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Even Doctors Value The Health of The Fetus

Here's a point, let's see you address it:

If the health of the fetus is important enough to justify fetal surgery with its health risks to the mother then it demonstrates a significant valuation of fetal health by the medical community.
No. Rather, it demonstrates a significant valuation of this particular fetus by the mother. (Or state....if you will)
Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning should require that this high value placed on fetal health also apply to other medically sanctioned surgeries/treatments affecting the fetus such as abortion.
You're simply begging the question here. You've assumed a defacto valuation (of the fetus) by the medical community because they've performed surgeries on fetuses in the past.
So what?
Look at it this way: Doctors have likewise performed abortions in the past as well.... therefore, does that now equally imply the fetus has absolutely no value?

What's the key factor missing from your spurious estimation? As per the anti-choice norm....that would be the mother's volition.

Go back to the drawing board.
 
I've asked you to cite all that. It's your opinion, I gave you examples that show the inconsistency is common. You ignored them. So...I provided proof...you provided your opinion.
That's weird. For some reason I don't recall you ever giving proof. I gave logical and moral reasoning, not mere opinion. I checked some of your past posts and didn't find where you showed examples and gave proof showing that inconsistency is common. Even if you did show inconsistency is common, that wouldn't validate whether or not inconsistency is warranted. Just because something is common doesn't make it morally correct.

Citations?
I don't need citations. It's self-evident. The burden of proof is on you to show why a special exception should be made for the only procedure with the expectation of fetal death. The one arguing for special pleading has the burden of proof. So where's your citations?

My words exactly addressed it: "...the woman actively requests and consents specifically to the risks of the fetal surgery. It's a separate act from any prior consent regarding the pregnancy."

And no that doesnt imply there's no additional risk. The woman is informed by the doctors...and makes an informed, specific, and separate decision. You make it seem like women are stupid, as if we dont realize that ANY medical procedure has its risks.
I took the words,"how is it different" at this post to imply that it doesn't make a difference if the risks of fetal surgery are accepted. In this case, thanks for the clarification.
 
That's weird. For some reason I don't recall you ever giving proof. I gave logical and moral reasoning, not mere opinion. I checked some of your past posts and didn't find where you showed examples and gave proof showing that inconsistency is common. Even if you did show inconsistency is common, that wouldn't validate whether or not inconsistency is warranted. Just because something is common doesn't make it morally correct.

This is the 2nd time I said I did. Follow the arrows back and look for "prison," "abuse," etc.

So how do you validate if inconsistency is warranted? You made this up to begin with, now cite it like I asked.

I don't need citations. It's self-evident. The burden of proof is on you to show why a special exception should be made for the only procedure with the expectation of fetal death. The one arguing for special pleading has the burden of proof. So where's your citations?

Bullshit it's not self-evident. And it's not a special exception...I gave you examples. Now: citations are required for this:

"Ethical principles like beneficence and non-maleficence are applied uniformly based on the value of the being, not the type of medical intervention."

I took the words,"how is it different" at this post to imply that it doesn't make a difference if the risks of fetal surgery are accepted. In this case, thanks for the clarification.

Good. I've never implied that it's not important if the woman accepts the risks. You are looking so hard to make your arguments you arent reading properly.

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Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning should require that this high value placed on fetal health be considered in other decisions affecting the fetus such as abortion.
Why? You've made no argument in support of this, beyond declaration.

This doesn't address the particular specificities respecting the abortion scenario. It's simply a rationalization toward a default abrogation of women's very right to freely make these decisions.
 
No. Rather, it demonstrates a significant valuation of this particular fetus by the mother. (Or state....if you will)
What's the key factor missing from your spurious estimation? As per the anti-choice norm....that would be the mother's volition.'
Already answered multiple times. The mother's volition or consent doesn't change the purpose of surgery as sanctioned by the medical community:
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The medical community has established heart surgery as a critical intervention to treat severe heart disease. This purpose exists independently of whether any particular individual with heart disease seeks treatment. Whether or not a person with severe heart disease enters a doctor's office does not change the medical community’s commitment to treating heart disease.

If a person with severe heart disease doesn't walk into a doctor's office and doesn't consent to a medical examination, then the doctor has ZERO knowledge of the status of the clogged arteries. This changes NOTHING about the purpose of heart surgery. The existence and purpose of heart surgery remain the same regardless of whether someone seeks treatment. Likewise, the existence and purpose of fetal surgeries remain the same regardless of whether someone seeks treatment.


You're simply begging the question here. You've assumed a defacto valuation (of the fetus) by the medical community because they've performed surgeries on fetuses in the past.
So what?
The valuation of fetal health by the medical community is not an assumption but clearly evident due to the importance given to improve or save the fetus's life, despite significant risks to the mother.

Look at it this way: Doctors have likewise performed abortions in the past as well.... therefore, does that now equally imply the fetus has absolutely no value?
Abortion is the only procedure that goes against the principle of "do no harm" (non-maleficence). Using it to argue that fetuses have no value ignores the consistent ethical framework applied to all other medical procedures involving fetuses, making your argument arbitrary and logically inconsistent. Therefore, the value placed on fetuses by the medical community should be guided by the principle of preserving life, not by the exceptional case of abortion.

Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning should require that this high value placed on fetal health be considered in other decisions affecting the fetus such as abortion.
Why? You've made no argument in support of this, beyond declaration.

This doesn't address the particular specificities respecting the abortion scenario. It's simply a rationalization toward a default abrogation of women's very right to freely make these decisions.
Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning necessitates the principle of "do no harm" (non-maleficence) be applied across all medical procedures, including those involving fetuses. Arguing that fetuses have no value based on the practice of abortion without valid justification is an instance of special pleading. Therefore, the value placed on fetal life by the medical community should be guided by the principle of preserving life to ensure that ethical considerations are applied consistently and not arbitrarily devalued by the exceptional nature of abortion.
 
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The valuation of fetal health by the medical community is not an assumption but clearly evident due to the importance given to improve or save the fetus's life, despite significant risks to the mother.

No one has objected to that statement. However the risks to the mother are only assumed if the mother accepts and consents to those risks. They are not assumed on behalf of the unborn without her consent.

Abortion is the only procedure that goes against the principle of "do no harm" (non-maleficence).

Malfeasance is "wrong-doing or misconduct." The medical community sanctions this procedure, it's not misconduct. Also, who says it's "wrong?"

Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning necessitates the principle of "do no harm" (non-maleficence) be applied across all medical procedures, including those involving fetuses.

Elective abortion would not be sanctioned by the medical community if it was considered malfeasance and/or unethical. So who says your "reasoning" necessitates anything? Citation?

Arguing that fetuses have no value based on the practice of abortion without valid justification is an instance of special pleading. Therefore, the value placed on fetal life by the medical community should be guided by the principle of preserving life to ensure that ethical considerations are applied consistently and not arbitrarily devalued by the exceptional nature of abortion.

Did that poster say the unborn have no value? I know I didnt. So unless he did, why do you keep posting that assumption?

☮️ 🇺🇸 ☮️
 
So how do you validate if inconsistency is warranted? You made this up to begin with, now cite it like I asked.
Bullshit it's not self-evident. And it's not a special exception...I gave you examples. Now: citations are required for this:

"Ethical principles like beneficence and non-maleficence are applied uniformly based on the value of the being, not the type of medical intervention."
I'll rewrite it for clarification: Ethical principles like beneficence and non-maleficence are applied uniformly by medical organizations to promote and protect human health. In veterinary medicine, these principles are still applied but differently. However, since veterinarians do not perform surgeries on human fetuses, the application of these principles in human medical contexts remains distinct.

No one has objected to that statement. However the risks to the mother are only assumed if the mother accepts and consents to those risks. They are not assumed on behalf of the unborn without her consent.
The valuation of fetal health by the medical community is not just an assumption but a reflection of the ethical principles guiding medical practice. This valuation is evident in the lengths to which medical professionals go to ensure the well-being of the fetus, even when it involves significant health risks for the mother and requires the mother's informed consent.

Malfeasance is "wrong-doing or misconduct." The medical community sanctions this procedure, it's not misconduct. Also, who says it's "wrong?"
I didn't say malfeasance (which does mean wrong-doing/misconduct). I said non-maleficence (which means "do no harm").

Elective abortion would not be sanctioned by the medical community if it was considered malfeasance and/or unethical. So who says your "reasoning" necessitates anything? Citation?
Just because a procedure is sanctioned by the medical community does not automatically mean it is universally considered ethical or moral, nor is it free from ethical scrutiny. Lobotomies, the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, and forced sterilizations of 60,000 people in the US were all sanctioned by the medical community.
 
I'll rewrite it for clarification: Ethical principles like beneficence and non-maleficence are applied uniformly by medical organizations to promote and protect human health. In veterinary medicine, these principles are still applied but differently. However, since veterinarians do not perform surgeries on human fetuses, the application of these principles in human medical contexts remains distinct.

I already asked you to cite that, the whole 'uniformly' presumption, etc. And I provided examples where it's not. Prison hospitals was one of them.

The valuation of fetal health by the medical community is not just an assumption but a reflection of the ethical principles guiding medical practice.

Who said it was?

This valuation is evident in the lengths to which medical professionals go to ensure the well-being of the fetus, even when it involves significant health risks for the mother and requires the mother's informed consent.

This is your opinion. Nothing more. They wouldnt do it without being asked and without being paid. Are you saying that the general practice of feta surgery is free? What "lengths" do they go to? Specify.

They work to fix the medical problem the unborn has, like any medical procedure, including veterinarian ones on other species. It's not "unborn-specific." They arent risking their own lives. They dont stop pregnancy women in public and ask to do ultrasounds to seek medical issues in the unborn.

Doctors do not do fetal surgeries "pro-actively."

I didn't say malfeasance (which does mean wrong-doing/misconduct). I said non-maleficence (which means "do no harm").

It means the opposite of malfeasance. Dont invent stuff. And since elective abortion is clearly sanctioned by the medical community, your claim is wrong.

Is it your intention to pose your argument for the medical community? That might be more appropriate.

Just because a procedure is sanctioned by the medical community does not automatically mean it is universally considered ethical or moral, nor is it free from ethical scrutiny.

Who said it was? Having an abortion is a choice and performing an abortion is a choice. And it's not free from ethical scrutiny...all medical procedures have guidelines and policies and are reviewed for ethical and safety concerns.

I've asked you many times...who says abortion is wrong. So include unethical. What authority that Americans are obligated to follow? That the medical community is obligated to follow?

obotomies, the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, and forced sterilizations of 60,000 people in the US were all sanctioned by the medical community.

Those all did harm to people without their consent. The unborn isnt 'people,' and it cannot consent to anything. The woman has the power of consent. The medical community cannot act on or protect the unborn without her consent. If it does, then it is behaving like those that did the syphilis study or forced sterilizations. And as you wrote...that is unethical.
 
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I already asked you to cite that, the whole 'uniformly' presumption, etc. And I provided examples where it's not. Prison hospitals was one of them.
I already cited the AMA principles which apply to all US physicians. Prison hospitals are not an example, the principles are still applied.

Who said it was?
Nobody needs to say. Actions and principles demonstrate it.

This is your opinion. Nothing more. They wouldnt do it without being asked and without being paid. Are you saying that the general practice of feta surgery is free? What "lengths" do they go to? Specify.
Heart surgery isn't free either but that doesn't mean that the purpose of surgery isn't to ensure the well-being of humans. I already told you the lengths they will go. The lengths are enough to confer importance, which is value.

They work to fix the medical problem the unborn has, like any medical procedure, including veterinarian ones on other species. It's not "unborn-specific." They arent risking their own lives. They dont stop pregnancy women in public and ask to do ultrasounds to seek medical issues in the unborn.

Doctors do not do fetal surgeries "pro-actively."
Doctors don't do cancer surgeries "pro-actively" either but that doesn't negate the purpose of the surgery. Your point is?


It means the opposite of malfeasance. Dont invent stuff. And since elective abortion is clearly sanctioned by the medical community, your claim is wrong.
Wrong.
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nonmaleficence​

The ethical principle of doing no harm...
Source: https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100237642

malfeasance​

An unlawful and wrongful act (a crime or a tort).
Source: https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100128708


Is it your intention to pose your argument for the medical community? That might be more appropriate.
No, my intention is to pose my argument on here.

Who said it was? Having an abortion is a choice and performing an abortion is a choice. And it's not free from ethical scrutiny...all medical procedures have guidelines and policies and are reviewed for ethical and safety concerns.
Ethical scrutiny is not confined to the medical community.

Those all did harm to people without their consent. The unborn isnt 'people,' and it cannot consent to anything. The woman has the power of consent. The medical community cannot act on or protect the unborn without her consent. If it does, then it is behaving like those that did the syphilis study or forced sterilizations. And as you wrote...that is unethical.
It was unethical due to lack of consent AND violating nonmaleficence.
 
I already cited the AMA principles which apply to all US physicians. Prison hospitals are not an example, the principles are still applied.

You wrote:

The principle of minimizing suffering and protecting individual rights is important but it must be applied consistently across all ethical situations.

The standards you presented are not applied consistently, in prisons, as one example. I asked you to cite this ⬆️ and you did not.

Nobody needs to say. Actions and principles demonstrate it.

Wrong and you havent cited any such principles.

Heart surgery isn't free either but that doesn't mean that the purpose of surgery isn't to ensure the well-being of humans. I already told you the lengths they will go. The lengths are enough to confer importance, which is value.

We're discussing ethics, nobody has questioned the well-being (purpose) that results.

You are trying to use the "lengths" doctors will go to to validate an ethical principle and failing. I asked you to specify some "lengths"...lets see some?

Doctors don't do cancer surgeries "pro-actively" either but that doesn't negate the purpose of the surgery. Your point is?

They also dont initiate them or seek out patients to do them on. They do not extend themselves to women to do fetal surgeries...women come to them. Now...what lengths to doctors go to to perform fetal surgeries?


OK, fine. Abortion does no harm to "anyone". Abortion is a much safer medical procedure for a woman and the medical community is committed to caring for their patients. The woman is the patient in an abortion. The unborn as no status that the law or medical community has recognized. Certainly not one that supersedes the woman's choice.

If you want to discuss the legal status of the unborn, that's a different topic. You are moving the goal posts. That is a basic argument on the abortion issue and as predicted, you hoped you could find some gotcha in comparing the medical community doing fetal surgeries and abortions. You can...they approve of both.

If you want to create some argument for why THEY find it ethical, which obviously they do...ask them. That is self-evident. If you want to move it to the regular old abortion argument about the legal status of the unborn, forget it. We've been thru it a million times.


The Hippocratic Oath says, "First do no harm." And yet the medical community sanctions elective abortion. This is a fact...so if you dont like it...challenge them.

No, my intention is to pose my argument on here.

Then dont ask me what someone else, including the medical community, thinks when they have support elective abortion. They do. If you dont agree with them, talk to them.

Ethical scrutiny is not confined to the medical community.

Never said it was.

It was unethical due to lack of consent AND nonmaleficence.

Yup, those were. Abortion is not. See above. As I suspected, your attempt at a gotcha with fetal surgeries failed. If you want to know why the medical community sanctions abortions...ask them. My answer is they do it because they recognize the life (the entirety of her life everyday), her health, respect the needs and contributions of the woman as more valuable, as an independent individual and moral agent. It's an ethical and moral position. They also recognize and support it being legal based on the lack of legal status of the unborn. If you disagree that's what the medical community 'thinks,' go ask them. I just gave you mine.

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Abortion is the only procedure that goes against the principle of "do no harm" (non-maleficence). Using it to argue that fetuses have no value ignores the consistent ethical framework applied to all other medical procedures involving fetuses, making your argument arbitrary and logically inconsistent. Therefore, the value placed on fetuses by the medical community should be guided by the principle of preserving life, not by the exceptional case of abortion.


Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning necessitates the principle of "do no harm" (non-maleficence) be applied across all medical procedures, including those involving fetuses. Arguing that fetuses have no value based on the practice of abortion without valid justification is an instance of special pleading. Therefore, the value placed on fetal life by the medical community should be guided by the principle of preserving life to ensure that ethical considerations are applied consistently and not arbitrarily devalued by the exceptional nature of abortion.
The - so entitled - exceptional nature of abortion brings about a exceptional complexity of physiological details with ethical considerations that can't easily lend itself to simplistic, idealistic appeals to a consistent "do no harm" precept. You have two lives subsisting simultaneously, one within the womb of the other, both with competing ethical concerns.
The physician's "do no harm" ethical directive for one, inherently comes at the cost of the other.

You've reiterated several declarations yet, you've failed to provide support as to exactly. why the physician's principle to "do no harm", toward incipient life, should be consistently held superlative to a woman's right, volition and physicians' concern for her well-being?
 
The - so entitled - exceptional nature of abortion brings about a exceptional complexity of physiological details with ethical considerations that can't easily lend itself to simplistic, idealistic appeals to a consistent "do no harm" precept. You have two lives subsisting simultaneously, one within the womb of the other, both with competing ethical concerns.
The physician's "do no harm" ethical directive for one, inherently comes at the cost of the other.

You've reiterated several declarations yet, you've failed to provide support as to exactly. why the physician's principle to "do no harm", toward incipient life, should be consistently held superlative to a woman's right, volition and physicians' concern for her well-being?

Your last paragraph is very nicely phrased.

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If the health of the fetus is important enough to justify fetal surgery with its risks to the mother then it demonstrates a significant valuation of fetal health by the medical community. Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning should require that this high value placed on fetal health be considered in other decisions affecting the fetus such as abortion. The health of the fetus should also be taken into consideration when it comes to abortion by the medical community.
Once again I find myself confounded trying to figure out exactly how the hell right wingers think abortion decisions are made.
 
Already answered multiple times. The mother's volition or consent doesn't change the purpose of surgery as sanctioned by the medical community:
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Do you agree that no member of the medical community sanctions such a surgery on a non-consenting woman?
 
Once again I find myself confounded trying to figure out exactly how the hell right wingers think abortion decisions are made.
I find myself confounded trying to figure out exactly how the hell left wingers think abortion isn't murder.

Do you agree that no member of the medical community sanctions such a surgery on a non-consenting woman?
Yes, and your point is?
 
I find myself confounded trying to figure out exactly how the hell left wingers think abortion isn't murder.

Maybe ask the medical community...you've been discussing their "ethics" this entire time. Why dont they consider it murder?

Yes, and your point is?

I've answered that before but I'll let @Deuce.

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The - so entitled - exceptional nature of abortion brings about a exceptional complexity of physiological details with ethical considerations that can't easily lend itself to simplistic, idealistic appeals to a consistent "do no harm" precept.
The principle of "do no harm" is not about simplicity but about consistency in medical ethics. The principle is applied across various medical situations with different complexities.

You have two lives subsisting simultaneously, one within the womb of the other, both with competing ethical concerns.
The physician's "do no harm" ethical directive for one, inherently comes at the cost of the other.
False dichotomy. You falsely imply that valuing the fetus's health always conflicts with valuing the mother's health, which is not the case. As an example, fetal surgery is undertaken to improve the health outcomes of the fetus while still considering the mother's health. The medical community balances these interests rather than prioritizing one absolutely over the other. Most people who get abortions do so for socioeconomic reasons, not for health reasons.

You've reiterated several declarations yet, you've failed to provide support as to exactly. why the physician's principle to "do no harm", toward incipient life, should be consistently held superlative to a woman's right, volition and physicians' concern for her well-being?
Your question suggests that there is a blanket prioritization of fetal health over the mother's, which is not true. The principle of "do no harm" applies to BOTH the fetus and the mother. In the case of abortion, the decision ought to involve weighing the health and rights of both the mother and fetus.

Medical ethics consistently involves complex decision-making and the principle of "do no harm" guides these decisions by striving to balance the health of all patients involved. This consistency should extend to all procedures, including abortion, unless a clear and rational basis is provided for treating it as an exception, which your argument lacks.

This would indicate that they value a woman's right to medical decisions regarding her body more than they value the life of the fetus.
No, it indicates that they value the consent from all patients involved in a medical decision. If a woman denies consent for fetal surgery, it means that the surgery can't be performed because it involves her body, not because the fetus’s wellbeing is disregarded. This is to prevent harm or a violation of autonomy from being done to the woman without her agreement and not to devalue the fetus's wellbeing.

In the case of fetal surgery, both the mother and the fetus are patients. The fetus is a patient because it's subject to surgery. As mentioned above, since the procedure involves the mother's body, her consent is also required. No medical procedure can proceed on her body without her informed consent.

When it comes to consent from the fetus, the fetus can't provide informed consent. In medical ethics, when a patient can't give consent, the principle of implied consent is applied. This means the procedure must be in the best interest of the patient. In cases where the fetus's wellbeing is the focus, such as fetal surgery to correct a congenital issue, the implied consent is assumed to be in favor of the procedure because it aims to improve the fetus's health and chances of survival.

However, in the case of abortion, the situation is completely different. Abortion is not aimed at improving the health of the fetus but instead killing the fetus. If we were to apply the principle of implied consent for the fetus then it would suggest denying the procedure since abortion is not in the interest of the fetus's survival.

In summary, consent is valued more than wellbeing, but it does not extend to causing harm to others. Consent can justify actions involving the consenting individual's own body and wellbeing, but it does not extend to permitting harmful actions against other individuals.
 
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The principle of "do no harm" is not about simplicity but about consistency in medical ethics. The principle is applied across various medical situations with different complexities.


False dichotomy. You falsely imply that valuing the fetus's health always conflicts with valuing the mother's health, which is not the case. As an example, fetal surgery is undertaken to improve the health outcomes of the fetus while still considering the mother's health. The medical community balances these interests rather than prioritizing one absolutely over the other. Most people who get abortions do so for socioeconomic reasons, not for health reasons.


Your question suggests that there is a blanket prioritization of fetal health over the mother's, which is not true. The principle of "do no harm" applies to BOTH the fetus and the mother. In the case of abortion, the decision ought to involve weighing the health and rights of both the mother and fetus.

Medical ethics consistently involves complex decision-making and the principle of "do no harm" guides these decisions by striving to balance the health of all patients involved. This consistency should extend to all procedures, including abortion, unless a clear and rational basis is provided for treating it as an exception, which your argument lacks.


No, it indicates that they value the consent from all patients involved in a medical decision. If a woman denies consent for fetal surgery, it means that the surgery can't be performed because it involves her body, not because the fetus’s wellbeing is disregarded. This is to prevent harm from being done to the woman without her agreement and not to devalue the fetus's wellbeing.

In the case of fetal surgery, both the mother and the fetus are patients. The fetus is a patient because it's subject to surgery. As mentioned above, since the procedure involves the mother's body, her consent is also required. No medical procedure can proceed on her body without her informed consent.

When it comes to consent from the fetus, the fetus can't provide informed consent. In medical ethics, when a patient can't give consent, the principle of implied consent is applied. This means the procedure must be in the best interest of the patient. In cases where the fetus's wellbeing is the focus, such as fetal surgery to correct a congenital issue, the implied consent is assumed to be in favor of the procedure because it aims to improve the fetus's health and chances of survival.

However, in the case of abortion, the situation is completely different. Abortion is not aimed at improving the health of the fetus but instead killing the fetus. If we were to apply the principle of implied consent for the fetus then it would suggest denying the procedure since abortion is not in the interest of the fetus's survival.

In summary, consent is valued more than wellbeing, but it does not extend to causing harm to others. Consent can justify actions involving the consenting individual's own body and wellbeing, but it does not extend to permitting harmful actions against other individuals.

That's all your personal opinion, of course. After all the research you've done and citations you presented...you know that 'the medical community' obviously does not agree with you or your characterizations or your statements about "ethical consistency." At this point, you should either blog it or address the medical community itself.

Btw, when the patient cannot consent, their legal representative does. That's the woman gestating the unborn. The "principle of implied consent" does not apply unless the woman is unconscious and has no legal representative of her own. She consents...either to fetal surgery, or to abortion.

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When it comes to consent from the fetus, the fetus can't provide informed consent. In medical ethics, when a patient can't give consent, the principle of implied consent is applied. This means the procedure must be in the best interest of the patient. In cases where the fetus's wellbeing is the focus, such as fetal surgery to correct a congenital issue, the implied consent is assumed to be in favor of the procedure because it aims to improve the fetus's health and chances of survival.

However, in the case of abortion, the situation is completely different. Abortion is not aimed at improving the health of the fetus but instead killing the fetus. If we were to apply the principle of implied consent for the fetus then it would suggest denying the procedure since abortion is not in the interest of the fetus's survival.
And since this is not how reality turns out, we can conclude that the fetus' survival is not prioritized. The logic you present does not reflect what actually happens, meaning there is clearly a hole in your logic. Do you acknowledge this?
 
The principle of "do no harm" is not about simplicity but about consistency in medical ethics. The principle is applied across various medical situations with different complexities.


False dichotomy. You falsely imply that valuing the fetus's health always conflicts with valuing the mother's health, which is not the case. As an example, fetal surgery is undertaken to improve the health outcomes of the fetus while still considering the mother's health. The medical community balances these interests rather than prioritizing one absolutely over the other. Most people who get abortions do so for socioeconomic reasons, not for health reasons.
In case of abortion, (where the woman desires to end her pregnancy) that's precisely the case; it's simply a reflection of reality. Your prescriptive (as opposed to descriptive) declaration is a mere subjective opinion.
 
That's all your personal opinion, of course. After all the research you've done and citations you presented...you know that 'the medical community' obviously does not agree with you or your characterizations or your statements about "ethical consistency." At this point, you should either blog it or address the medical community itself.

Btw, when the patient cannot consent, their legal representative does. That's the woman gestating the unborn. The "principle of implied consent" does not apply unless the woman is unconscious and has no legal representative of her own. She consents...either to fetal surgery, or to abortion.
The arguments I presented are based on logical reasoning and widely accepted medical/ethical frameworks, not personal opinion.

Imagine a scenario where a patient consents to be killed by a specific method, such as being shot with an AR-15. Even with consent, such an act would be unethical and immoral because it involves causing intentional harm and death. The same principle applies to medical procedures. Just because a patient or their legal representative consents to a harmful procedure does not make it ethically or morally right.

And since this is not how reality turns out, we can conclude that the fetus' survival is not prioritized. The logic you present does not reflect what actually happens, meaning there is clearly a hole in your logic. Do you acknowledge this?
No I don't acknowledge this because I've been unable to see the hole in my logic. Bear in mind I used the word SUGGEST in the last sentence. Perhaps the medical community has a hole in their logic or at least is not consistent/arbitrary in apply principles. If I have a hole in my logic then you should be able to articulate it.

In case of abortion, (where the woman desires to end her pregnancy) that's precisely the case; it's simply a reflection of reality. Your prescriptive (as opposed to descriptive) declaration is a mere subjective opinion.
Polls and studies consistently show that the majority of women who seek abortions do so for socioeconomic reasons. That's reality.

Also I need clarification from you. Why would health risk justify abortion? Do these health risks need to be potential health risks or actualized health risks?

If there is a 0.1% chance that the driver in a car might lose control and hit you, you shouldn't get to pull out a gun and kill the driver to eliminate the threat, right? Well the health risk from pregnancy is about the same, why would you treat the risk of health differently in the context of pregnancy verses a car colliding into you?
 
The arguments I presented are based on logical reasoning and widely accepted medical/ethical frameworks, not personal opinion.

And yet, the medical community considers elective abortion ethical and performs it. So this ⬆️is a non-answer. You were asked to cite otherwise not invent more fantasies. ⬇️

Imagine a scenario where a patient consents to be killed by a specific method, such as being shot with an AR-15. Even with consent, such an act would be unethical and immoral because it involves causing intentional harm and death. The same principle applies to medical procedures. Just because a patient or their legal representative consents to a harmful procedure does not make it ethically or morally right.

No. I dont have to...you have to explain why the medical community disagrees with YOU that elective abortion is unethical. Because...they dont.

☮️🇺🇸☮️
 
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