EU leaders hold out olive branch to Chinese ‘rival’ by saying they want active role in Belt and Road

[joko104]

The US, since China is the economic superpower that is having severe economic problems and the US is the economic superpower that is growing and thriving.

I disagree. Trump is only temporary and the Chinese people won't go into a total meltdown if their economy suffers - while Americans panic easily. Regardless of Trump, more and more Americans - particularly young Americans - intensely believe they were born entitled to everything for free. Chinese are not. China is now more capitalistic than the USA as well. Even our military weapons now contain Chinese components (which we have learn some of which is spyware).

China's manufacturing abilities continue to grow at breakneck speed, while the USA continues to decline. How many Chinese products are on the shelves of American stores - versus American products on shelves for sale in China?

Nor is China facing a social collapse of traditional values nor internally at war with itself. They execute politicians and super rich who commit crimes. We exempt nearly all of them from any real punishment - if any punishment at all. Simply, China is more socially and institutionally stable - while the USA and West increasingly are not.

Sadly, I see the future going China's way, not that of the USA.

 

[Chomsky]

Yeah, I know.

But, you know what I found out recently, no matter what the US$/CDN$ exchange rate is, I can always buy something that is priced at CDN$20.00 for a Canadian $20.00 bill.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if you found out something very similar with respect to the US$/Euro exchange rate.

I can tell you an oddly related story.

While Russia was still the U.S.S.R., somehow McDonald's managed to open a franchise in Moscow! It was the only MickeyDee's in Russia, and it was widely successful! It made the owners bucketfuls of ... get ready ... Rubles! Rubles that could not be changed on any monetary markets!

So after over a year of stratospheric profit in terms of Rubles, they figured-out they could buy commodities within Russia, that could be sold on the world markets for United State's Dollars! And that's what they did to get the money out, after sitting on a pile of Rubles built-up over the first year of very successful operation. I seem to remember they had over the equivalent of $1M in USD.

Crazy story, huh?

 

[Carjosse]

As far as Germany is concerned, yes. I see Germany as being one of the greatest long term threats to the USA and world - again. The Muslim influence in Germany is growing. Although a minority now, their militancy and lack of integration into German secular society - as white Germans stopped having children and Muslims are at twice the rate - means ultimately Germany will become a Muslim country as simple math.

But we know for Germany's past it does not take a majority to take over Germany - only a violent, militant minority. At not time were more than 10% of Germans NAZIs, yet by violence and terrorism the took over - and started another massive world war.

This would combine with white German secularists mostly being elderly, while most non-secular Muslims will be young. It is very easy math. Have 2 population groups. One reduces in numbers 50% each generation (as white secular Germans are) and the other doubles their population each generation. At existing numbers, within 4 generations the majority of Germans will be non-white anti-secular Muslims (unless they abandon their religion and so far none are).

Unlike other Islamic theocratic countries, Germany is highly technologically advanced with massive manufacturing ability. Just like before WW2, Germany would switch to a massive war industry including nuclear, biological and chemical weapons with delivery systems as good as ours - and with equal quality conventional weapons.

Germany started WW1. Germany started WW2. Germany and WW1 created communist Russia. WW2 created the USSR.

We should consider our bases there originally to occupy Germany as still there to occupy Germany. I hope we don't have to kick Germany's ass again because if we do next time it will cost at least a couple billion lives.

Conspiracy theories is further down.

 

[Chomsky]

I disagree. Trump is only temporary and the Chinese people won't go into a total meltdown if their economy suffers - while Americans panic easily. Regardless of Trump, more and more Americans - particularly young Americans - intensely believe they were born entitled to everything for free. Chinese are not. China is now more capitalistic than the USA as well. Even our military weapons now contain Chinese components (which we have learn some of which is spyware).

China's manufacturing abilities continue to grow at breakneck speed, while the USA continues to decline. How many Chinese products are on the shelves of American stores - versus American products on shelves for sale in China?

Nor is China facing a social collapse of traditional values nor internally at war with itself. They execute politicians and super rich who commit crimes. We exempt nearly all of them from any real punishment - if any punishment at all. Simply, China is more socially and institutionally stable - while the USA and West increasingly are not.

Sadly, I see the future going China's way, not that of the USA.

I see it pretty much the same, JoKo. Sad to say.

I see a wildcard, though. There is no way China can bring 1.4B souls into the middle-class. However, most of China's populace is becoming wired-in and as an effect they are becoming aware of what's going-on around them (within China and the world outside).

Will those impoverished and left outside the Chinese wealth centers & circles, be content as they continue becoming aware of the huge discrepancies within their country and their relation with the rest of the world? If not, it's possible China implodes from within.

 

[Carjosse]

Maybe, maybe not.

But the way I see it: There's an economic superpower on the rise, making friendly overtures; and an economic superpower in decline, seemingly reducing it's leadership role and no longer being a reliable partner. Which one seems to have the better long-term potential to align with?

I still think it is much better idea to stay away from the power (China) that actively seeks to undermine your system of government, values, and economy.

 

[Chomsky]

The US, since China is the economic superpower that is having severe economic problems and the US is the economic superpower that is growing and thriving.

This just isn't true. The long-term trajectory for each country is exactly as I described.

 

[Chomsky]

I still think it is much better idea to stay away from the power (China) that actively seeks to undermine your system of government, values, and economy.

Maybe. But remember,

"people have friends; countries have interests"

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Trump hasn't said anything like what you are saying.

Mr. Trump has only threatened economic reprisal against the Europeans if they don't do what he tells them to do.

Some people do NOT need everything spelled out to them in words of two syllables or less that are assembled into simple declarative sentences with no subordinate or dependent clauses.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

As far as Germany is concerned, yes. I see Germany as being one of the greatest long term threats to the USA and world - again. The Muslim influence in Germany is growing. Although a minority now, their militancy and lack of integration into German secular society - as white Germans stopped having children and Muslims are at twice the rate - means ultimately Germany will become a Muslim country as simple math.

But we know for Germany's past it does not take a majority to take over Germany - only a violent, militant minority. At not time were more than 10% of Germans NAZIs, yet by violence and terrorism the took over - and started another massive world war.

In contrast, in 2017 the membership of the Republican party in the US stood at ‎32,807,417 (10.07% of the US population) and the membership of the Democratic Party in the US stood at 44,706,349 (13.73% of the US population)

This would combine with white German secularists mostly being elderly, while most non-secular Muslims will be young. It is very easy math. Have 2 population groups. One reduces in numbers 50% each generation (as white secular Germans are) and the other doubles their population each generation. At existing numbers, within 4 generations the majority of Germans will be non-white anti-secular Muslims (unless they abandon their religion and so far none are).

Well then, the "obvious course of action", if the Germans won't do it for themselves, is for the United States of America to implement "The Final Solution to the Muslim Problem" - isn't it?

Unlike other Islamic theocratic countries, Germany is highly technologically advanced with massive manufacturing ability. Just like before WW2, Germany would switch to a massive war industry including nuclear, biological and chemical weapons with delivery systems as good as ours - and with equal quality conventional weapons.

Quite correct. It's time that the US got off its butt and implemented the Morgenthau Plan. BUT there is absolutely no reason to stop with Germany since every other country in the world has the potential capacity to produce weapons with which the United States of America could theoretically be attacked, so it's time for the US to cleanse the world of ALL threats by forcing every other country to completely dismantle their industrial base AND forbidding any education beyond the level needed to conduct simple barter transactions.

Right?

Germany started WW1. Germany started WW2. Germany and WW1 created communist Russia. WW2 created the USSR.

And your point would be - what? That Germans all bear "Blutschuld" and therefore Germany should be reduced to a pastoral state?

We should consider our bases there originally to occupy Germany as still there to occupy Germany. I hope we don't have to kick Germany's ass again because if we do next time it will cost at least a couple billion lives.

Class will now stand for three choruses of "America, America, over everything".

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I disagree. Trump is only temporary and the Chinese people won't go into a total meltdown if their economy suffers - while Americans panic easily. Regardless of Trump, more and more Americans - particularly young Americans - intensely believe they were born entitled to everything for free. Chinese are not. China is now more capitalistic than the USA as well. Even our military weapons now contain Chinese components (which we have learn some of which is spyware).

China's manufacturing abilities continue to grow at breakneck speed, while the USA continues to decline. How many Chinese products are on the shelves of American stores - versus American products on shelves for sale in China?

Nor is China facing a social collapse of traditional values nor internally at war with itself. They execute politicians and super rich who commit crimes. We exempt nearly all of them from any real punishment - if any punishment at all. Simply, China is more socially and institutionally stable - while the USA and West increasingly are not.

Sadly, I see the future going China's way, not that of the USA.

So you would prefer to see a world in which the rich and powerful can commit crimes with impunity rather than being subject to the same laws as everyone else is?

Or is it that you would prefer to see a world where every country is "socially unstable" rather than a world where every country is "socially stable"?

A "socially stable" United States of America does NOT have to be identical to a "socially stable" China, but an America where the government actually acted to implement "The American Dream" and "The American Ideal" is MUCH more likely to be "socially stable" than one which has "a government of the people by the elite and for the elite".

A lot of Americans look at China, see a country where people do not eat meat at at least 10 meals per week and think "Gosh what a terribly backwards and impoverished country.".

A lot of Chinese look at China, see a country where people eat meat at least three times more per week than their parents did and think "Gosh what a lot of progress we have made, we must work harder to make more.".

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I can tell you an oddly related story.

While Russia was still the U.S.S.R., somehow McDonald's managed to open a franchise in Moscow! It was the only MickeyDee's in Russia, and it was widely successful! It made the owners bucketfuls of ... get ready ... Rubles! Rubles that could not be changed on any monetary markets!

So after over a year of stratospheric profit in terms of Rubles, they figured-out they could buy commodities within Russia, that could be sold on the world markets for United State's Dollars! And that's what they did to get the money out, after sitting on a pile of Rubles built-up over the first year of very successful operation. I seem to remember they had over the equivalent of $1M in USD.

Crazy story, huh?

I'll bet that someone will come along and call that something like "crass capitalist exploitation of the oppressed Russian workers".

 

[noonereal]

When are those so-called "Europeans" going to learn that they are NOT ALLOWED to do something if Mr. Trump tells them not to do it?

American conquered Europe in 1918, then made the mistake of going home. America conquered Europe in 1945, then made the mistake of going home. Maybe it's time for America to conquer Europe again and THIS TIME NOT making the mistake of going home.

Right?
[/INDENT]

Trump is leaving opportunity all over the world for China and China is capitalizing.

The Trump presidency has benefited China, Russia and North Korea.

and still, his minions worship him.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I still think it is much better idea to stay away from the power (China) that actively seeks to undermine your system of government, values, and economy.

If only two out of three are required, then it is time for the United States of America to get REALLY serious about isolating itself from every country in the world.

Possibly the logical first step would be to change the name of the country to "Terra Incognita" as that would entail the fewest adjustments to the maps of the world (and it also has a valid historical precedent).

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

This just isn't true. The long-term trajectory for each country is exactly as I described.

You are, as usual, completely wrong.

The PRC is struggling to keep its GDP growth rate above 6% per year.

The US is successful at keeping its GDP growth rate above 2.5% per year.

[The above analysis originated by "Devoted Online Lovers of Trump" Inc. (a wholly owned subsidiary of "Trump U.").]

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Trump is leaving opportunity all over the world for China and China is capitalizing.

The Trump presidency has benefited China, Russia and North Korea.

and still, his minions worship him.

Do you think that it has something to do with his magical orange hair?

 

[Carjosse]

If only two out of three are required, then it is time for the United States of America to get REALLY serious about isolating itself from every country in the world.

Possibly the logical first step would be to change the name of the country to "Terra Incognita" as that would entail the fewest adjustments to the maps of the world (and it also has a valid historical precedent).

They really are trying to undermine everything I mentioned. Chinese actions even forced Australia to pass a foreign agents act to counter their influence, Chinese agents were suing critics of the regime into silence and bribing Australian lawmakers. Chinese students stifling debate and snitching on their fellow Chinese, I think all students involved in that behavior should be immediately deported and banned from ever entering the country again. Chinese agents often steal Western intellectual property and other secrets, especially in defense.

In Canada the CCP tried to gain influence by trying to spread propaganda in Toronto schools through the CCP-funded Confucius Institutes but because of uproar it was stopped and an arrests were made of a TDSB administrator for taking bribes. And recently the Chinese tried to silence and harass two anti-CCP activists on Canadian campuses.

I think Canada and all Western countries needs to start being much more careful in what Chinese nationals are allowed to enter and take measures to prevent their influence like banning Confucius Institutes and other CCP-funded organizations.

 

[Chomsky]

You are, as usual, completely wrong.

The PRC is struggling to keep its GDP growth rate above 6% per year.

Yeah, that's the perspective many lose: China's "slowing economy" means slowing from 7% to 6%! :doh

The US is successful at keeping its GDP growth rate above 2.5% per year.

[The above analysis originated by "Devoted Online Lovers of Trump" Inc. (a wholly owned subsidiary of "Trump U.").]

Right. Looks like 2018 Q4 is being revised to around 2.2%, with 2019 perhaps coming in at a very sluggish 1.4%.

It's only been two quarters, so we'll have to see if it's a trend. We can't discount Trump's shutdown and the absolutely horrid weather early this year.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

They really are trying to undermine everything I mentioned. Chinese actions even forced Australia to pass a foreign agents act to counter their influence, Chinese agents were suing critics of the regime into silence and bribing Australian lawmakers. Chinese students stifling debate and snitching on their fellow Chinese, I think all students involved in that behavior should be immediately deported and banned from ever entering the country again. Chinese agents often steal Western intellectual property and other secrets, especially in defense.

In Canada the CCP tried to gain influence by trying to spread propaganda in Toronto schools through the CCP-funded Confucius Institutes but because of uproar it was stopped and an arrests were made of a TDSB administrator for taking bribes. And recently the Chinese tried to silence and harass two anti-CCP activists on Canadian campuses.

Thanks for the interesting article ("Australian Law Targets Foreign Interference. China Is Not Pleased."). I did notice that, according to the article, the new laws are very similar to laws that the US passed right after the WTC/Pentagon mass murders (in some areas going further, and in others not going as far).

I have no doubts whatsoever the "Chinese agents often steal Western intellectual property" however such practices are sanctified by the historical practices of other countries.

As for the Confucius Institute, you might find "Confucius Institutes: China’s benign outreach or something more sinister?" interesting. Are they government supported" Yes they are. Are they any more evilly invidious that "Voice of America" or "Freedom Network"? Probably not.

As far as your like to "China denies role in backlash against Tibetan student's election at U of T" (which you characterized as "the Chinese tried to silence and harass" it doesn't say that at all. What it does say is that "some (Chinese dissidents) have accused the Chinese government of being behind" certain actions.

I don't know about you, but I generally work on the theory that "The fact that an allegation has been made DOES NOT establish guilt - no matter how much I might want the allegation to be true.".

I think Canada and all Western countries needs to start being much more careful in what Chinese nationals are allowed to enter and take measures to prevent their influence like banning Confucius Institutes and other CCP-funded organizations.

Now if you had said "I think that ALL COUNTRIES need to start being much more careful in which nationals from other countries are allowed to enter and to take measures to ensure that those nationals from other countries do not misrepresent whose interests they are actually promoting." I would have agreed with you.

However, what you propose is ideological censorship AND turning away from recognizing reality. THAT, I cannot endorse.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Yeah, that's the perspective many lose: China's "slowing economy" means slowing from 7% to 6%! :doh

Right. Looks like 2018 Q4 is being revised to around 2.2%, with 2019 perhaps coming in at a very sluggish 1.4%.

It's only been two quarters, so we'll have to see if it's a trend. We can't discount Trump's shutdown and the absolutely horrid weather early this year.

Mr. Trump's so-called "shutdown" had absolutely no effect whatsoever, it was a brilliant financial manoeuvre designed to reduce the cost of running the US government and succeeded better than any other attempt to reduce the cost of running the US in the history of the United States of America.

The "absolutely horrid weather", of course, is all Obama/Clinton's fault.

At least that's what the latest bulletin from "Devoted Online Lovers of Trump" Inc. (a wholly owned subsidiary of "Trump U.") tells me.

 

[PeteEU]

I always find it hilarious about the US crying about the supposed theft of intellectual property by others...how on earth do you think the US became so powerful in the first place? Stealing intellectual property from the British and others... ups!

 

[Chomsky]

Mr. Trump's so-called "shutdown" had absolutely no effect whatsoever, it was a brilliant financial manoeuvre designed to reduce the cost of running the US government and succeeded better than any other attempt to reduce the cost of running the US in the history of the United States of America.

The "absolutely horrid weather", of course, is all Obama/Clinton's fault.

At least that's what the latest bulletin from "Devoted Online Lovers of Trump" Inc. (a wholly owned subsidiary of "Trump U.") tells me.

That last line just made me think of how much better America is that Trump U never took off! :2razz:

 

[Carjosse]

I always find it hilarious about the US crying about the supposed theft of intellectual property by others...how on earth do you think the US became so powerful in the first place? Stealing intellectual property from the British and others... ups!

So that justifies what the Chinese are doing? It is not just the Americans having their intellectual property stolen by the Chinese.

 

[Carjosse]

Thanks for the interesting article ("Australian Law Targets Foreign Interference. China Is Not Pleased."). I did notice that, according to the article, the new laws are very similar to laws that the US passed right after the WTC/Pentagon mass murders (in some areas going further, and in others not going as far).

I have no doubts whatsoever the "Chinese agents often steal Western intellectual property" however such practices are sanctified by the historical practices of other countries.

As for the Confucius Institute, you might find "Confucius Institutes: China’s benign outreach or something more sinister?" interesting. Are they government supported" Yes they are. Are they any more evilly invidious that "Voice of America" or "Freedom Network"? Probably not.

As far as your like to "China denies role in backlash against Tibetan student's election at U of T" (which you characterized as "the Chinese tried to silence and harass" it doesn't say that at all. What it does say is that "some (Chinese dissidents) have accused the Chinese government of being behind" certain actions.

I don't know about you, but I generally work on the theory that "The fact that an allegation has been made DOES NOT establish guilt - no matter how much I might want the allegation to be true.".



Now if you had said "I think that ALL COUNTRIES need to start being much more careful in which nationals from other countries are allowed to enter and to take measures to ensure that those nationals from other countries do not misrepresent whose interests they are actually promoting." I would have agreed with you.

However, what you propose is ideological censorship AND turning away from recognizing reality. THAT, I cannot endorse.

You don't see the problem with allowing the Chinese to steal from us, infect our children with CCP propaganda, and harass critics of their regime? They want to teach our children that Mao was anything other than a mass murderer and that democracy is a failure. Should we start allowing Nazis and Holocaust deniers into our schools too? It is what China does, we should not be encouraging it, we should be taking action against China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and every other country daring to do undermine us.

How is fighting the influence of foreign agents censorship?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Note the history part of that. Why do you support the CCP? The Chinese murder their own citizens, help other dictators do the same, all while trying to undermine Western democracy and values.

History part?

The US is doing that to this day. What do you think the World Bank, and IMF have done over the last 60 years, or the invasion of Iraq, various government overthrows, and support of dictators by the US has and is doing.

 

[PeteEU]

So that justifies what the Chinese are doing? It is not just the Americans having their intellectual property stolen by the Chinese.

Well lets look at this way.. what is the reason that American "intellectual property" is being stolen? More than often, lack of access to said intellectual property in a legal and financially viable way.

But yea, in many ways it does somewhat justify it in a hilarious way, that people "steal" American ****, when that is what Americans have been doing for a long while. After all, you "borrowed" tech for your rockets to the moon, got the Brits to "give" you jet engine tech and radar and before that you stole hand over fist from Germany, UK, France and so on, to basically found your nations wealth.

Also it is hilarious the US claims theft of intellectual property, when most of the **** Americans buy is made in... China. So you send over specs and designs and what not to China so you can get made cheaply, and you some how expect that wont be copied/stolen/liberated? Seriously?