LOL...you can't even give me one scripture to back up your point so i won't be losing any sleep over it...
I have not seen you actually quote scripture yourself. How about doing that, and discussing it, in your own words.
No...not with you...aren't you in the wrong forum?
I've heard various ways of saying it but, the most predominant thing I have heard said is that, 'the only unforgivable sin is to not have faith'. I don't hear the works thing much except in the context of 'being in the spirit' would show itself by righteous acts.Sez your interpretation. Mine is different: a righteous life is what counts. God couldn’t care less about what we believe. (He is not a super narcissist like our prez.) Do good. Avoid evil. You got it made in the shade.
I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.
Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.
Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.
What you have outlined is a beautiful vision of His love and mercy. What I don’t get is the notion that a moral upright non-believer, one who has never heard of or who rejects Jesus in good conscience , is somehow not saved. I remember Jimmy Swaggert saying that all Mother Teresa’s good works did not bring her one step closer to heaven. Jimmy had his own issues as we know, but that is the sentiment I presume Luther’s break with Rome led to in some quarters.
Or am I missing the point?
Sez your interpretation. Mine is different: a righteous life is what counts. God couldn’t care less about what we believe. (He is not a super narcissist like our prez.) Do good. Avoid evil. You got it made in the shade.
I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.
Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.
Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.
Well, think about it...what was the motive or lack thereof from Adam and Eve's sinning? Was it not a lack of faith in God and His all powerful wisdom to know that was best for them? Is that not why Eve ate of the fruit and Adam followed? With God, faith is everything...if we lack faith in Him, we have nothing...and rightfully so...
James 2:
[17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
[18] But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
[23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
Faith demonstrated by works.
Nickyjo,Sez your interpretation. Mine is different: a righteous life is what counts. God couldn’t care less about what we believe. (He is not a super narcissist like our prez.) Do good. Avoid evil. You got it made in the shade.
Nickyjo,
I pray that you will rethink your position on this after carefully reading through the books of Romans and Galatians. I would specifically point you to Romans 3:1 - 3:31 and Galatians 2:14 - 3:29.
In short, the Bible specifically says the opposite of what you are saying. The Bible says that we are saved by faith and faith alone. So how do you acquire that faith? Romans 10:17 answers that question. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this after carefully and prayerfully reading through my suggested verses, and hopefully also reading through the whole books as well. I hope you find the truth...
God's blessings,
gfm7175
I don't think one can assume that everyone present at that sermon "had faith in [Jesus], etc." if that's what you're saying... If you're saying that the people of whom Jesus was talking about in those verses had faith in him, then I'm not sure where you are getting that information from. Those verses said that there will be people who do good works, and link God's name to those works, but yet those people won't actually "know" him... they won't have true faith in him and what he did for them. Instead, they will keep sinning and never truly repent for their sins (doers of iniquity), so Jesus will cast them out, even though they, during their lifetimes, linked his name to the good works that they were doing.Jesus is talking to people who have faith in him, have called out to him, and have been actively prophesying, casting out demons, and doing miracles in his name when he tells them: "I never knew you; away from me you workers of iniquity".
Works is a sign of faith. Nothing more. Christ preach several messages about works and no faith.
Without faith salavation is not possible.
As for baptism what is baptism? It is identifying with the death burial and resurrection of Christ. It is an outward sign that you have accepted Christ as your savior. Baptism alone cannot save you.
The selling of indulgences was corrupt and Luther was right. There is only one person that can forgive sin.
That is Christ. Why? He already paid the price for sin. The debt of sin has been paid so why buy something that has already been paid for?
The way we Catholics squared that circle was thru the notion often called “already but not yet.” Jesus saved us, but not everyone who called him Lord gets to heaven. He who does the will of the father, etc. One assumes that those at the last judgement whom Jesus excluded believed, but neglected the poor, those in prison, etc. Bottom line: Jesus did it all but still requires you to meet him halfway. The Catholic Church, through the notion of purgatory, maintained that one still had dues to pay based on Jesus’ words, and indulgences helped with that. Naturally, since they ran the world, things got corrupt.
If you're saying that the people of whom Jesus was talking about in those verses had faith in him, then I'm not sure where you are getting that information from.
gfm7175 said:Those verses said that there will be people who do good works, and link God's name to those works, but yet those people won't actually "know" him
Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 said:When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Well.....you're contradicting the Guy whom you claimed to have gotten it right: Jesus.
According to Jesus.....you have to believe in Him - that He's who He says He is - for you to be saved.
Furthermore, He also stipulated what Commandment is the most important of all.
To believe in Him is to believe in what He says.
If your aim is not salvation/eternal life......why bother going through the motion of being a Christian?
However, if your goal is eternal life, you've got to follow the stipulated QUALIFIER (which is, to believe in Him) - otherwise, you're disqualified!
The life you're living now, is the one and only chance you'll ever get to "play by the books."
This life isn't a trial run.
Your belief is the number one thing that counts the most.
It's your life you're gambling with. Free will. Your choice.
He's the boss, he gets to make the rules. Your approval is irrelevant.
If Christ is the final sacrifice for sin, and Christ paid the debt of sin then what left is there to pay?
A simple example. You are eating lunch and I come up out of no where and go I will pay her bill.
I pay your bill and you don't know. You go to check out and the person says your bill is paid.
A gentleman came in and paid it.
Yet you insist on paying it. The owner says sorry there is nothing to pay it has already been covered.
That is what is screwed up with indulgences. They were trying to pay for something that had been paid for already.
There is no half way. It is all the way or no way.
You are either saved through faith or you are not.
I prefer the parts of scripture that put greater emphasis on what one does, not what one believes.
Sorry. Doesn’t cut it. Someone doesn’t believe, lives a life of doing good, is saved.
Baptism of desire. Someone believes but cheats his neighbor, can be forgiven, but waits in line behind the righteous man. Jesus is not an egomaniac.
https://www.gotquestions.org/know-God-will.htmlIt is important to know God’s will. Jesus said that His true relations are those who know and do the Father’s will: “Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother” (Mark 3:35). In the parable of the two sons, Jesus rebukes the chief priests and elders for failing to do the will of the Father; specifically, they “did not repent and believe” (Matthew 21:32).
At its most basic, the will of God is to repent of our sin and trust in Christ. If we have not taken that first step, then we have not yet accepted God’s will.
Which part of the Scriptures do you base that?
Billy Graham said:And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.
CS Lewis said:"We do know that no person can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved by Him."
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