Evidence for the Bible / God [W536; 634]

[blarg]

Don't move the goal posts now.

I cited Josephus to support the historicity of James.

Just because the patristics are christian doesn't mean they cannot be used as evidence, just as Roman historians are used as evidence for Roman emperor history.

so no secular sources that support Christianity being true just that its founders existed

 

[DDD]

Give you a couple: Contains extra-biblical references to Jesus. Discusses the fallacies of the Documentary Hypothesis. You'll have to buy the book for more, or read it free at a local library (if they have it).

They do not and you are not helping. So I do not think there was a point in this reference of yours.

 

[DDD]

Christ and His followers died in indifference to Rome.

That is your anecdotal evidence. Mine is they were a political party struggling to be free from Rome.

The thing is your anecdotal evidence expressed right now, mine, as well as others in this thread, are equal anecdotal evidences as presented in religious books (i.e., they are all anecdotal). This especially applies when magical fairy tales are mentioned in them.

 

[Logicman]

They do not and you are not helping. So I do not think there was a point in this reference of yours.

The point is I think you could benefit by reading the book I suggested.

How many works like that have you actually bothered to read?

 

[phattonez]

That is your anecdotal evidence. Mine is they were a political party struggling to be free from Rome.

You have no evidence that shows such a thing.

The thing is your anecdotal evidence expressed right now, mine, as well as others in this thread, are equal anecdotal evidences as presented in religious books (i.e., they are all anecdotal). This especially applies when magical fairy tales are mentioned in them.

Read what Tacitus writes about the Christians:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind

That is, Nero blamed them for the burning of Rome, but Tacitus knew that was not their crime. He didn't even see them as anti-Roman. Rather, he hated what he thought was their worldview and how they did things. As I said, it is indifference, not rebellion.

 

[DDD]

The point is I think you could benefit by reading the book I suggested.

How many works like that have you actually bothered to read?

Well the religious books for one. I was wondered at what BS people believe.

How many times did you care to consider the lack of solid evidence that would support the magical statements in religious books?

 

[DDD]

You have no evidence that shows such a thing.

I do.

See they wrote things that they liked to see just like I am here right. My words equal to anecdotal evidence just like theirs and are in written also.

I say Christ was a politician that promoted insane beliefs as desperate means to beat Rome. I at least do not wish to promote magical BS with these statements of mine.

 

[phattonez]

I do.

See they wrote things that they liked to see just like I am here right. My words equal to anecdotal evidence just like theirs and are in written also.

I say Christ was a politician that promoted insane beliefs as desperate means to beat Rome. I at least do not wish to promote magical BS with these statements of mine.

Yet you have no evidence for your beliefs, and you dismiss any other claims as BS without any evidence. Who is being irrational?

 

[DDD]

Yet you have no evidence for your beliefs, and you dismiss any other claims as BS without any evidence. Who is being irrational?

The authors of religious books have no evidence neither. They just wrote how they experienced it = anecdotal evidence.

I experience Christ as a political leader = Anecdotal evidence.

My say is just as good as theirs.

 

[Logicman]

Well the religious books for one. I was wondered at what BS people believe.

How many times did you care to consider the lack of solid evidence that would support the magical statements in religious books?

Somehow I missed where science had proven that God and the supernatural cannot and do not exist.

As for 'magic,' you guys have your own miracles you have to believe in to make your world view fly, i.e. a whole universe suddenly appearing out of nowhere, and the mathematically improbably advent of abiogenesis, just to name a few.

Recommended reading:

 

[Tim the plumber]

Yet you have no evidence for your beliefs, and you dismiss any other claims as BS without any evidence. Who is being irrational?

You are because you believe one set of gibberish over other similar stuff for no decent reason.

Show evidence that your God is more credible than the others and you have got a good way there.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Somehow I missed where science had proven that God and the supernatural cannot and do not exist.

As for 'magic,' you guys have your own miracles you have to believe in to make your world view fly, i.e. a whole universe suddenly appearing out of nowhere, and the mathematically improbably advent of abiogenesis, just to name a few.

Recommended reading:

View attachment 67164309

You don't get it. We are quite happy to say "we don't know" about things which we don't know.

We don't know what started the big bang. So?

We do know how complex carbon chemicals will start to combine in situations of liquid water and no free oxygen plus loads of other chemicals. We also understand how the process of selection will cause the best able to replicate to replicate the best. We also have lots of evidence which was left in the rocks which were laid down as all this happened. It's interesting and fun to look at. If you are still reading you are not of a religious persuasion. You would have already seen the facts of the world and the facts of the BS in the Bible.

 

[phattonez]

The authors of religious books have no evidence neither. They just wrote how they experienced it = anecdotal evidence.

I experience Christ as a political leader = Anecdotal evidence.

My say is just as good as theirs.

You experience Christ nothing. You have no experience of Him. That's the problem with your "evidence".

 

[phattonez]

You are because you believe one set of gibberish over other similar stuff for no decent reason.

Show evidence that your God is more credible than the others and you have got a good way there.

The persecution of the early Church. Many within a generation of Christ died for their beliefs and they could know firsthand about the crucifixion of Christ. They died, no body was ever found despite Rome and the Jews hunting for it. The apostles did not give up despite torture, even skinning alive. That's evidence to me that Christ really resurrected and ascended rather than the apostles hiding the body.

 

[RogueWarrior]

Somehow I missed where science had proven that God and the supernatural cannot and do not exist.

As for 'magic,' you guys have your own miracles you have to believe in to make your world view fly, i.e. a whole universe suddenly appearing out of nowhere, and the mathematically improbably advent of abiogenesis, just to name a few.

Recommended reading:

View attachment 67164309

Typical theist bovine excrement.

You theists ALWAYS mix in stuff that has nothing to do with a belief/non belief in a god. It has been said before:
Even if all of evolution, abiogenesis, geology, cosmology et al. was proven to be wrong tomorrow, that would NOT address the question of the existence or non-existence of gods. These subjects are irrelevant to atheist's non-belief.

You theists ALWAYS believe that all atheists have the same world view which absolutely not true. The ONLY THING atheists have in common is non-belief in a deity. Everything else is as varied as everyone else.

You theists ALWAYS believe, because it is critical to your agenda, that all atheists are asserting that gods and the supernatural cannot exist. That also is bovine excrement because most of us are not asserting that AT ALL. It has nothing to do with not believing theistic assertions. It is another, similar but completely irrelevant topic.

You theists (whether they be a muslim, hindu, christian, jew, deist or another) are asserting that gods do exist.

The
Only
Thing
Atheists
Are
Saying
Is:

We don't believe you.

 

[blarg]

The persecution of the early Church. Many within a generation of Christ died for their beliefs and they could know firsthand about the crucifixion of Christ. They died, no body was ever found despite Rome and the Jews hunting for it. The apostles did not give up despite torture, even skinning alive. That's evidence to me that Christ really resurrected and ascended rather than the apostles hiding the body.

being persecuted doesn't make you right

we don't know any 1 hunted for that body

and theirs ways to get rid of 1 that don't involve making it live gain and then mysteriously vanish

 

[phattonez]

being persecuted doesn't make you right

we don't know any 1 hunted for that body

and theirs ways to get rid of 1 that don't involve making it live gain and then mysteriously vanish

The Jews absolutely hunted for the body. That's why the apostles were tortured to death, and they did not change their story. The fact is that the resurrection of Jesus made the Jews look terrible, and they wanted desperately to quench the rising Christian religion. All that they would have needed to do was find the body, but they never could find it. And the apostles never gave up the body even under torture, which means that Jesus resurrected; they did not hide the body.

 

[blarg]

The Jews absolutely hunted for the body. That's why the apostles were tortured to death, and they did not change their story. The fact is that the resurrection of Jesus made the Jews look terrible, and they wanted desperately to quench the rising Christian religion. All that they would have needed to do was find the body, but they never could find it. And the apostles never gave up the body even under torture, which means that Jesus resurrected; they did not hide the body.

who said they hunted for the body

people don't always tolerate new religions or changes to existing ones that explains the persecution

 

[Cephus]

who said they hunted for the body

people don't always tolerate new religions or changes to existing ones that explains the persecution

It's all part of his desperate ad hoc rationalization for his beliefs. Of course the Jews must have done these things, it's the only way that the claims make any sense. We know that religious persecution has always existed, all you have to do is look at history. The Christians chased the Mormons most of the way across the country. I don't think we can argue that the Christians really examined Joseph Smith's claims or tried to validate them, they simply rejected them, as the Jews almost certainly did with Christian claims, and condemned them because they followed the wrong imaginary friend.

 

[Logicman]

You don't get it. We are quite happy to say "we don't know" about things which we don't know.

We don't know what started the big bang. So?

So, you still believe in the unexplained except when it comes to the supernatural. THEN you say it's impossible. Why don't you just say we don't know how that happens either so you can be consistent in your thinking?

 

[RGacky3]

I am sorry...but "all those other things", and "Pointing to" something do not constitute Fact or evidence in any situation based in reality.

You have been taking Biblical Testimony to try to prove something only represented in the Bible you are trying to prove.

This is similar to claiming the Hobbits in the LOTR are real because they are testified to by the Dwarves in the story.

Unless you can provide evidence from ANY outside source to prove something scientifically impossible, there is nothing but fictional literature to examine. If my ears were plugged, How would I have heard you make such claims in the first place.

the bible isn't one source .... for goodness sake get that into your head, it's MULTIPLE SOURCES, also historians almost always only have one source for an ancient event, the way the determine whether it is true or not is with the historical method.

 

[phattonez]

who said they hunted for the body

people don't always tolerate new religions or changes to existing ones that explains the persecution

That doesn't explain why the Jews cared. Were the Jews out hunting Samaritans and killing them? No, they just ignored them.

 

[Logicman]

We don't believe you.

That's fine except you don't have scientific studies to conclusively demonstrate that God and the supernatural cannot and do not exist.

All you have is your unsubstantiated bias.

 

[RGacky3]

Why do you lie so much, Racky? It's a bad habit with you.

Shall I link back to all the discussions where you posted links you did'nt read and cited scriptures you didn't read?

Am I wrong that you believe that Allah is actually an ancient moon God and the Zohar talks about the trinity?

 

[RGacky3]

It is neither hints/points, nor fact, nor "historical scholarship." Your stance on magical resurrection lies in anecdotal evidence.

I provide anecdotal evidence also. Here is my anecdotal evidence: Christ as well as their followers lied in order to beat Rome.

That isn't anecdotal evidence because it isn't supported by ANY of the early sources or ANY of the actual facts or ANY of the history of early christianity.

I presented 4 facts, from history, accepted by almost all historical scholarship, you posted you're explination, which was that Christ and his followers lied in order to beat Rome ... I dare you to go into ANY university that has new testament or early christianity scholars and present that, you'd be laughed out of the room ... you know why? because NONE of the evidence supports that theory.