Farage gaffe thread [W:14]

[Infinite Chaos]

I don't know IC, three pages in and we've run out of gaffes!:lol:

Paul

Well... just from this month -

Ukip has insisted Nigel Farage "misspoke" after he appeared to disown the party's policy of banning sex education in primary schools.

--snip--

"I've never advocated that policy," he replied. link.

I won't post any of the historical gaffes he's made, the guy will prove a reliable source for the future.

 

[gunner]

Well... just from this month -



I won't post any of the historical gaffes he's made, the guy will prove a reliable source for the future.

Did you watch this weeks QT? I still maintain, to date, much of what UKIP do is immaterial to what voters think. They just see a 'status quo' not answering their concerns (often legitimate) so, lets give them a bloody nose. On QT when the question was asked if the UK was "overcrowded" even though the OBR said: Immigration has “beneficial” economic effects and cutting the number of foreign workers in the UK will make it harder for the Government to clear its deficit, the Treasury’s own economic forecasters have said. Immigration has a positive impact, says Office for Budget Responsibility head - Telegraph People still feel that it is getting more overcrowded. The economic picture (in a large percentage of voters eyes) is just one part of the narrative. This, I feel, is what the anti-UKIP commentators are missing. Population growth, as has happened over the last 10yrs, has made significant sociological impact because it was too fast, and brought to many, in such a short space of time. Add to the mix, asylum; then picture is muddied further. Voters, sometimes inadvertently, ignore or choose not to differentiate between movement of peoples, just seeing more foreigners arriving making them feel powerless to some extent. Then, because of mainstream politics paralysis, a vacuum is created for an alternative. Enter UKIP!

Lastly, there is nothing more dangerous, intellectually lazy or simply misguided as to call voters of UKIP racist. Which to date, has had next to zero effect on their rise. But of course, we have those in abundance (on this site) with some suggesting the UK is simply full of "lazy people" and the UK is crying out for a migrant workforce. The UK is crying out for coherent and credible training schemes that train our young people, and make it worthwhile to be in work, then may be the gaps will be filled.

Paul

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- Lastly, there is nothing more dangerous, intellectually lazy or simply misguided as to call voters of UKIP racist.

While to some extend I agree (I remember saying UKIP wasn't a racist party 3 years ago to Alexa and showing they have black and Jewish members)

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/114356-britain-isolated-europe-27.html#post1060043566

Those charges haven't gone away and I'm not going to give UKIP a blank card when many prominent members have shown themselves up. There is an element of what UKIP stands for that will continue to attract undesirables and the fact many undesirables rise within the ranks before embarrassing themselves and the party is not good.

This from yesterday -

The UKIP activist picked last week to fight a key Parliamentary seat made homophobic, racist and obscene comments and accused Nigel Farage of corruption, it was revealed last night.In tape-recorded phone calls leaked to The Mail on Sunday, Kerry Smith, chosen to fight Ukip target seat of Basildon South in Essex:

• Mocks ‘f***ing disgusting old pooftahs’ who belong to a Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Questioning group, calling them ‘BLTs’ – bacon, lettuce and tomato.
• Jokes about ‘shooting peasants’ and mocks Ukip activist Lucy Bostick for printing ‘boring c**p’ on her leaflets.
• Refers to a woman with a Chinese name as a ‘Chinky.’
• Makes baseless claims about party leader Farage accepting a bribe to promote a Ukip ally over another rival.
• Calls Ukip’s immigration spokesman Steve Woolf a ‘f***ing carpetbagger and a***hole.’

Link.

-- Which to date, has had next to zero effect on their rise. But of course, we have those in abundance (on this site) with some suggesting the UK is simply full of "lazy people" and the UK is crying out for a migrant workforce. The UK is crying out for coherent and credible training schemes that train our young people, and make it worthwhile to be in work, then may be the gaps will be filled.

Here I diverge from you, these schemes have existed quite a while - the Wolf education report 2-3 years ago took access to many apprenticeships out of the 20+ arena because young people (16 - 20's) just weren't taking them up or proved less credible candidates than older counterparts.
There is a culture problem among the 16-20's now, I've worked with 16-20's since 1995 and notice this myself now. Many less willing to work, many not prepared to go the extra mile to raise their prospects over others. Looking to do the minimum.

Apprenticeships and education needs to have funds attached, these kids need financial incentives to work. Up here, the Gen2 apprenticeship is fought for by candidates - they get a salary (not peanuts) and the competition to get a place is really high. Same with some of the welding & construction apprentices to work at the Barrow submarine construction yards.

Many of the other apprenticeships offer peanuts - older candidates were willing to do them because they could see an end result and job prospects - younger kids just see the money or lack of.

Did you watch this weeks QT? I still maintain, to date, much of what UKIP do is immaterial to what voters think -- snip-- Enter UKIP!

Many, many years ago, working as an aid worker overseas - there was a big discussion about this, that there was an undercurrent "little Englander" mentality and I agree it exists / existed.

What many call "little Englander" is what I call an islander's mentality; we are geographically separated from mainland Europe and simplistically speaking I feel there is a culture and ideological clash between those who see what they think is a bigger picture of the UK as part of Europe, a Europe that needs to compete at global level with China, America and other rising nations. Then there is the other side which sees the UK as a precious land being swamped by immigrants or under threat of European legislation and whose precious resources are being abused by migrant workers.

What I find interesting is that the latter view is found mainly in England - most Scots (maybe because there are only approx 5.3 million in Scotland) have a wider view and seem more willing to join with Europe. UKIP doesn't have much traction in Scotland, or Wales - possibly some in Northern Ireland but I don't see much.

It's not a simple picture but UKIP does not have broad UK appeal - it's figures are distorted by population density in England as compared to the rest of the UK.

 

[ataturk]

What I love to see is how the ****bag left jump up and down shouting ;racist' at Ukip as if thei srevelation is actually going to have any effect on the voting public

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- the ****bag left --

I suspect you're not old enough to remember that the Labour party also has its share of Eurosceptics. UKIP in England is winning support in Labour heartlands and these people are not simply becoming right wing in their politics.

Ever heard of Peter Shore?

 

[gunner]

While to some extend I agree (I remember saying UKIP wasn't a racist party 3 years ago to Alexa and showing they have black and Jewish members)

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/114356-britain-isolated-europe-27.html#post1060043566

Those charges haven't gone away and I'm not going to give UKIP a blank card when many prominent members have shown themselves up. There is an element of what UKIP stands for that will continue to attract undesirables and the fact many undesirables rise within the ranks before embarrassing themselves and the party is not good.

I probably worded my position badly. I don't mean to say they have NO racist, of course they have a few. In saying that, much like the Labour party has some very unsavoury 'left wing' types. All parties have their fringe elements.

Here I diverge from you, these schemes have existed quite a while - the Wolf education report 2-3 years ago took access to many apprenticeships out of the 20+ arena because young people (16 - 20's) just weren't taking them up or proved less credible candidates than older counterparts.
There is a culture problem among the 16-20's now, I've worked with 16-20's since 1995 and notice this myself now. Many less willing to work, many not prepared to go the extra mile to raise their prospects over others. Looking to do the minimum.

Apprenticeships and education needs to have funds attached, these kids need financial incentives to work. Up here, the Gen2 apprenticeship is fought for by candidates - they get a salary (not peanuts) and the competition to get a place is really high. Same with some of the welding & construction apprentices to work at the Barrow submarine construction yards.

Many of the other apprenticeships offer peanuts - older candidates were willing to do them because they could see an end result and job prospects - younger kids just see the money or lack of.

It seems to me the apprenticeship market is mixed. The 'mixed part' comes from the desire of the last governments push to get X-amount of young people going to university. What apprenticeships we had had were seen as 'less than' important in terms of the government flagship policy of education. Without doing the research, I'm confident we had/have many 20 something's walking around with a degree, but doing some mundane labour task. So, without the media drive for apprenticeships being given priority (I'm not familiar with present figures) I'm not sure how this will change. My employer has extended the age category to include 'mature students' because they simply cannot get the numbers (mainly for what I say above). I know this from talking to them (I'm an apprentice liaison rep). On the plus side, many have came in after A levels, whilst having their head turned away from the University path. What wasn't that surprising is the common theme that schools are ALL for their pupils going to university, and some say they felt teachers "lost interest in them" once they declined that route.

Many, many years ago, working as an aid worker overseas - there was a big discussion about this, that there was an undercurrent "little Englander" mentality and I agree it exists / existed.

What many call "little Englander" is what I call an islander's mentality; we are geographically separated from mainland Europe and simplistically speaking I feel there is a culture and ideological clash between those who see what they think is a bigger picture of the UK as part of Europe, a Europe that needs to compete at global level with China, America and other rising nations. Then there is the other side which sees the UK as a precious land being swamped by immigrants or under threat of European legislation and whose precious resources are being abused by migrant workers.

What I find interesting is that the latter view is found mainly in England - most Scots (maybe because there are only approx 5.3 million in Scotland) have a wider view and seem more willing to join with Europe. UKIP doesn't have much traction in Scotland, or Wales - possibly some in Northern Ireland but I don't see much.

 

[gunner]

Part 2.

It's not a simple picture but UKIP does not have broad UK appeal - it's figures are distorted by population density in England as compared to the rest of the UK.

My reflections are: I think the Scottish, Welsh and to a lesser extent NI--have a strong anchor in their own identity. The English have been apologising for theirs for too long. With multicultural policy, and a weakening of English identity large swathes of working class people have felt under valued and neglected. Blairs attempt at 'abundance for all' although brave, has left (in times of austerity) a disparate peoples. With this comes lots and lots of finger pointing, blame game type politics. When you eventually separate the woods for the trees, you do in-fact see problems. There is undoubtedly problems with our immigration policy. Interestingly, the UKIP points based policy is not a million miles away from the other parties policy of limiting who could come from outside the EU. Of course, the trump card for UKIP, is the unanswerable charge that we can do nothing about free movement of peoples from within the EU. That point alone resonates with so many voters, so when Farage says: "X million EU migrants are allowed to come to the UK" and we can do nothing to stop them; he is 100% correct. Now, the fact that--that amount will most definitely NOT come, becomes irrelevant because he has planted the seed. The seed that we are in-fact powerless to stop EU migration manifests itself in someone's mental state (look to Folk Psychology Folk psychology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) as something only individuals can explain.

To carry on this 'folk psychology' before I moved quite recently I lived on a mixed housing estate. The social housing equated to around 40% of the stock, to get one of these prized assets was an application process of jumping through many, many hoops. We had a family from Poland move into the estate, who were absolutely for getting involved and being part of the community. They joined the resident association, came to community bingo nights etc. That said, it did not stop people saying "how did they get a house when we've been on the register for x number of years". Now you can argue, they must have deserved it (according to the points and bid system that is in place). That matters NOT one iota, to those people on the estate. Again it is very easy to take the discussion to one of economic policy, house building etc. It does not matter one iota to those people on the estate. That is the appeal of UKIP!

Paul

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- It seems to me the apprenticeship market is mixed. The 'mixed part' comes from the desire of the last governments push to get X-amount of young people going to university. What apprenticeships we had had were seen as 'less than' important in terms of the government flagship policy of education. Without doing the research, I'm confident we had/have many 20 something's walking around with a degree, but doing some mundane labour task. So, without the media drive for apprenticeships being given priority (I'm not familiar with present figures) I'm not sure how this will change. My employer has extended the age category to include 'mature students' because they simply cannot get the numbers (mainly for what I say above). I know this from talking to them (I'm an apprentice liaison rep). On the plus side, many have came in after A levels, whilst having their head turned away from the University path. What wasn't that surprising is the common theme that schools are ALL for their pupils going to university, and some say they felt teachers "lost interest in them" once they declined that route.

I agree on that push into University - the huge expansion of education for everyone to go to university.

I also have found students who said their teachers weren't interested once they stated they wanted to follow non-university paths but I also find many students who are misinformed and think they are too poor for University.

The status of apprenticeships and other pathways should be raised or made equal to University pathways - however the Universities will resist this (having friends in Parliament helps) and the lecturers won't want to see their salary dropped or lowered to be made equal to Further Education lecturers like myself or apprenticeship mentors.

There are too many bad courses and degrees that lead nowhere; we need technical skills routes which offer a good rate of pay but we are heading off the Farage gaffes and into another thread pathway here.

I'll take this to a different thread.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Broader gaffe - I'll keep an eye out for Labour and others too now.

A Conservative candidate at the general election has been suspended over allegations he schemed with the English Defence League to win votes.
The Mail on Sunday reported Afzal Amin plotted to persuade the EDL to announce a march against a new "mega-mosque" in the marginal seat of Dudley North.
The paper said Mr Amin planned for the march to be scrapped so he could take credit for defusing the situation. Link.

 

[PeteEU]

Broader gaffe - I'll keep an eye out for Labour and others too now.

Yea they have a few gaffes too.. but UKIP seems to have one at least a week if not more often lol.

 

[William Rea]

I suspect you're not old enough to remember that the Labour party also has its share of Eurosceptics. UKIP in England is winning support in Labour heartlands and these people are not simply becoming right wing in their politics.

Ever heard of Peter Shore?

I'm old enough to remember being in Labour Party Social Clubs and hearing the most outrageous racism, not bubbling under the surface but, being openly spoken and, you know what? I hear exactly the same kind of comments from Ukipper rank and file. It's just that some are not stupid enough to say what they really think like this woman...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkYyWSdP1cI