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European leaders unite behind Ukraine following Trump-Zelenskyy confrontation

trixare4kids said:
They don't care that we're broke, because orange man very, very bad.
We are not putting any more money into a winless war. Nothing more. Not. a. thing.
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Looking at this war from a win/loss, black/white perspective is simple thinking. It's complicated. And it's not inconceivable that Ukraine could 'win'. Russia has economic problems. If that continues, they might be willing to give Ukraine some portion of their takings for the needed economic relief.
 
The Euro countries should have done this all along. Instead they kept looking at Biden and saying, "You can do this, right? "
 
gbg3 said:
Ludicrous posts like this demonstrate a great deal about lack of control, loss of control, and temper.
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Trump supports calling things ludicrous is ludicrous.

Just stop.
 
He is not on board for Trump's/Putin's peace deal. We don't know exactly what the deal is/was, but I suspect it's something like - let Russia keep the ground they took and give us 50% of the mineral rights and we'll shake hands. Ukraine, you get nothing but an agreement of peace from Russia - which isn't worth shit.
 
I see why you like No. 2. Benefits go to Dear Leader (bragging rights re: mineral rights; there won't be any real benefits until after Trump is dead), Europe gets stuck with the security measures, and Russia walks away with ground gained for a respite, then returns when economically healthier. Good plan for Russia.
 

Until 40 days ago Ukraine was more than a friendly nation, it was a European partner aspiring to full and formal allied status.

Ukraine was not wishing to fight a proxy war, but a war of national defense and liberation from Russian brutality, occupation, and annexation.

Pause for a moment. Let this sink in as an analogy. The raped are the innocent. The rapist is the guilty. Women and men know this simple truth. This isn't disputable. You've always impressed me as a moral person, so you know that, so let's move on.

The question for the US and Nato in February of 2022 was a) is it tolerable to accommodate this aggression in the 21st century. and b) does this represent a major threat to other nations, particularly to those whose values and economies are heavily intertwined?

The answer is no, it was not and is not tolerable AND yes, it did and does represent a major threat to the west, even to the well-known neutrals and historically raped of Finland and Sweden, who immediately sought NATO entry.

Pause for a moment. Let this sink in. A serial rapist and looters are likely to continue. Communities band together to stop such scum from raping and robbing them. There are always a few hermits, anti-social types, and macho men who are indifferent to rapists and looters and brag they are not worried cause it won't ever affect them - you are not like them.

So then, we assume that you are a moral person and not on the side of the rapist Putin and Russia and their hideous savagery, if so, let's discuss how we should have and should now react.

The Biden administration and Nato countries assisted Ukraine for the same reason, to help Ukraine survive and regain its occupied lands from serial criminals. But also, with the side benefit of weakening Russia if the war continued. Formerly and historically neutral countries Sweden and Norway also joined seeing the same threats to, and benefits for, their national security.

Has that worked? Yes, but not nearly as well as hoped. Ukraine, largely due to US and European failures to react promptly and decisively in their aid, still made initial gains but has since been in a war of attrition. At this point both sides appear fragile, with Ukraine looking more fragile than Russia, if only because one of Ukraine's major backers is trying to back out (ie USA).

None the less, the war has seriously eroded Russian cold war stocks of arms (that far exceeded western reserves) and shown their military to be unable to win EXCEPT, perhaps, by attrition facilitated by a failed will of the US leadership.

Even so this has been a wonderfully efficient way to cripple the western hemisphere's greatest serial rapist and looter for negligible costs and little risk.

THEREFORE...

If Ukraine wants to fight on, why stop? Russia is a serial rapist that is isolated, economically teetering, and every day this goes on is a day closer to Putin's political destruction and Russia's containment. The US and Nato don't have to risk a single western life, the cost is very small, moreover, if deftly handled it may secure 25 percent of the world's deposits of rare earth and other minerals for the allied world, especially the US.

Pause here. Think about it. If you truly believe in America first (as most Trumpers claim they do) then putting our needs for secure access to rare earth and related minerals is paramount. But you can't have secure access if Russian claim jumper rapists also want it. The US has to defend Ukraine if it wants to keep it from the only military capable of taking it - Russia

While there has been could be an end in sight there is very little in our national interests nor that of European allies to either force a fragile and unjust conditional surrender upon Ukraine. In fact, its is exceedingly stupid to do so.

Finally, if the US wishes to break the stalemate it has been simple and SHOULD BE even simpler now: stop didling and send Ukraine the same kind of weapons Russia has. Do that and in six months Russia will be the one suing for peace to the benefit of Ukraine, the WEST, and the USA.
 
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Not really, because if Trump's plan is to give the Russians what they want with no concessions, then that won't make much sense for his country.
 
Good! That's precisely what Trump was going for.
 

There is no chance this Congress will approve funds without Trump ordering them to do so. Almost every Republican in Congress who supported Ukraine has become servile yes men to Trump. If Ukraine can survive the next two years, till midterms, there is a good chance the House will flip strongly to Democrats and the Senate GOP majority either made razor thin or made into a minority.

While Trump would still have the power to veto appropriations, the surviving Congressional Republicans know that Trump is a lame duck and no longer necessary to get re-elected in 2028. So there is at least a thin chance Congress could override Trumps veto.

And in 2028, it's almost a given that the GOP will be crushed into bug paste for their blunders.
 
Bullseye said:
Good! That's precisely what Trump was going for.
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Not really. He's been positioning himself to settle the war, and campaigned on that. I don't recall him saying his goal was to let the Europeans take it all over.
 
Well, if you agree those are three basic options for Europe - which one do you think makes the most sense? And if you think there are other options besides what I listed, what are they?
 
ElChupacabra said:
Not really, because if Trump's plan is to give the Russians what they want with no concessions, then that won't make much sense for his country.
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Well Trump hasn't begun to work out details with Putin but certainly if Z thinks Trump has in mind to give Russia all they want, it would make no sense for them to want Trump involved at all.

Trump isn't interested in continuing to support an ongoing war. He wants peace. If Z and Europe want the war to go on, that's their choice and their responsibility/cost. That's up to Z and to Europe.
 
gbg3 said:
Well Trump hasn't begun to work out details with Putin but certainly if Z thinks Trump has in mind to give Russia all they want, it would make no sense for them to want Trump involved at all.
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Yesterday's press conference clown show kind of makes that point.

gbg3 said:
Trump isn't interested in continuing to support an ongoing war. He wants peace. If Z and Europe want the war to go on, that's their choice and their responsibility/cost. That's up to Z and to Europe.
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That looks like that's the way it's going to go, as the US takes a back seat to Russia's interests.
 

Please do.
I'd love to see the rest of the world take Trump & Putin down a notch.....................I'd love it. Step up to the plate...........and Swing batter!

Send your money.............................send your troops.

Let's see how ya'll do.
 
Yes it is. I said nothing like that. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

Again nothing I wrote said anything negative about Ukraine’s accomplishments. So probably just stop with the strawman or you will simply continue to embarrass self.
 

Terrible take. You wouldn't happen to be Mitt Romney in real life would you?
 
I could care less if he trusts Trump. We don’t need Zelensky….he needs the US to keep funding his war. This is about money not peace for Zelensky.
 
holbritter said:
Why do you get to demand everyone else provide proof of something, yet when you are asked, you laugh it off?
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Because I can. I am good with people providing proof or not providing it. If it bothers you. I don’t really care.
 
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