• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Evidence for the Bible / God

tarheel

Banned
Joined
Jun 14, 2015
Messages
60
Reaction score
15
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Evidence for the Bible / God

Critics claim there is no evidence for God or the Bible / New Testament. Many scholars have been refuting that idea for centuries, noting archaeological evidence, fulfilled Messianic prophecies, and so on.

This thread is for debate on those issues.

p.s. This thread is being created again because we can't argue for the existence or non-existence of God in the religion forum. Here in the philosophy forum we can.
 

OrphanSlug

A sinister place...
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
25,616
Reaction score
22,282
Location
Atlanta
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Care to share with us the "scholars" and the "archaeological evidence" that means direct evidence of God?
 

HowardBThiname

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
10,573
Reaction score
5,172
Location
America's Heartland
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
Evidence for the Bible / God

Critics claim there is no evidence for God or the Bible / New Testament. Many scholars have been refuting that idea for centuries, noting archaeological evidence, fulfilled Messianic prophecies, and so on.

This thread is for debate on those issues.

p.s. This thread is being created again because we can't argue for the existence or non-existence of God in the religion forum. Here in the philosophy forum we can.

Okay, as far as I know, there is evidence for some of the events and people mentioned in the Bible, from the writings of Historians, but there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus outside of the religious scriptures and there is every reason to believe a great deal of the Old Testament is etiological in nature.
 

CMPancake

No gods, no masters.
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
6,250
Reaction score
6,247
Location
Tacoma
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
Adding onto OrphanSlug's questions, what about these so called "fulfilled Messianic prophecies." Because if I remember correctly, the old testament predicted that Egypt would be a barren wasteland.
 

Logicman

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
19,457
Reaction score
1,947
Location
United States
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
Okay, as far as I know, there is evidence for some of the events and people mentioned in the Bible, from the writings of Historians, but there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus outside of the religious scriptures....

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources - bethinking.org

and there is every reason to believe a great deal of the Old Testament is etiological in nature.

The origins of Christianity are found in the person of one Jesus Christ of Bethlehem / Nazareth, and the Old Testament scriptures.
 

HowardBThiname

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
10,573
Reaction score
5,172
Location
America's Heartland
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist

HowardBThiname

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
10,573
Reaction score
5,172
Location
America's Heartland
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
Adding onto OrphanSlug's questions, what about these so called "fulfilled Messianic prophecies." Because if I remember correctly, the old testament predicted that Egypt would be a barren wasteland.


For some odd reason, I can't find OrphanSlug's comments - maybe my settings or something - but it bears note that not all the prophecies were fulfilled. In addition, the person named Jesus in the Bible descends through the cursed king, Jeconiah. God's curse was that NO descendant of Jeconiah could ever sit on the throne of Israel.

That right there bumps Jesus out of the running.
 

zyzygy

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
43,901
Reaction score
8,676
Location
Flanders.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Care to share with us the "scholars" and the "archaeological evidence" that means direct evidence of God?

Presenting something that does not exist certainly is a challenge.
 

zyzygy

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
43,901
Reaction score
8,676
Location
Flanders.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Adding onto OrphanSlug's questions, what about these so called "fulfilled Messianic prophecies." Because if I remember correctly, the old testament predicted that Egypt would be a barren wasteland.

According to yet another failed bible prophecy the city of Tyre should not exist.
 

Paralogic

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2012
Messages
3,041
Reaction score
565
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
p.s. This thread is being created again because we can't argue for the existence or non-existence of God in the religion forum. Here in the philosophy forum we can.


We can and we have and we have settled on it. By "we" I mean the intelligent among us.

No claim for any supernatural being has ever been substantiated. Therefore no claim for any supernatural being is true, call it Bible or Mountain god or spirit god of the pacific seas or anything you want.

There's no poing in arguing the specifics of a book written by goat herders 2,000 years ago. No gods could exist, did exist, do exist, or will ever exist. The idea of a god is a human creation, therefore not real by definition.

Why do people keep on asking the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?
 

Summerwind

Hot Flash Mama
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
11,010
Reaction score
5,149
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
We can and we have and we have settled on it. By "we" I mean the intelligent among us.

No claim for any supernatural being has ever been substantiated. Therefore no claim for any supernatural being is true, call it Bible or Mountain god or spirit god of the pacific seas or anything you want.

There's no poing in arguing the specifics of a book written by goat herders 2,000 years ago. No gods could exist, did exist, do exist, or will ever exist. The idea of a god is a human creation, therefore not real by definition.

Why do people keep on asking the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?

I wouldn't mind them asking if they had any intention of letting facts into their dialog, but they don't, that's the truly annoying part.
 

Paralogic

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2012
Messages
3,041
Reaction score
565
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I wouldn't mind them asking if they had any intention of letting facts into their dialog, but they don't, that's the truly annoying part.

That's a polite way of dealing with this. But the fact is that people are ignorant and they want to impose their will and their fantasies upon everyone else.

Thank the universe for the Greek philosophers that taught us logic and reason and how to separate fiction from statements of true importance.
 

Summerwind

Hot Flash Mama
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
11,010
Reaction score
5,149
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
That's a polite way of dealing with this. But the fact is that people are ignorant and they want to impose their will and their fantasies upon everyone else.

Thank the universe for the Greek philosophers that taught us logic and reason and how to separate fiction from statements of true importance.

OMG! I don't think I've ever been pegged as "polite" in this forum. I'm swooning or reeling, I'm not sure which. ;)
 

Paralogic

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2012
Messages
3,041
Reaction score
565
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
OMG! I don't think I've ever been pegged as "polite" in this forum. I'm swooning or reeling, I'm not sure which. ;)

If you get the same drones asking the same stupid questions over and over and over again, you'd have to be polite, at the least, for still talking to them. :)
 

Logicman

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
19,457
Reaction score
1,947
Location
United States
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
That's what I said - all references come from the religious scriptures. I'm just pointing out that there are no outside, contemporary, verifications.

I'd like to remind folks in this thread that in the first century there was no New Testament per se. But there were over two dozen independent Gospels and/or Epistles that either directly or indirectly confirmed Jesus Christ and first century Christianity. And that is independent verification.
 

Somerville

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2012
Messages
15,724
Reaction score
6,615
Location
On an island. Not that one!
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
I'd like to remind folks in this thread that in the first century there was no New Testament per se. But there were over two dozen independent Gospels and/or Epistles that either directly or indirectly confirmed Jesus Christ and first century Christianity. And that is independent verification.

NO, it is not independent verification. The text we have today was created, edited or interpolated in the second century. Most scholars will agree that some of the Epistles were composed in the first century but probably not in the format we presently know. In the academic, non seminary world, those who study the New Testament say that only seven of the Epistles attributed to Paul were written by one person; however, the epistles we know today are in every instance actually amalgamations of several letters which have resulted in the ones we now have.
 

Logicman

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
19,457
Reaction score
1,947
Location
United States
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
NO, it is not independent verification.

Yes, it is.

The text we have today was created, edited or interpolated in the second century. Most scholars will agree that some of the Epistles were composed in the first century but probably not in the format we presently know. In the academic, non seminary world, those who study the New Testament say that only seven of the Epistles attributed to Paul were written by one person; however, the epistles we know today are in every instance actually amalgamations of several letters which have resulted in the ones we now have.

Sorry, not buying it. According to the opinions of dozens of scholars the Gospels and Epistles are all first century.

A Chronological Order of The New Testament Books
 

HowardBThiname

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
10,573
Reaction score
5,172
Location
America's Heartland
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
I'd like to remind folks in this thread that in the first century there was no New Testament per se. But there were over two dozen independent Gospels and/or Epistles that either directly or indirectly confirmed Jesus Christ and first century Christianity. And that is independent verification.

The gospels/epistles are religious documents. What I am saying is that no historians that lived in the time and region of Jesus, ever noted that there was a man who was causing quite a stir among the Jews. These historian make note of many others who lived in that time, others who are mentioned in the religious documents, but there is no outside contemporary evidence that makes any sort of mention of any son of God.

The story of Jesus closely follows the earlier accounts of Dionysos and Mithras. And, to some extent, Osiris.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,151
Reaction score
21,551
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
For some odd reason, I can't find OrphanSlug's comments - maybe my settings or something - but it bears note that not all the prophecies were fulfilled. In addition, the person named Jesus in the Bible descends through the cursed king, Jeconiah. God's curse was that NO descendant of Jeconiah could ever sit on the throne of Israel.

That right there bumps Jesus out of the running.

Christ is not a descendent of Jeconiah.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,151
Reaction score
21,551
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
The story of Jesus closely follows the earlier accounts of Dionysos and Mithras. And, to some extent, Osiris.

Bull****. Christ was neither sewn to his fathers leg, a God of oaths, or chopped into pieces and ****ed by his wife.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,151
Reaction score
21,551
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
The bible states that he is in Matthew 1-12.

Let's do some reading:

12 After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of [n]Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel. 13 Zerubbabel was the father of [o]Abihud, Abihud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor. 14 Azor was the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud. 15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob. 16 Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been [v]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.


Christ was of the house of David through the marriage of his mother to Joseph, but Joseph was not his father.
 

HowardBThiname

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
10,573
Reaction score
5,172
Location
America's Heartland
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
Bull****. Christ was neither sewn to his fathers leg, a God of oaths, or chopped into pieces and ****ed by his wife.

Splitting hairs. Tiny details only reflect the individual myths. The overall themes are the same.

In all the myths, we have godmen who are born of virgins. They are half man - half god, just as in the Jesus story. They lead exemplary lives. They stand up for the downtrodden - and eventually - they are all killed. But, that does not stop them - they spend some time in the underworld before rising again.

Many pagan myths feature eating the dead godman. That played a strong and vital role in "internalizing" the myth. The blood and body of the Christ is signified by wine and bread, but the myth remains on course. Even today, the RCC insists on the doctrine of transubstantiation, meaning the wine and wafer really do turn to Christ's blood and flesh in the tummy.

Interesting, no?
 

HowardBThiname

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
10,573
Reaction score
5,172
Location
America's Heartland
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
Christ was of the house of David through the marriage of his mother to Joseph, but Joseph was not his father.

That makes no difference. The prophecy insists that he be born of the house of David, and as genealogy was only traced through males, the genealogy in Matthew links him to the house of David. Unfortunately, it also passes through Jechoniah.
 
Top Bottom