the standard regardless of gender or age. Physical standard can be lowered a bit as a person goes up in rank as that's physical demands are less at the higher levels.

It remains to be seen if this will be a wise choice or not. We'll have to see how rescue rates are affected.

Disparate Impact

 

[OrphanSlug]

:shock: How can they drop a physical fitness test just to boost female recruitment? Aren't firefighters suppose to be able to carry people to safety, while wearing equipment? That's not to say there isn't a few women that could do so. But I just don't see to many women signing onto this type of work. What say ye?

In a somewhat controversial move, the New York City Fire Department (FDNY) has dropped the physical test requirement for probationary firefighters. The move was done in part to increase the number of female members in FDNY.

From the New York Post:
The Fire Department has stopped requiring probationary firefighters to pass a job-related physical-skills test before getting hired — a move that critics derided as a lowering of standards. The move by first-year Fire Commissioner Daniel Nigro, which allows probies to fail components of the Functional Skills Training test but still graduate from the Fire Academy, comes amid criticism of the department’s low hiring rate of women.

Out of FNDY's 10,500 firefighters, just 44 are women. Only 57 percent of females pass the physical test, compared to 95 percent of males. The physical test involves, among other things, moving a tire six to eight feet and climbing up a ladder wearing an oxygen tank with a small amount of oxygen.....snip~

FDNY Drops Physical Fitness Test Requirement to Boost Female Hire Rate - Christine Rousselle

Welcome to lazy liberalism. Doing something to "boost the female hire rate" trumps standards to be a firefighter (thus trumps safety.)

 

[MMC]

Welcome to lazy liberalism. Doing something to "boost the female hire rate" trumps standards to be a firefighter (thus trumps safety.)

Well that's why its called Hollywood OS. :2wave: Wherein women can do all things that a man can do. They just forget the part about all those other men out there, that can't do, what these guys do.

 

[Flamethrower]

:shock: How can they drop a physical fitness test just to boost female recruitment? Aren't firefighters suppose to be able to carry people to safety, while wearing equipment? That's not to say there isn't a few women that could do so. But I just don't see to many women signing onto this type of work. What say ye?

In a somewhat controversial move, the New York City Fire Department (FDNY) has dropped the physical test requirement for probationary firefighters. The move was done in part to increase the number of female members in FDNY.

From the New York Post:
The Fire Department has stopped requiring probationary firefighters to pass a job-related physical-skills test before getting hired — a move that critics derided as a lowering of standards. The move by first-year Fire Commissioner Daniel Nigro, which allows probies to fail components of the Functional Skills Training test but still graduate from the Fire Academy, comes amid criticism of the department’s low hiring rate of women.

Out of FNDY's 10,500 firefighters, just 44 are women. Only 57 percent of females pass the physical test, compared to 95 percent of males. The physical test involves, among other things, moving a tire six to eight feet and climbing up a ladder wearing an oxygen tank with a small amount of oxygen.....snip~

FDNY Drops Physical Fitness Test Requirement to Boost Female Hire Rate - Christine Rousselle

I like the picutre.

Grandma is just going to have to adapt to social justice as the fires nears.

All firefighters should have at least half of their departments filled by overwieght Black females, transgender transexuals or similar creatures.

Public sector workers primary purpose are to be instuments of social change, not to fight fires and rescue people.

 

[Northern Light]

I had the same reaction as everyone else: wtf? But I googled this issue and got some history.

New York’s Firefighting Women | Women's Media Center

One of these applicants, Brenda Berkman, enlisted the help of lawyers Laura Sager and Bob King to bring a class-action lawsuit against the city. They argued that the test was not an accurate indicator of whether or not an applicant could complete the tasks required by the job, and that it furthermore had a disparate impact on women vs. men, rendering the hiring process discriminatory.

As an example they cited one component of the test that involved the applicant lifting a 125-pound bag of sand from the floor, throwing it over the shoulder, and running up and down a flight of stairs with it. None of the women were able to do this to satisfaction. But in actual fire scenes, where rooms are filled with intense heat and smoke, to stand is suicide. Firefighters are trained to crawl in and drag people out, a task that most of the women were able to complete.

In 1982 a federal Judge ruled in favor of the female plaintiffs and ordered that a new test be formulated with input from their lawyers. Though the fire department ignored this, consulting only incumbent male firefighters for the test, 42 women nevertheless passed it and began their careers in the fire department.

These careers, however, were for many years characterized by harassment, undue firings, and negative feedback from coworkers. The female firefighters’ air tanks were bled, depriving them of oxygen. Their boots were filled with urine and excrement. They suffered physical and verbal assaults. They weren’t provided equipment that fit them. Brenda Berkman says that the first decade on the job was “pretty horrible,” but that even the year before she retired in 2006 she still suffered some harassment. Though the women in the FDNY today may not suffer abuse to the degree that they once did, the evidence of how welcome they really are lies in their dwindling numbers.

Seems that the hiring process has not only been discriminatory, the physical testing has been non-sensical. Some of the tasks they get people to perform in the physical testing are not tasks that are relevant to actual firefighting, and it's been suspected that the difficulty of the testing has been designed to keep women out.

A lot of the civil fields like police, fire department, paramedics, etc... have had a "boys club" mentality up until recent decades. It makes sense to me now that they would redesign the physical fitness test or drop it altogether.

In any case, NYC is the first to try this, so we'll see what the results are in a few years. Either the physical tests were correct and relevant and we'll see a drop in success rates, or the numbers will remain unchanged.

 

[Flamethrower]

I had the same reaction as everyone else: wtf? But I googled this issue and got some history.

New York’s Firefighting Women | Women's Media Center



Seems that the hiring process has not only been discriminatory, the physical testing has been non-sensical. Some of the tasks they get people to perform in the physical testing are not tasks that are relevant to actual firefighting, and it's been suspected that the difficulty of the testing has been designed to keep women out.

A lot of the civil fields like police, fire department, paramedics, etc... have had a "boys club" mentality up until recent decades. It makes sense to me now that they would redesign the physical fitness test or drop it altogether.

In any case, NYC is the first to try this, so we'll see what the results are in a few years. Either the physical tests were correct and relevant and we'll see a drop in success rates, or the numbers will remain unchanged.

Women have only 60% the upper body strength of men. That is a biological fact. So if you are a radical feminist passed-out inside a burning building, your effectiveness of being brought out alive goes down about 40% for every female taking the place of a superior male.

 

[Northern Light]

Women have only 60% the upper body strength of men. That is a biological fact. So if you are a radical feminist passed-out inside a burning building, your effectiveness of being brought out alive goes down about 40% for every female taking the place of a superior male.

The biological facts are irrelevant. In the link I posted, women were able to pass the tests if they were based on real firefighting practices, and not faux strength tests that would never actually be implemented in a live event.

This also has nothing to do with feminism. Read the link I posted. I'm assuming you haven't, based on your left-field reply to things I never said.

 

[Flamethrower]

The biological facts are irrelevant. In the link I posted, women were able to pass the tests if they were based on real firefighting practices, and not faux strength tests that would never actually be implemented in a live event.

This also has nothing to do with feminism. Read the link I posted. I'm assuming you haven't, based on your left-field reply to things I never said.

Hardly "faux" tests. Dragging or carrying a heavy person while wearing heavy firesuits in a hot building requires nothing less than brute force. A 125 sack isn't a real world test. The LA fire dept had to weaken its tests because none of the lady wanna-bes could bring a heavy ladder up.

Remain in your fantasyland.

 

[Northern Light]

Hardly "faux" tests. Dragging or carrying a heavy person while wearing heavy firesuits in a hot building requires nothing less than brute force. A 125 sack isn't a real world test. The LA fire dept had to weaken its tests because none of the lady wanna-bes could bring a heavy ladder up.

Remain in your fantasyland.

:doh

Obviously didn't read the link I posted. Not gonna reply to you til you do.