Ex-General: Nuclear Launch Order Can be Refused

[CletusWilbury]

Reading this thread I have a few thoughts to share.

Regarding illegal orders, in the movie Paths of Glory when the General orders artillery to switch to firing on their own troops. The artillery commander refused unless it was in writing. The General covered up the event afterwards.

Tangmo makes the excellent point that if one is going to use the illegal order claim, they better be sure they are correct.
That brings to mind The Cain Mutiny, where some officers relieve Captain Queeg, but lose in court even though the Capt is clearly disturbed.

As to the generals undermining Trump's bluff, wasn't this testimony before Congress? In response to a specific question? (yes)
Do you (whoever) suggest they lie?

 

[Tangmo]

Calley (sp?) tried to make the case that he murdered innocent civilians at Mai Lai because he could not refuse an order. The court disagreed. Not only he could, but he should.

Yes, and here is what we are talking about....


My Lai Vietnam March 16, 1968

The vague and imprecise order to "Kill the enemy," became the order to "Kill everything that moves," in the village of My Lai in 1968. More than 500 villagers were massacred.

There was one guy however who refused to get with the program of the day....


On the morning of March 16, 1968, Chief Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson was flying reconnaissance over “Pinkville,” where intelligence said Viet Cong were hiding. While he drew no fire to indicate that the enemy was present, each pass made Thompson more aware that something was terribly wrong on the ground.

Today Pinkville’s Vietnamese name, My Lai, is synonymous with tragedy and American shame. When Thompson realized that U.S. soldiers were slaughtering civilians that day, he blocked them with his helicopter, had his crew train machine guns on the American troops, and rescued a group of villagers hiding in a bunker. He landed again when he saw motion in a drainage ditch full of bodies, and crew chief Glenn Andreotta waded in to rescue a young boy who was unhurt but covered with the blood of others. Thompson then reported the My Lai massacre to his Army officers, leading to a cease-fire order. An elaborate cover-up ensued.

https://www.americanswhotellthetruth.org/portraits/hugh-thompson-jr


This is some discussion of it...

Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson willingly disobeyed a commander’s orders and even threatened to open fire on American troops when he saved the lives of at least 10 Vietnamese civilians during the My Lai Massacre.

Not only was Thompson never punished for disobeying orders, but he was later awarded the Soldier’s Medal for his courageous actions. If the orders given that day had been lawful he could have faced court martial or even charges of treason under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The My Lai Massacre was not the first or the last time a military force would be misused or corrupted. This type of power abuse is what the UCMJ and Officer Oath were designed to prevent and also what allowed Thompson to do the right thing without punishment. Despite disobeying orders and even threatening to open fire on American troops, Thompson’s actions prevented further war crimes and defended the lives of noncombatants in Vietnam. This is the purpose behind the Officer Oath allowing for the disobedience to unlawful orders.

The officer’s oath acts as another safeguard against power corruption by not swearing obedience to the president or other officials, but rather to the Constitution. As a result of these two, our military is capable of having people like Thompson, who can correct situations where the military is being misused without fear of punishment for their actions.

The obligation and responsibility to act against unlawful orders is not exclusive to officers. Article 90 of the UCMJ states that service members are only obligated to obey lawful orders. This gives authority to small unit leaders and even riflemen to use their judgment to serve honorably and disobey orders when they do not uphold the moral standards of our service. Not only does this act as a safeguard to corruption and abuse of power, but it also develops a sense of responsibility and leadership at all levels of command.

The difference between Oath of Office, Oath of Enlistment > Marine Corps Base Quantico > News Article Display


There are two parts to getting an illegal order: 1) reject it and if necessary disobey it; 2) report it immediately. As I'd noted, General Hyten as commander of the nuclear arsenal could report an illegal order from Potus to any number of officials of the government in addition to reporting to Potus that his order is illegal.

 

[Tangmo]

It's downright stupid to let the "enemy" know your game plan ahead of time, which Obama did numerous times. In the old days armies used to stand in a line out in the open and just start shooting at each other. When the colonists did that against the Indians the Indians were amazed at how stupid the colonists were. The colonists quickly learned that if they were going to fight the Indians and expect to win they couldn't just stand in a line out in the open any more. Many victories are won by the element of surprise. When you tell your enemy ahead of time that you aren't going to be the first one to use nukes then you have given your enemy the advantage. Hell, even Kennedy and Reagan kept the first nuke strike option open.

Kim has said forever he needs nuclear weapons to defend against the U.S. attacking him. It's gravy to Kim that having deliverable nuclear weapons means he can threaten USA territory itself, i.e., the homeland.

Kim's whole point is that he needs nuclear weapons to protect against or to counter USA attacking him, i.e., North Korea.

Trump thundering on about "fire and fury" is throwing a lambchop into the the open mouth of a wolf wearing a fat Kim suit. The generals are to the contrary trying to communicate no first use by the U.S. on the Korean peninsula. The generals must of course communicate that to Trump first -- and foremost.

Then comes stopping the mad talk about surgical strikes and the like. The extent of the cancer of Kim & Co. throughout NK means surgery would need to remove almost everything internal rather than only a few malignancies of it. Then NK has artillery massed against any surgery -- the artillery are well hidden in caves, dug into shelters and spread widely. It would take U.S. forces weeks to get the most of it.

It's hard to figure who the South Koreans are more fearful of, Kim or Trump. Same in Japan. Taiwan is getting love letters from both Trump and now Xi which means the military modernization by Taipei has only been accelerated. The Boyz in Beijing can't even think about war on the peninsula. It's a disaster to 'em and the region to include the larger region CCP are trying to get to join 'em as the world's newest wave of the future gang of crackpots and natural born losers.

Anyone who thinks Trump has a plan here is nutso too.

 

[Moderate Right]

Kim has said forever he needs nuclear weapons to defend against the U.S. attacking him. It's gravy to Kim that having deliverable nuclear weapons means he can threaten USA territory itself, i.e., the homeland.

Kim's whole point is that he needs nuclear weapons to protect against or to counter USA attacking him, i.e., North Korea.

Trump thundering on about "fire and fury" is throwing a lambchop into the the open mouth of a wolf wearing a fat Kim suit. The generals are to the contrary trying to communicate no first use by the U.S. on the Korean peninsula. The generals must of course communicate that to Trump first -- and foremost.

Then comes stopping the mad talk about surgical strikes and the like. The extent of the cancer of Kim & Co. throughout NK means surgery would need to remove almost everything internal rather than only a few malignancies of it. Then NK has artillery massed against any surgery -- the artillery are well hidden in caves, dug into shelters and spread widely. It would take U.S. forces weeks to get the most of it.

It's hard to figure who the South Koreans are more fearful of, Kim or Trump. Same in Japan. Taiwan is getting love letters from both Trump and now Xi which means the military modernization by Taipei has only been accelerated. The Boyz in Beijing can't even think about war on the peninsula. It's a disaster to 'em and the region to include the larger region CCP are trying to get to join 'em as the world's newest wave of the future gang of crackpots and natural born losers.

Anyone who thinks Trump has a plan here is nutso too.

Yes comrad Tangmo. I understand that. We should totally believe everything rocketman says. He has no intention of invading South Korea. He has no intention of blackmailing the world. He has no intention of selling nuclear bombs and technology to terrorists. He has no intention of using a nuclear warhead as an EMP. He only wants nuclear weapons to counter our coming invasion. How naive can you be?

 

[Tangmo]

Yes comrad Tangmo. I understand that. We should totally believe everything rocketman says. He has no intention of invading South Korea. He has no intention of blackmailing the world. He has no intention of selling nuclear bombs and technology to terrorists. He has no intention of using a nuclear warhead as an EMP. He only wants nuclear weapons to counter our coming invasion. How naive can you be?

The far right mind over there is busy as always creating fools for opponents. The word "naive" is a favorite one on the extreme right. However, the postings are instead an inadvertent expose' youse don't know your own political or strategic opponent or adversary at home. Rather, your domestic political opponent is the one you create in your own alleged mind. So the effort to brand me as an extension of Pyongyang fails and it falls on its tortured face -- miserably.

Despite the ever increasing differences between Xi Jinping and Kim Jong Un the two share the same purpose vis-a-vis the United States. Their number one purpose and goal is to separate the allies of the U.S. from the United States. Then pick 'em off one by one, country by country, throughout the region, from Japan to Australia to India. We know Taiwan is the Gold Medal for the Boyz in Beijing. The ten nations that share the South China Sea and the Sea itself are a gold mine to secure for the Boyz. As with the SCSeabed, Australia and its wealth of natural resources is already wilting under Beijing's campaign to subdue it by economic means.

CCP Dictators btw hate Japan even more than they hate the upstart of China's long history, the United States and its Constitution. Thingy is, Japan would rather fight than switch -- likewise for South Korea and of course the USA. (Don't put it past Taiwan buying or snaking a bomb from Israel or India, possibly France which wanted to nuke Vietnam in 1954 using a U.S. bomb denied to it.)

NK terrorists setting of a dirty bomb in the center of Seoul is foreseeable. Include Tokyo or any of the cities of Japan and SK. Exploding one in Bangkok the U.S. formal treaty ally and where a million tourists play at any given time would be a blast heard round the world. USA cities would not be exempted either of course and naturally. The nuclear Kim is a radically different reality from the ayatollahs in Tehran or the inherently treacherous elites of Pakistan and their like throughout South Asia/ME/North Africa (to include now sub-Saharan Africa).

Trump's China advisers in the WH are in contrast China savvy guys despite their militancy. Trump's CCP advisers were identified and brought in by Jared Kushner whose monkey at a keyboard explorations panned out for a change early in 2016. Trump's China advisers both formal in the WH and informal at the think tanks are of the mind that had been shut out of power in Washington since Nixon-Kissinger. Guys like Peter Navarone of Harvard and UC, Michael Pillsbury the national security guy with long time ties to PLA, John 'nuke em now' Bolton among others, want diplomatic recognition of Taiwan and they want Xi to remove Kim from the picture. They've stopped Beijing's island building in the South China Sea and have silenced Kim about dropping missiles off the U.S. territory of Guam. They've transformed the Frenchman at heart SK Prez. Kim from a surrender monkey into a swooping hawk who suddenly has cash bucks for nuclear subs for Seoul (nine of 'em he surprise wants).

The issue condenses to how the U.S. reassures and solidifies its allies -- from Japan, SK, Taiwan, Australia, SE Asia/SCS to India. Trump the moron thinks he's the first Potus to declare NK a terrorist state when GW removed Pyongyang from the list during the since (very) deceased Six-Party Talks. Trump's CCP advisers know what they want even if Trump does not know, which is to put the onus for NK where it belongs, i.e., the Boyz in Beijing. The more U.S. allies fear Kim & Co. the more they know they need to fear Beijing.

 

[Moderate Right]

The far right mind over there is busy as always creating fools for opponents. The word "naive" is a favorite one on the extreme right. However, the postings are instead an inadvertent expose' youse don't know your own political or strategic opponent or adversary at home. Rather, your domestic political opponent is the one you create in your own alleged mind. So the effort to brand me as an extension of Pyongyang fails and it falls on its tortured face -- miserably.

Despite the ever increasing differences between Xi Jinping and Kim Jong Un the two share the same purpose vis-a-vis the United States. Their number one purpose and goal is to separate the allies of the U.S. from the United States. Then pick 'em off one by one, country by country, throughout the region, from Japan to Australia to India. We know Taiwan is the Gold Medal for the Boyz in Beijing. The ten nations that share the South China Sea and the Sea itself are a gold mine to secure for the Boyz. As with the SCSeabed, Australia and its wealth of natural resources is already wilting under Beijing's campaign to subdue it by economic means.

CCP Dictators btw hate Japan even more than they hate the upstart of China's long history, the United States and its Constitution. Thingy is, Japan would rather fight than switch -- likewise for South Korea and of course the USA. (Don't put it past Taiwan buying or snaking a bomb from Israel or India, possibly France which wanted to nuke Vietnam in 1954 using a U.S. bomb denied to it.)

NK terrorists setting of a dirty bomb in the center of Seoul is foreseeable. Include Tokyo or any of the cities of Japan and SK. Exploding one in Bangkok the U.S. formal treaty ally and where a million tourists play at any given time would be a blast heard round the world. USA cities would not be exempted either of course and naturally. The nuclear Kim is a radically different reality from the ayatollahs in Tehran or the inherently treacherous elites of Pakistan and their like throughout South Asia/ME/North Africa (to include now sub-Saharan Africa).

Trump's China advisers in the WH are in contrast China savvy guys despite their militancy. Trump's CCP advisers were identified and brought in by Jared Kushner whose monkey at a keyboard explorations panned out for a change early in 2016. Trump's China advisers both formal in the WH and informal at the think tanks are of the mind that had been shut out of power in Washington since Nixon-Kissinger. Guys like Peter Navarone of Harvard and UC, Michael Pillsbury the national security guy with long time ties to PLA, John 'nuke em now' Bolton among others, want diplomatic recognition of Taiwan and they want Xi to remove Kim from the picture. They've stopped Beijing's island building in the South China Sea and have silenced Kim about dropping missiles off the U.S. territory of Guam. They've transformed the Frenchman at heart SK Prez. Kim from a surrender monkey into a swooping hawk who suddenly has cash bucks for nuclear subs for Seoul (nine of 'em he surprise wants).

The issue condenses to how the U.S. reassures and solidifies its allies -- from Japan, SK, Taiwan, Australia, SE Asia/SCS to India. Trump the moron thinks he's the first Potus to declare NK a terrorist state when GW removed Pyongyang from the list during the since (very) deceased Six-Party Talks. Trump's CCP advisers know what they want even if Trump does not know, which is to put the onus for NK where it belongs, i.e., the Boyz in Beijing. The more U.S. allies fear Kim & Co. the more they know they need to fear Beijing.

Yes comrad Tangmo. We should just believe and accept everything rocketman says. I'm glad you weren't around at the time of Hitler. Then you would really know what fascism, racism, bigotry, and all of that other stuff is because the US would be part of the Hitler global empire. Hitler wasn't too far off from beating us to the nuclear bomb. What do you think the world would be like today if Hitler had indeed invented the bomb first? Do you see any similarities to rocketman? Of course you don't. Rocketman just wants nuclear bombs as a deterrant to US aggression, even though it was North Korea who invaded South Korea.

 

[DaveFagan]

Yes comrad Tangmo. I understand that. We should totally believe everything rocketman says. He has no intention of invading South Korea. He has no intention of blackmailing the world. He has no intention of selling nuclear bombs and technology to terrorists. He has no intention of using a nuclear warhead as an EMP. He only wants nuclear weapons to counter our coming invasion. How naive can you be?

I thinki you should re-read your post as an acknowledgement of reality instead of sarcasm.
/

 

[Fledermaus]

I thinki you should re-read your post as an acknowledgement of reality instead of sarcasm.
/

What reality do you imagine he should acknowledge?

 

[Moderate Right]

I thinki you should re-read your post as an acknowledgement of reality instead of sarcasm.
/

So that's why the entire UN (including both Russia and China) are for denuclearizing NK and implementing world wide sanctions? Why is the world not afraid of the big US invasion of NK?

 

[DaveFagan]

So that's why the entire UN (including both Russia and China) are for denuclearizing NK and implementing world wide sanctions? Why is the world not afraid of the big US invasion of NK?

Trump has threatened NK and vice versa. The USA has invaded NK in the past. The USA surrounds NK and presents a continuous threat. Kim is the same type of nutball as Trump. We sell more weapons than any Nation in the World. Look at Yemen and guess where the bombs come from. The World is afraid of a big US invasion of UK because they think Trump is a loose cannon.

/
/

 

[Moderate Right]

Trump has threatened NK and vice versa. The USA has invaded NK in the past. The USA surrounds NK and presents a continuous threat. Kim is the same type of nutball as Trump. We sell more weapons than any Nation in the World. Look at Yemen and guess where the bombs come from. The World is afraid of a big US invasion of UK because they think Trump is a loose cannon.

/
/

Your history is really rusty. The US has dealt with North Korea long before Trump became president. Even Obama said that North Korea would be Trump's biggest international problem. Please show where the US has ever invaded North Korea. It is North Korea who invaded South Korea. Your geography is also lacking. Please provide a map that shows the US surrounds North Korea. Many of the weapons in Yemen come from Iran. The world is afraid of NK, that's why the UN has voted unanimously (including both Russia and China) to denuclearize NK and sanction them. Hell, Guam and Japan are behind Trump.

 

[Tangmo]

Yes comrad Tangmo. We should just believe and accept everything rocketman says. I'm glad you weren't around at the time of Hitler. Then you would really know what fascism, racism, bigotry, and all of that other stuff is because the US would be part of the Hitler global empire. Hitler wasn't too far off from beating us to the nuclear bomb. What do you think the world would be like today if Hitler had indeed invented the bomb first? Do you see any similarities to rocketman? Of course you don't. Rocketman just wants nuclear bombs as a deterrant to US aggression, even though it was North Korea who invaded South Korea.

The post is OTT.

You are completely wrongheaded about my posts in scrolling. You need to read my post #103 and #105.

Unlike the generals in Pyongyang, the generals in the USA can take significant Constitutional action to check Trump which is what the senior commanders of the U.S. nuclear arsenal are working to do. And unlike the generals in Pyongyang the U.S. generals in the highest positions of command recognize the Trump problem so they are working Constitutionally to mediate it. Publicly besides. News reports have surfaced now the national security adviser LTG H.R. McMaster of the Army said in July Trump is an "idiot" and a "dope" who has "the brain of a kindergartner."

The bottom line is that nobody here supports Kim or Hitler while few here support Trump. One or two here make reckless and wildly accusatory statements.

My focus on NK is on Kim and Xi Jinping working this century to try to separate U.S. allies and strategic partners of the region from the United States. Kim believes going nuclear is the way for him to do it. Xi disagrees that a nuclear Kim is it. A major reason Xi disapproves is that Xi knows the governments and the elites throughout the region from Japan to Australia to India will see nuclear blackmail against 'em by both Pyongyang and Beijing. The elites of the region look at NK and China versus the U.S. and SK -- plus U.S. allies and partners. It's no contest in favor of USA. Yet the regional elites know the people who can impact Trump have to get matters stable and that negotiations are the only way.

The peoples from Japan through the South China Sea countries to India know China and its imposing arrogance from thousands of years of it and they've never liked it. Now that so many of 'em are prosperous and democratic they want China stopped from its eternal bullying and from China's expectation it can get its way every time and always by being overly assertive, demanding, insistent and punishing. They look to the new kid on the block the United States to help 'em. It's a common ground we have with these peoples and nations no matter who Potus might be. They know for better or worse along the way the Americans do the right thing sooner or later. The elites of the region are patient and used to later in all things to the point of being laggards, which works to our benefit also.

 

[Moderate Right]

The post is OTT.

You are completely wrongheaded about my posts in scrolling. You need to read my post #103 and #105.

Unlike the generals in Pyongyang, the generals in the USA can take significant Constitutional action to check Trump which is what the senior commanders of the U.S. nuclear arsenal are working to do. And unlike the generals in Pyongyang the U.S. generals in the highest positions of command recognize the Trump problem so they are working Constitutionally to mediate it. Publicly besides. News reports have surfaced now the national security adviser LTG H.R. McMaster of the Army said in July Trump is an "idiot" and a "dope" who has "the brain of a kindergartner."

The bottom line is that nobody here supports Kim or Hitler while few here support Trump. One or two here make reckless and wildly accusatory statements.

My focus on NK is on Kim and Xi Jinping working this century to try to separate U.S. allies and strategic partners of the region from the United States. Kim believes going nuclear is the way for him to do it. Xi disagrees that a nuclear Kim is it. A major reason Xi disapproves is that Xi knows the governments and the elites throughout the region from Japan to Australia to India will see nuclear blackmail against 'em by both Pyongyang and Beijing. The elites of the region look at NK and China versus the U.S. and SK -- plus U.S. allies and partners. It's no contest in favor of USA. Yet the regional elites know the people who can impact Trump have to get matters stable and that negotiations are the only way.

The peoples from Japan through the South China Sea countries to India know China and its imposing arrogance from thousands of years of it and they've never liked it. Now that so many of 'em are prosperous and democratic they want China stopped from its eternal bullying and from China's expectation it can get its way every time and always by being overly assertive, demanding, insistent and punishing. They look to the new kid on the block the United States to help 'em. It's a common ground we have with these peoples and nations no matter who Potus might be. They know for better or worse along the way the Americans do the right thing sooner or later. The elites of the region are patient and used to later in all things to the point of being laggards, which works to our benefit also.

Yes comrad Tangmo. We know you are a shill for rocketman.

 

[Tangmo]

Your history is really rusty. The US has dealt with North Korea long before Trump became president. Even Obama said that North Korea would be Trump's biggest international problem. Please show where the US has ever invaded North Korea. It is North Korea who invaded South Korea. Your geography is also lacking. Please provide a map that shows the US surrounds North Korea. Many of the weapons in Yemen come from Iran. The world is afraid of NK, that's why the UN has voted unanimously (including both Russia and China) to denuclearize NK and sanction them. Hell, Guam and Japan are behind Trump.

Guam is a USA territory which means it is a part of the United States. Guam has Andersen AFB which most recently has on hand B-1 bombers, the B-2 bomber, B-52s in addition to fighters and the Thaad missile defense platform. Still I can't envy Guam positioned as it is between Kim and Trump and near the China mainland closeby to Taiwan.

As to Japan it has become vital to U.S. security during this time of a nuclear NK and the new globally ambitious Boyz in Beijing.

That is, to the USA Japan is the new UK. Japan the island nation off the continent of Asia has become to the U.S. what Britain has been to the U.S. as an island nation off the continent of Europe. Japan is our base in the western Pacific. Japan is welcoming of hosting U.S. Naval Forces Japan to include the 7th Fleet, 3rd Marine Expeditionary Force, 5th U.S. Air Force and some U.S. Army. If Tokyo and Washington are not careful we're gonna end up sinking it by the sheer weight of it all...


There are 90 U.S. military facilities in Japan including major military bases throughout mainland and Okinawa. They include 37 in Okinawa, 15 in Kanagawa, 11 in Nagasaki, and 7 in Tokyo. About 52,000 U.S. forces are stationed in these bases, 26,000 in mainland and 25,000 in Okinawa. In mainland Japan, the largest contingent is the Air Force with 6,600 and that in Okinawa of Marines (15,500).

The U.S. armed forces in Japan, together with U.S. forces in South Korea, are under the Pacific Command located in Hawaii and commanded by Admiral Harry Harris Jr. The forces deployed to Japan are the integral part of the Pacific Force as the largest U.S. military foreign command with a vast jurisdiction extending from the U.S. western coast and the whole of the Pacific Ocean through the Indian Ocean to the eastern coasts of Africa.

The main U.S. bases in mainland Japan include Misawa Airbase, Yokota Airbase in Tokyo, Yokosuka Naval Base, Atsugi Air Base, Iwakuni Marine Base near Hiroshima, and Sasebo Naval Base in Nagasaki. Also there are munitions depots, communication bases, port facilities, warehouses, military barracks, residential estates.

US Military Bases in Mainland Japan and Okinawa


Japan supports and depends on the United States no matter who is the Potus. Let's not let 'em down over there because we'd only be letting ourselves down.

 

[Fledermaus]

Trump has threatened NK and vice versa. The USA has invaded NK in the past. The USA surrounds NK and presents a continuous threat. Kim is the same type of nutball as Trump. We sell more weapons than any Nation in the World. Look at Yemen and guess where the bombs come from. The World is afraid of a big US invasion of UK because they think Trump is a loose cannon.

/
/

What reality do you imagine he should acknowledge?

Trump has threatened NK and vice versa? NK has been threatening regularly since its inception. Long, LONG before Trump was on scene.

The USA has invaded NK in the past? In response to an invasion of SK in which the NK Army overran almost the entire peninsula. The US acted in conjunction with the UN to defeat NK aggression.

The USA surrounds NK and presents a continuous threat? A threat to WHAT exactly? A peaceful SK has prospered as has a relatively peaceful China. THOSE border NK, not the US.

Where the hell do you get your "history" from?

 

[Moderate Right]

Guam is a USA territory which means it is a part of the United States. Guam has Andersen AFB which most recently has on hand B-1 bombers, the B-2 bomber, B-52s in addition to fighters and the Thaad missile defense platform. Still I can't envy Guam positioned as it is between Kim and Trump and near the China mainland closeby to Taiwan.

As to Japan it has become vital to U.S. security during this time of a nuclear NK and the new globally ambitious Boyz in Beijing.

That is, to the USA Japan is the new UK. Japan the island nation off the continent of Asia has become to the U.S. what Britain has been to the U.S. as an island nation off the continent of Europe. Japan is our base in the western Pacific. Japan is welcoming of hosting U.S. Naval Forces Japan to include the 7th Fleet, 3rd Marine Expeditionary Force, 5th U.S. Air Force and some U.S. Army. If Tokyo and Washington are not careful we're gonna end up sinking it by the sheer weight of it all...


There are 90 U.S. military facilities in Japan including major military bases throughout mainland and Okinawa. They include 37 in Okinawa, 15 in Kanagawa, 11 in Nagasaki, and 7 in Tokyo. About 52,000 U.S. forces are stationed in these bases, 26,000 in mainland and 25,000 in Okinawa. In mainland Japan, the largest contingent is the Air Force with 6,600 and that in Okinawa of Marines (15,500).

The U.S. armed forces in Japan, together with U.S. forces in South Korea, are under the Pacific Command located in Hawaii and commanded by Admiral Harry Harris Jr. The forces deployed to Japan are the integral part of the Pacific Force as the largest U.S. military foreign command with a vast jurisdiction extending from the U.S. western coast and the whole of the Pacific Ocean through the Indian Ocean to the eastern coasts of Africa.

The main U.S. bases in mainland Japan include Misawa Airbase, Yokota Airbase in Tokyo, Yokosuka Naval Base, Atsugi Air Base, Iwakuni Marine Base near Hiroshima, and Sasebo Naval Base in Nagasaki. Also there are munitions depots, communication bases, port facilities, warehouses, military barracks, residential estates.

US Military Bases in Mainland Japan and Okinawa


Japan supports and depends on the United States no matter who is the Potus. Let's not let 'em down over there because we'd only be letting ourselves down.

Thanks for the education. Now what does that have to do with what we were talking about, other than the fact that the people who should worry the most, are on Trump's side? That tells you something right there.

 

[Tangmo]

Thanks for the education. Now what does that have to do with what we were talking about, other than the fact that the people who should worry the most, are on Trump's side? That tells you something right there.

Same as the Riddler does people who ask questions all the time provide their own answers every time anyway so I don't bother with 'em.

I would simply reiterate that the senior commanders of the U.S. nuclear arsenal have a say Constitutionally in whether Potus can use a nuclear weapon electively, i.e., in a first strike, whereas NK generals are as gung ho nutso about nuclear weapons as Kim is.

This is by LTC Geoffrey S. Corn retired who was the Army’s principal law of war officer....


U.S. generals and admirals would refuse the president’s commands...because our military has a duty to refuse clearly illegal orders. While military obedience to civilian command is a bedrock principle of our constitutional government, every commissioned officer swears an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States [only]. That singular focus of duty certainly includes obedience to the commander in chief, but only when his orders are lawful.

Ordering a war crime violates both international law and federal criminal law. The duty to disobey patently illegal orders is embedded in the military's Uniform Code of Military Justice and was championed by the United States at the Nuremberg trials following World War II: Soldiers cannot hide behind a “just following orders” defense to avoid criminal liability for war crimes.

The specter of military leaders tendering their resignation after refusing orders from President Trump isn’t mere hyperbole based on personal animus or political partisanship. The alarm was sounded by none other than retired four-star general Michael Hayden, who helped lead the Air Force and then served as the director of both the National Security Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency under former President George W. Bush.

That in itself is remarkable: The man who spent years providing our president with warnings about external and internal national security threats is now warning Americans that the...president may himself be a threat to our national security by issuing illegal orders. And the reason for his message is clear: Trump has repeatedly stated that he would issue such orders to our military, orders every member of the military is constitutionally bound to refuse to obey.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...y-torture-civilian-targeting-column/81271916/


Air Force captains and lieutenants in the ICBM silo command bunkers are officers sworn to the officer oath which excludes Potus and excludes the requirement to obey superiors appointed over 'em. The officer oath is what George Washington said it needs to be and what the Founders made it to be. It is an oath to the Constitution only, not to any person, single official or commander. The officer oath is to the three branches of the government as coequal entities, the separation of powers, the balance of powers. Elective first use of nuclear weapons is a whole government decision and not the decision of any one single official of it.


You're invited to spend the first five minutes of the film War Games which takes us into a nuclear weapons ICBM command silo when the launch order comes in and how the film presents the reaction of the USAF captain and lieutenant in it....

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=d456f7e89e0062ced936cbee56c6cd96&action=view

 

[Moderate Right]

Same as the Riddler does people who ask questions all the time provide their own answers every time anyway so I don't bother with 'em.

I would simply reiterate that the senior commanders of the U.S. nuclear arsenal have a say Constitutionally in whether Potus can use a nuclear weapon electively, i.e., in a first strike, whereas NK generals are as gung ho nutso about nuclear weapons as Kim is.

This is by LTC Geoffrey S. Corn retired who was the Army’s principal law of war officer....


U.S. generals and admirals would refuse the president’s commands...because our military has a duty to refuse clearly illegal orders. While military obedience to civilian command is a bedrock principle of our constitutional government, every commissioned officer swears an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States [only]. That singular focus of duty certainly includes obedience to the commander in chief, but only when his orders are lawful.

Ordering a war crime violates both international law and federal criminal law. The duty to disobey patently illegal orders is embedded in the military's Uniform Code of Military Justice and was championed by the United States at the Nuremberg trials following World War II: Soldiers cannot hide behind a “just following orders” defense to avoid criminal liability for war crimes.

The specter of military leaders tendering their resignation after refusing orders from President Trump isn’t mere hyperbole based on personal animus or political partisanship. The alarm was sounded by none other than retired four-star general Michael Hayden, who helped lead the Air Force and then served as the director of both the National Security Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency under former President George W. Bush.

That in itself is remarkable: The man who spent years providing our president with warnings about external and internal national security threats is now warning Americans that the...president may himself be a threat to our national security by issuing illegal orders. And the reason for his message is clear: Trump has repeatedly stated that he would issue such orders to our military, orders every member of the military is constitutionally bound to refuse to obey.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...y-torture-civilian-targeting-column/81271916/


Air Force captains and lieutenants in the ICBM silo command bunkers are officers sworn to the officer oath which excludes Potus and excludes the requirement to obey superiors appointed over 'em. The officer oath is what George Washington said it needs to be and what the Founders made it to be. It is an oath to the Constitution only, not to any person, single official or commander. The officer oath is to the three branches of the government as coequal entities, the separation of powers, the balance of powers. Elective first use of nuclear weapons is a whole government decision and not the decision of any one single official of it.


You're invited to spend the first five minutes of the film War Games which takes us into a nuclear weapons ICBM command silo when the launch order comes in and how the film presents the reaction of the USAF captain and lieutenant in it....

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=d456f7e89e0062ced936cbee56c6cd96&action=view

I have to confess you are boring me to death. I can't get past your first sentence or two. Yadda. Yadda. Yadda. Snore. We need a president who will use our vast nuclear arsenal as a bluffing and bargaining tool in dealing with people like rocketman. For eight years Obama constantly told enemies ahead of time what we would do and not do, including not using our nuclear arsenal in a first strike. Both Kennedy and Reagan brought us to the brink of nuclear war by being tough, which led to the world being much safer at those times. That's what we need.Crap like this general throws a monkey wrench into our bluffing strategy and makes the world a more dangerous place. By the way, why do you think there is a UN demilitarized zone between North and South Korea? Because the world is afraid of South Korea invading the North? I mean, come on.

 

[Fledermaus]

Thanks for the education. Now what does that have to do with what we were talking about, other than the fact that the people who should worry the most, are on Trump's side? That tells you something right there.

Same as the Riddler does people who ask questions all the time provide their own answers every time anyway so I don't bother with 'em.

<Snipped long C&P that only serves as padding>

You asked questions Tangmo didn't like. The response is normally an evasion followed by what I call "padding" which may, or may not, support his stance. Often posting things that actually contradict what he is currently rambling about.

If you ask too many damning questions he will put you on ignore.

 

[Moderate Right]

You asked questions Tangmo didn't like. The response is normally an evasion followed by what I call "padding" which may, or may not, support his stance. Often posting things that actually contradict what he is currently rambling about.

If you ask too many damning questions he will put you on ignore.

Thanks for tip.

 

[Tangmo]

I have to confess you are boring me to death. I can't get past your first sentence or two. Yadda. Yadda. Yadda. Snore. We need a president who will use our vast nuclear arsenal as a bluffing and bargaining tool in dealing with people like rocketman. For eight years Obama constantly told enemies ahead of time what we would do and not do, including not using our nuclear arsenal in a first strike. Both Kennedy and Reagan brought us to the brink of nuclear war by being tough, which led to the world being much safer at those times. That's what we need.Crap like this general throws a monkey wrench into our bluffing strategy and makes the world a more dangerous place. <<snip>> I mean, come on.

The lecturing and scolding from over there as if Trump were rational and even-tempered is wrong wrong wrong. You think Trump is "being tough" when Trump is being the moron idiot ignoramus dope those around him have stated he is. Moreover, if Trump is employing a "bluffing strategy" as you claim he is then if you know about it then Kim knows about it too eh. So you're welcome to play Russian Roulette and I'll be pleased to enable and assist you to the maximum extent possible.

You refer to Reagan and repeatedly, as if Reagan himself were not the end of dayze guy that Reagan wuz....


In May 1982, the New York Times revealed that President Reagan had committed the United States to fighting a protracted nuclear war -- lasting up to six months. "A war in which the U.S. could prevail and force the Soviet Union to seek earliest termination of hostilities on terms favorable to the United States."
_New York Times, May 1982

In 1982 President Reagan called the Soviet Union an "Evil Empire" and described his "plan and hope for the march of freedom and democracy which will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash-heap of history."
__President Reagan, June 1981

"We could wage and win a Cuban missile crisis today."
__Arms Control Agency head, Walter Rostow, 1983

During his 1980s Presidential campaign, Reagan told Fundamentalist Christian groups that he believed in the Biblical prophecy of Armageddon and that this could be the generation that sees Armageddon.
_President Reagan, Oct. 1984

Responding to President Reagan's belief in Armageddon, 100 American religious leaders signed a statement saying that they "find President Reagan's belief in the imminence of Armageddon profoundly disturbing."
_100 Christian Ministers, Oct. 1984



In May 1981, in response to President Reagan's aggressive talk about nuclear war, the Soviet Union instituted the RYAN (Nuclear-Rocket Attack) program, which created a "heightened state of intelligence alert."

In 1983 the RYAN program and Soviet paranoia over an American nuclear attack reached a new peak with the Soviet shooting-down of a Korean airliner that strayed into Soviet airspace over a top-secret missile warning installation in early September 1983. The shooting down of this commercial airliner was in part caused by increasing Soviet anxiety over what they considered an "imminent American nuclear attack." The Soviets believed that the November 1983 NATO exercise, Able Archer 83, designed to practice "command coordination" for a NATO nuclear attack, was in fact not an exercise at all but an actual Western nuclear strike against the Soviet Union. During this NATO exercise in November, the Soviets put their military forces on alert and prepared for a Western attack. See Martin Walker, The Cold War (pp. 274-75)


Rejecting MAD, Reagan brought out the NUTS strategy -- Nuclear Utilization Target Selection -- which called for the United States to have so many nuclear weapons that it could not only destroy the Soviet Union but it could destroy enough of the Soviets nuclear weapons so that the United States could fight and win a full-scale nuclear war. This NUTS strategy was based on what Secretary of Defense Casper Weinberger called an "American First Strike" capability, that is, we would have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the Soviet Union and destroy its nuclear arsenal with a nuclear first strike.

https://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/1025/nuclear.htm


Reagan set in sequence a $3 Trillion increased defense expenditure during the 1980s. Reagan's arms programs and committed contracts through 1997 increased the national debt from $970 billion in 1980 to $5.4 Trillion in 1997. Then came the post 9/11 wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

President Kennedy never talked in these ways nor -- it is entirely a certainty -- did JFK ever think in these ways. The Russian Soviet Union is gone but now we have Trump-Putin-Trump-Kelly vs our faithful generals holding 'em off, the CCP Dictator-Tyrants in Beijing, Kim III, the Ayatollahs in Iran, al Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS, Stephen Bannon, Roy Moore and DP rightwingers extreme. It's what I'd call a full plate to say the least and lined with nuts.

 

[Moderate Right]

The lecturing and scolding from over there as if Trump were rational and even-tempered is wrong wrong wrong. You think Trump is "being tough" when Trump is being the moron idiot ignoramus dope those around him have stated he is. Moreover, if Trump is employing a "bluffing strategy" as you claim he is then if you know about it then Kim knows about it too eh. So you're welcome to play Russian Roulette and I'll be pleased to enable and assist you to the maximum extent possible.

You refer to Reagan and repeatedly, as if Reagan himself were not the end of dayze guy that Reagan wuz....


In May 1982, the New York Times revealed that President Reagan had committed the United States to fighting a protracted nuclear war -- lasting up to six months. "A war in which the U.S. could prevail and force the Soviet Union to seek earliest termination of hostilities on terms favorable to the United States."
_New York Times, May 1982

In 1982 President Reagan called the Soviet Union an "Evil Empire" and described his "plan and hope for the march of freedom and democracy which will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash-heap of history."
__President Reagan, June 1981

"We could wage and win a Cuban missile crisis today."
__Arms Control Agency head, Walter Rostow, 1983

During his 1980s Presidential campaign, Reagan told Fundamentalist Christian groups that he believed in the Biblical prophecy of Armageddon and that this could be the generation that sees Armageddon.
_President Reagan, Oct. 1984

Responding to President Reagan's belief in Armageddon, 100 American religious leaders signed a statement saying that they "find President Reagan's belief in the imminence of Armageddon profoundly disturbing."
_100 Christian Ministers, Oct. 1984



In May 1981, in response to President Reagan's aggressive talk about nuclear war, the Soviet Union instituted the RYAN (Nuclear-Rocket Attack) program, which created a "heightened state of intelligence alert."

In 1983 the RYAN program and Soviet paranoia over an American nuclear attack reached a new peak with the Soviet shooting-down of a Korean airliner that strayed into Soviet airspace over a top-secret missile warning installation in early September 1983. The shooting down of this commercial airliner was in part caused by increasing Soviet anxiety over what they considered an "imminent American nuclear attack." The Soviets believed that the November 1983 NATO exercise, Able Archer 83, designed to practice "command coordination" for a NATO nuclear attack, was in fact not an exercise at all but an actual Western nuclear strike against the Soviet Union. During this NATO exercise in November, the Soviets put their military forces on alert and prepared for a Western attack. See Martin Walker, The Cold War (pp. 274-75)


Rejecting MAD, Reagan brought out the NUTS strategy -- Nuclear Utilization Target Selection -- which called for the United States to have so many nuclear weapons that it could not only destroy the Soviet Union but it could destroy enough of the Soviets nuclear weapons so that the United States could fight and win a full-scale nuclear war. This NUTS strategy was based on what Secretary of Defense Casper Weinberger called an "American First Strike" capability, that is, we would have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the Soviet Union and destroy its nuclear arsenal with a nuclear first strike.

https://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/1025/nuclear.htm


Reagan set in sequence a $3 Trillion increased defense expenditure during the 1980s. Reagan's arms programs and committed contracts through 1997 increased the national debt from $970 billion in 1980 to $5.4 Trillion in 1997. Then came the post 9/11 wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

President Kennedy never talked in these ways nor -- it is entirely a certainty -- did JFK ever think in these ways. The Russian Soviet Union is gone but now we have Trump-Putin-Trump-Kelly vs our faithful generals holding 'em off, the CCP Dictator-Tyrants in Beijing, Kim III, the Ayatollahs in Iran, al Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS, Stephen Bannon, Roy Moore and DP rightwingers extreme. It's what I'd call a full plate to say the least and lined with nuts.

Snore. Snore. You're really putting me to sleep. I bet you have a coexist bumper sticker on your car. Hitler didn't want to coexist. ISIS does not want to coexist. Rocketman doesn't want to coexist. Do you have any facts supporting the reason the UN has a demilitarized zone in Korea to stop the South from invading the North?

 

[Fledermaus]

President Kennedy never talked in these ways nor -- it is entirely a certainty -- did JFK ever think in these ways.

"It shall be the policy of this Nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union."
_ John F. Kennedy

 

[Tangmo]

Potus Kennedy spoke of massive nuclear retaliation which is the central tenet of Mutually Assured Destruction. MAD does not necessarily or adventurously presume or predict a winner in a nuclear holocaust. Reagan and his administration spoke of a six-month nuclear war the United States would win, against the Russian Soviet Union. Reagan tossed MAD in favor of NUTS (Nuclear Utilization Target Selection) which is the exact word for the Republicans who came up with it.

As to yet another Riddler Poster no one is wondering why the Demilitarized Zone exists between the land border of the two Koreas. You beg a specious question that is in return begging to remain obvious.. This comes while Trump is HimSelf tweeting instead about a black dad of a college basketball player nabbed in China for shoplifting while the White House is advocating a child molester for the U.S. Senate in Alabama in between talking about nuking 'em over there.


Meanwhile, back at the ranch of substance and serious discussion....


US Military to Disobey Trump’s ‘Illegal’ Nuclear Strike Order


US military commanders would disobey a presidential order to carry out a nuclear first strike which they view as illegal, former high-ranking Pentagon officials told a Senate hearing in Washington, Press TV reported.

During Tuesday’s hearing, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee examined President Donald Trump’s authority to launch a nuclear strike amid rising tensions with North Korea.

“We are concerned that the president of the United States is so unstable, is so volatile, has a decision-making process that is so quixotic, that he might order a nuclear strike that is widely out of step with US national security interests,” Democratic Senator Chris Murphy said during the hearing.

The committee’s chairman, Senator Bob Corker, a Republican, warned that “once that order is given and verified, there is no way to revoke it.” Former senior Pentagon officials told Senators that while President Trump has the authority to order a retaliatory nuclear strike, he is not allowed by law to launch a pre-emptive one.

When asked if he would obey an executive order to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike, retired Air Force General C. Robert Kehler said he would say he is not ready to proceed.

“It would be a very interesting constitutional situation, I believe. The military is obligated to follow legal orders but is not obligated to follow illegal orders,” added Kehler, who led the US Strategic Command. “This is a system controlled by human beings. Nothing happens automatically,” he noted.

https://special-ops.org/news/us/us-military-disobey-trumps-illegal-nuclear-strike-order/




Then there is Charlottesville when all of the Joint Chiefs and Chairman tweeted the opposite of Trump....



Analysis: U.S. Generals Lead Unprecedented Revolt Against Trump, Their Commander in Chief

Army brass know that if every black soldier quit in protest over Donald Trump’s comments, the U.S. military would collapse

When you combine 19th Century Man and 21st-century powers, you get U.S. President Donald Trump. And when you refuse to accept Trump, you get the most amazing phenomenon: the public stand of the Joint Chiefs of Staff against their commander in chief.

This is unprecedented in U.S. history. Never before have the generals and admirals been so united.

But there is no precedent for this united front, a calculated provocation against the president who is capable – legally and temperamentally – of dismissing them all, even if it also means the resignation of Secretary of Defense James Mattis.

Tweets instead of obedience: that’s what Trump received from the chiefs of staff of U.S. Naval Operations, the Marine Corps, the U.S. Army and the U.S. Air Force, along with the head of the National Guard and commandant of the Coast Guard.

There’s a great irony in Trump’s clash with senior army officers over his comments about events in Charlottesville. Trump, who with his aching feet evaded the draft during the Vietnam War, revels in the military atmosphere. He’s an armchair strategist whose armchair happens to be located in the world’s most important office. There, he plays the general and coins alliterative phrases like “fire and fury” and “locked and loaded.” Yet he is now the target of fire and fury from the very officers he so admires.

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.807593


In geology it's called it erosion. Over time the erosion of authority becomes something else bigger and stronger. This is especially true when the authority is dubious (at best) to begin with. We're seeing it already in the nuclear issue of an elective first strike on order of Potus only, singularly and at his whim as a nutcase who actually has some support here and there.

 

[Fledermaus]

Potus Kennedy spoke of massive nuclear retaliation which is the central tenet of Mutually Assured Destruction. <Snipped C&P padding>.

President Kennedy never talked in these ways nor -- it is entirely a certainty -- did JFK ever think in these ways.

Someone spoke out of their southern passage....