European leaders Spar over Greece Bailout

[mbig]

I thought we had a done-deal.. Greece was going to be supported (fully 'Bailed out' if necessary) and the first tranche of Greek debt sold pretty well.

Apparently not.

European leaders spar over Greece bailout ahead of EU summit / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com
Robert Marquand/March 23, 2010

France, Italy, and Germany are at Loggerheads over a possible Greece bailout ahead of what was to be a routine EU summit this Thursday. Greece has threatened to go to the IMF if the EU can't help with the crisis.

Paris-The Greece debt crisis continues to bring out public and not always amicable efforts among European nations to compromise on a Greece bailout plan, ahead of what was to be a routine EU summit this Thursday – with Germany seeming to hold out on even discussing a crisis that other nations say could harm the euro.

French and Italian leaders are insisting that the Greek debt crisis be discussed – while German Chancellor Angela Merkel insists that Greek leaders have yet to even officially claim that a bailout is needed.

Greek President George Papandreou, meanwhile, is visibly irritated with Ms. Merkel – whose popularity in Germany seems to rise with every “no” to Greek assistance. He is threatening to go to the IMF if the EU can’t help with a crisis that he doesn’t want to call a crisis, for fear of further attacks on Greek market positions.

Mr. Papandreou has made it clear he wishes the EU summit to end with a eurozone package or plan for Greek aid in order to quiet markets....

 

[Djoop]

Greece is in no position to make demands, they lied about their deficit for years. If it were up to me, making idle threats would simply result in a swift kick from the Union.
The ECB can bail them out but no matter how you turn it, Greece is going to have to solve its own mess. They can't expect Europe to pay for Greece's spending problem.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

I want to see all those arguing EU bosses skipping and smiling into the summit building. They wanted economic and political union, selling it to us as a grand utopia in which all nations together can get through any scrape together quite easily.

I want judicial dispensation to accost each one on the way in, fixing them a hard stare, and order with jabbing finger inches away from their noses, "skipping and laughing!"

...And they'd have to DO IT!

 

[mbig]

The First euro 3 Billion of Bonds went well.. But 20-30 Billion are coming due in April and May.
The rubber hits the road soon.

Jim Rogers thinks they should let Greece go bankrupt and it would Help the Euro, not hurt it.
Would give credibility to the currency and not at all break it.
Like letting "Idaho" going bankrupt wouldn't hurt the US Dollar.
He said Greece may want to withdraw from the EU after that (not be kicked out).. so let them.

Bloomberg Interview:
Rogers Says Greece Should Not Be Bailed Out: Video -- GuruFocus.com
-
and CNBC (Incl. Video)
http://www.cnbc.com/id/35906680

[.....]
The euro is Unlikely to still exist as a currency over the longer term, the pound will fall substantially in the next few years and US Treasurys and some real estate in China are the world's two current bubbles, legendary investor Jim Rogers told CNBC.com Wednesday.

"The euro will probably break up in the next 15 to 20 years," Rogers said in an interview. "Don't get me wrong, I own the euro."

"We've had currency unions in history, they didn't survive, this one won't survive either," he explained.

The euro has been under pressure because of Greece's sovereign debt concerns. But European Union finance ministers agreed to bail out Greece if it will need aid because of its growing public debt, which is forecast to exceed 120% of gross domestic product this year.

"If (the euro zone helps) the Greeks, that weakens the fundamentals of the euro," Rogers warned. "As the next government comes to demand concessions, they weaken the currency from within."

"I would let Greece go bankrupt because then everybody will say the euro is a serious currency," he told "Worldwide Exchange."

The UK pounds problems will be caused by Britain's "gigantic debt and huge trade deficit," he said, adding that he doesn't own sterling.

The country's two fortunes – North Sea oil and London's place as a financial hub – are dwindling and there is nothing on the horizon to replace them.

"Most Western currencies, most currencies everywhere are very suspect," Rogers told "Worldwide Exchange."
[.....]

Naturally and still, not liking any Western currencies, he likes commodities, especially agri and metals.
-

 

[gunner]

I want to see all those arguing EU bosses skipping and smiling into the summit building. They wanted economic and political union, selling it to us as a grand utopia in which all nations together can get through any scrape together quite easily.

I have never heard anyone suggest it was going to be easy. Due to the very nature of those involved and the complexity of the actors [nation states] involved, EU processes and policies are generally in a state of flux.

As an example, the Single European Market [SEM] had/has many stages. Initially it was based on the 'four freedoms' [free movement of goods, services, labour and capital] that was pretty much all that bound community partners and this was set out in the treaty of Rome 1957......and as you may,or may not be aware, it continues to this day.

Paul

 

[mbig]

Done?

Eurozone agrees on bailout plan for Greece
Aoife White, AP Thursday March 25, 2010

BRUSSELS (AP) -- Heavily indebted Greece won a major pledge of financial support from the other countries that use the euro and the International Monetary Fund in a deal that aims to halt the government debt crisis undermining Europe's currency union.

The joint eurozone and IMF bailout program comes with strict conditions, making no money available to Greece right now.
It could be tapped only if Greece -- or other financially troubled eurozone members -- cannot raise funds from financial markets and would require the unanimous agreement of the 16 eurozone countries to release the loan funds.

The agreement at a Thursday meeting of European Union leaders was a clear victory for German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who demanded that a rescue for Greece only come when the country runs out of other options. She also insisted that any backstop must include the IMF.

It was also a comedown for the French and the European Central Bank, which had opposed turning to the IMF out of fear it would damage the euro's prestige and show that Europe was unable to solve its own financial woes. The eurozone has never turned to the IMF.

ECB President Jean-Claude Trichet said he had wanted a program that emphasized governments' "maximum responsibility" to limit debt, praising the program as a "workable solution" that would "normally not need to be activated.".....

 

[PeteEU]

The First euro 3 Billion of Bonds went well.. But 20-30 Billion are coming due in April and May.
The rubber hits the road soon.

Jim Rogers thinks they should let Greece go bankrupt and it would Help the Euro, not hurt it.
Would give credibility to the currency and not at all break it.
Like letting "Idaho" going bankrupt wouldn't hurt the US Dollar.
He said Greece may want to withdraw from the EU after that (not be kicked out).. so let them.

Bloomberg Interview:
Rogers Says Greece Should Not Be Bailed Out: Video -- GuruFocus.com
-
and CNBC (Incl. Video)
News Headlines


Naturally and still, not liking any Western currencies, he likes commodities, especially agri and metals.
-

He is a moron. For a so called expert his views are very unrealistic. Bet he has shorted Euros so he is pushing for the Euro to nose dive so he can earn a bundle.

 

[PeteEU]

Done?

Eurozone agrees on bailout plan for Greece
Aoife White, AP Thursday March 25, 2010

Looks so. But as Merkel has stated over and over and over again.. only IF it becomes needed and so far it is not needed. We shall see.

Next target for the speculators and doomsayers.. the UK or US!

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Would British taxpayers be funding a possible bailout?

 

[PeteEU]

Would British taxpayers be funding a possible bailout?

Not through the EU unless the UK agrees to do so. But through the IMF.. kinda since the UK pays dues to the IMF which are used to bail out countries.

But as it has been stated.. this is only IF Greece needs it and so far it does not.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Thanks.

I bet Gordon Brown's got the cheque book on standby already. I'm surprised it hasn't run out of pages yet as, since becoming PM, he's already poured many billions of Pounds into bribing tropical paradises to start 'global cooling', cash and mineral-rich third world dictatorships or Asiatic nations with space and nuclear programmes pleading 'poverty'.

At least this time he'd have a fig leaf of justification in saying "Well when Labour virtually vapourised the economy last time we were in, the IMF helped us out. And you never know, there but for the grace of Gordo....". I just hope he knows what he's doing thinking you can splurge your way through trouble, or at least that's what he told us to do when shopping. (Don't save your money - it doesn't help the fluidity of our economy to have it gathering dust in Nat West, apparently, so spend or be taxed of it!)

Just venting there, excuse me.

 

[mbig]

He is a moron. For a so called expert his views are very unrealistic. Bet he has shorted Euros so he is pushing for the Euro to nose dive so he can earn a bundle.

Jim Rogers is anything but a "moron".

I believe he is short the Euro... and.. SO WHAT.
He is Long wheat too.
One invests on the side of profit, and he is quite public with his opinions and why.

And that's how this "moron" got rich and is one of the most admired investors on the Planet.
-

 

[PeteEU]

Jim Rogers is anything but a "moron".

I believe he is short the Euro... and.. SO WHAT.
He is Long wheat too.
One invests on the side of profit, and he is quite public with his opinions and why.

And that's how this "moron" got rich and is one of the most admired investors on the Planet.
-

Hence he has a vested interest in driving down the Euro.. ups... that is something called bias.. I know you yanks dont understand such things but hey!

 

[mbig]

Hence he has a vested interest in driving down the Euro.. ups... that is something called bias.. I know you yanks dont understand such things but hey!

You've got Cause-and-effect Backwards.
(And this isn't a EUer problem, but clearly poster-specific/obtuse)

He's short BECAUSE he sees fundamental problems.
It's not something he inherited or is stuck with and has to shill.
Get Over it!

If someone wants to short the US dollar because of Our deficits (Or any/all currency in favor of commodities)... Hey, I don't blame them!
It's the right thing to do.
He's been right for years and will be rightER. One can only be thankful he shares his knowledge publicly/always has.
Only a Dolt would take it personally.
-

 

[PeteEU]

You've got Cause-and-effect Backwards.
(And this isn't a EUer problem, but clearly poster-specific/obtuse)

He's short BECAUSE he sees fundamental problems.
It's not something he inherited or is stuck with and has to shill.
Get Over it!

If someone wants to short the US dollar because of Our deficits (Or any/all currency in favor of commodities)... Hey, I don't blame them!
It's the right thing to do.
He's been right for years and will be rightER. One can only be thankful he shares his knowledge publicly/always has.
Only a Dolt would take it personally.
-

So you dont think a well known "economist" with a lot of money in the market... speculating as he is... can not form an opinion based on his personal investments? It happens all the time, and is one of the problems with this whole episode and many others.. including the 150 dollar oil a year ago.

These "talking heads" have a vested interest for either their clients or themselves in a certain outcome and will do anything, even overstating a problem or understating, to gain an advantage.

Now that does not mean I dont agree Greece is a problem, but it is a 2% of the Eurozone.. it would be like Rhode Island brining down the US for god sake.

 

[mbig]

So you dont think a well known "economist" with a lot of money in the market... speculating as he is... can not form an opinion based on his personal investments? It happens all the time, and is one of the problems with this whole episode and many others.. including the 150 dollar oil a year ago.

These "talking heads" have a vested interest for either their clients or themselves in a certain outcome and will do anything, even overstating a problem or understating, to gain an advantage.

Now that does not mean I dont agree Greece is a problem, but it is a 2% of the Eurozone.. it would be like Rhode Island brining down the US for god sake.

As I said, and you have not refuted, he has the position because he believes in it.
Because his beliefs are right so often, he is Asked/Begged to talk on them publicly-- so let's blame him!

And HE said (BEFORE your "Rhode Island"), the EU Should let Greece go because it was like the US letting "Idaho" go Bankrupt/would NOT affect the US currency significantly!
AS I summarized/specifically mentioned in My Post #4
DUH!
He also doesn't like the Pound NOR Dollar.

You really are not only Absurdly Wrong calling him a Moron, but you haven't even read the string and know NOTHING about economics.. just an overly sensitive defender/Euro-Xeno of a system you don't understand as well as he.
I suggest you read and listen to as much of him as you can (at least what I presented) instead of making yourself look stupendously goofy.

His record and success speaks for itself.
-

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I like both Rogers and Soros

But when either talk about currency's in a negative way, expect that both probably have shorted it

I believe they were working together when Soros's Tiger fund shorted the Pound, and helped drive the pound lower (as it was going to move anyway) and they made billions from that move

When Soros was talking down Gold a few months ago, saying it was the ultimate bubble, he was buying gold. He probably bought it cheaper from his talking it down some.

But overall you have to take into consideration their self interest (economic) when ever they are talking about investment opportunities

 

[PeteEU]

As I said, and you have not refuted, he has the position because he believes in it.
Because his beliefs are right so often, he is Asked/Begged to talk on them publicly-- so let's blame him!

And HE said (BEFORE your "Rhode Island"), the EU Should let Greece go because it was like the US letting "Idaho" go Bankrupt/would NOT affect the US currency significantly!
AS I summarized/specifically mentioned in My Post #4
DUH!
He also doesn't like the Pound NOR Dollar.

You really are not only Absurdly Wrong calling him a Moron, but you haven't even read the string and know NOTHING about economics.. just an overly sensitive defender/Euro-Xeno of a system you don't understand as well as he.
I suggest you read and listen to as much of him as you can (at least what I presented) instead of making yourself look stupendously goofy.

His record and success speaks for itself.
-

Yea his record speaks for it self. He is a speculator that uses media manipulation to further his own and that of his customers interests. Hence he is biased. He is no different than George Soros.

 

[jujuman13]

All investors are speculators.
The entire idea of investing in anything is to increase ones holdings.

 

[PeteEU]

All investors are speculators.
The entire idea of investing in anything is to increase ones holdings.

Yea but not all investors/speculators can directly impact the market because of what their opinions are... that is a very big difference.

 

[The Giant Noodle]

Someone better buy someone out or all is lost. I dont understand why Greece isnt stabalised.

 

[PeteEU]

Someone better buy someone out or all is lost. I dont understand why Greece isnt stabalised.

Because they lied for years about their deficit. They need to regain the trust of the markets and the EU and are doing slowly. Their 10 year bond rate is falling constantly.. very slowly but falling. Greece is in no where near defaulting as it stands now and never was, but it is paying a price on its dishonesty in much higher (double) interest rates on its debt and that is damaging in the long run. Hence Greece is trying everything to get that rate down.

 

[Djoop]

I like both Rogers and Soros

But when either talk about currency's in a negative way, expect that both probably have shorted it

I believe they were working together when Soros's Tiger fund shorted the Pound, and helped drive the pound lower (as it was going to move anyway) and they made billions from that move
When Soros was talking down Gold a few months ago, saying it was the ultimate bubble, he was buying gold. He probably bought it cheaper from his talking it down some.

But overall you have to take into consideration their self interest (economic) when ever they are talking about investment opportunities

British banks allowed Soros to borrow 15 billion pounds. He bought dmarks which gave the pound an extra push downwards and he returned the loan. It's an epic story but the pound was coming down anyway, also without Soros his help.
We were talking about another 'moron' (I would love to be one of Pete's morons). Maybe you can explain me how Rogers shorted the Euro, the pound and the dollar.

Some people focus on self interest as if were a bad thing. That's why all those communists become famous investors (sic).
You don't buy gold or currency because Soros/Rogers tells you to, you buy because you believe in the why, the reasoning behind their strategy.

 

[PeteEU]

because you believe in the why, the reasoning behind their strategy.

People base a lot of their buying and selling on what "experts" like these two do. Hence their direct and indirect power to influence the market is far far larger than you dare admit. And they do it often.. voice their "opinions" about things and more than often you can see an effect on the markets especially when more than one "expert" says the same. Does not mean that the "expert" is correct in any way. "Experts" tried to push Spain into the same box as Greece early on and that failed badly because not even the mass media bought into that lie. What it did do, was to push up the interest rate on what Spain can loan for a while and now it is back to its normal low.. lower than the US and UK.

 

[Djoop]

People base a lot of their buying and selling on what "experts" like these two do. Hence their direct and indirect power to influence the market is far far larger than you dare admit. And they do it often.. voice their "opinions" about things and more than often you can see an effect on the markets especially when more than one "expert" says the same. Does not mean that the "expert" is correct in any way. "Experts" tried to push Spain into the same box as Greece early on and that failed badly because not even the mass media bought into that lie. What it did do, was to push up the interest rate on what Spain can loan for a while and now it is back to its normal low.. lower than the US and UK.

Likewise I think you grossly exaggerate the influence anyone could have on these markets. The market for euros is simply too big to make this story stick.
If you have 395 tons of gold lying around and announce a fire sale you can advice people to buy gold but don't expect too much of it.