EU fines Microsoft record $1.4bn

[Joby]

Microsoft has been fined a record $1.4bn by the European commission for abusing its dominant position in the software market.

The commission said the US software company had defied its 2004 order to provide information so that rival programmes worked better with Microsoft products and had instead charged high royalties for the details.

Neelie Kroes, competition commissioner, said: "Microsoft was the first company in 50 years of EU competition policy that the Commission has had to fine for failure to comply with an antitrust decision.

This would never have happened if Bill Gates was French!

Al Jazeera English - News - Eu Fines Microsoft Record $1.4Bn

 

[bub]

This would never have happened if Bill Gates was French!

Al Jazeera English - News - Eu Fines Microsoft Record $1.4Bn

why?
- the French do not decide what the European Commission says (you forget the 26 other countries)
- Microsoft could have been Nepalese or South African, that does not change the fact that they don't respect the law

 

[Joby]

why?
- the French do not decide what the European Commission says (you forget the 26 other countries)

Just a joke.

- Microsoft could have been Nepalese or South African, that does not change the fact that they don't respect the law

The law that says Microsoft has to give up information on their products to it's competitors so they'll be better able to compete against Microsoft's products.

Whatever, it's just the $1.4 Billion that caught my eye. It's not like the EU stumbled in on Microsoft employing 5 year-olds in a Bulgarian sweat-shop.

 

[PeteEU]

Microsoft is getting off easy.

 

[rathi]

There are 2 requirement for illegal monopoly behavior. \

1) You must have a large portion of marketshare.

2) You must leverage the marketshare to lock in other products.
Sun Microsystems may sell almost all smartcard software, but they don't leverage that for anything else. Apple may bundle hardware software and lock in all sorts of stuff, but they don't have a monopoly. Microsoft has a monopoly and chooses to lock in media player, internet explorer and other programs. They have expressly written their operating system in such a fashion that interferes with 3rd parties trying to put programs on the windows OS. That a clear example of using the operating to leverage the other programs, which is clearly illegal in both the EU and U.S. Microsoft was convicted of similar charges in the U.S. but the DOJ didn't throw down a real sentence of punishment.

The reason why the fine is so high is because of the vast revenue and profits of microsoft. Anything less they will simply write off as overhead and continue to ignore the law. If they really had courage they would tell microsoft to either stop this behavior or get their copyrights revoked or institute exponentially increasing fines. This is still only a small cut into their profits and could easily just be ignored.

 

[RatedPanda]

I love most my Microsoft products, but I'm glad this happened. I agree their trying to establish a monopoly, but I'm not sure the fine was high enough considering their profits.

 

[Gipper]

- Microsoft could have been Nepalese or South African, that does not change the fact that they don't respect the law

It's a bullshit law anyways. America already learned about the pitfalls of extreme protectionism back in the 80s when we had to fend off the Japanese threat. Seems the EU is still 25 years behind.

I defend their right to effectively blockade third party systems that can bypass MS programs. As the owners of said intellectual property, they have that right. Because of this, they can encourage European OS providers to invest in R&D to either find a loophole or to make their own systems and programs. You know, I don't hear Steven Jobs bellyaching like this, and we all know that Macs, for the longest time, pretty much couldn't run a damn thing you could run on your PC.

This is just Europe recognizing their own mediocrity and making an attempt to pick up their ball and go home, being the inferior trash they are. This is why they'll never be anything better than a "fast follower" in the global information market...and even that's only if southeast Asia falls asleep.

Xenophobia. Jealousy. European trademarks.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

But didn't USA already in the late 19:th learn the big problems arising from private monopolies?

 

[PeteEU]

It's a bullshit law anyways. America already learned about the pitfalls of extreme protectionism back in the 80s when we had to fend off the Japanese threat. Seems the EU is still 25 years behind.

LOL it has nothing to do with protectionism. In fact the laws that were used, were first put in place in the US to break up huge monopolies that used very dirty tricks (even murder) to stay on top. Ever heard of Standard Oil, AT&T and all the other monopolies that have been broken up in part or totaly by the US over the years?

I defend their right to effectively blockade third party systems that can bypass MS programs. As the owners of said intellectual property, they have that right.

Are you talking about cracking microsoft programs? If so, thats not what this is about. Its about giving access to 3rd party software makers to make thier programs better integrated into Windows, and not using Windows as way to keep other software makers out of the market.

Let me give you and example. Would you find it okay if Microsoft put a block in Windows so that Realmedia Player or Winamp did not work? I am not saying that they have, but they have prevented these 2 AMERICAN companies from gaining access to Windows code that could better integrate thier software into Windows. The same goes for Firefox and Opera browsers.

Because of this, they can encourage European OS providers to invest in R&D to either find a loophole or to make their own systems and programs.

You are clueless I see. Thats not what this is about at all. Europe has "one" OS, thats Linux and thats free. The funny part is that this ruling is mostly to protect the rights of US software companies, as its them that have complained the loudest. The Java wars is a classic example. Or the original Apple vs Microsoft fight over Windows 1.0.

You know, I don't hear Steven Jobs bellyaching like this, and we all know that Macs, for the longest time, pretty much couldn't run a damn thing you could run on your PC.

Dude! You do know that Apple sued Microsoft over Windows right?

This is just Europe recognizing their own mediocrity and making an attempt to pick up their ball and go home, being the inferior trash they are.

Ahh you are another cluess eurobashing yank I see.

This is why they'll never be anything better than a "fast follower" in the global information market...and even that's only if southeast Asia falls asleep.

Oh, I see. Which network structure is cheaper (more competiton) and has faster speeds.. European countries or the US? Who has more broadband connections per captia, European countries or the US?

 

[Ikari]

Microsoft has a monopoly and chooses to lock in media player, internet explorer and other programs. They have expressly written their operating system in such a fashion that interferes with 3rd parties trying to put programs on the windows OS.

I don't know, I have windows machines and I don't use IE or MP...in fact I can pretty much use what I want, but Excel and Powerpoint are really nice and I use them a lot. I had used Open Office on my Windows machine just fine, no problem at all. But Excel has a ridiculous mathematics package and can do a lot of great calculations and fits in relatively short time (for most things, for big data sets I use Fortran). It's truly absurd the power packed into Excel, people who use it for just book keeping or whatever aren't even scratching the surface of Excel's abilities. But regardless, I know people who can boot either Windows or Linux on the same computer, who run all sorts of freeware/3rd party programs (mostly cause they don't like MS for some reason and like showing how much they don't like them by getting a windows machine to use all sorts of non windows stuffs).

So maybe it's different in Europe, but I don't see how they are locking anything out. Windows doesn't really bitch at me when I use third party programs instead of the built in Windows stuffs.

 

[Gipper]

LOL it has nothing to do with protectionism. In fact the laws that were used, were first put in place in the US to break up huge monopolies that used very dirty tricks (even murder) to stay on top. Ever heard of Standard Oil, AT&T and all the other monopolies that have been broken up in part or totaly by the US over the years?

Oh, we've become a conspiracy theorist now? Microsoft owns a massive chunk of market share, but they are nothing near a monopoly, especially now. Ten years ago, you could argue that. Now, not even close. Even all the bullshit antitrust suits brought to Gates' doorstep help with that.

Are you talking about cracking microsoft programs? If so, thats not what this is about. Its about giving access to 3rd party software makers to make thier programs better integrated into Windows, and not using Windows as way to keep other software makers out of the market.

I know what it's about. I just mentioned a bit of subterfuge with the anarchistic part of me.

You know, there are other ways around that. There are other OS out there that are more competitor-friendly. You may as well complain that I can't rip an alternator out of my Ford to use in my Chevy. Defiance! Defiance!

This is just encouraging European firms to get sloppy. I can name an absolute TON of programs that, five years ago, you couldn't even place the box next to a Mac without a huge puff of smoke coming out...and now run like clockwork.

Let me give you and example. Would you find it okay if Microsoft put a block in Windows so that Realmedia Player or Winamp did not work? I am not saying that they have, but they have prevented these 2 AMERICAN companies from gaining access to Windows code that could better integrate thier software into Windows. The same goes for Firefox and Opera browsers.

Yes, because I have options. I can choose to run Windows for variety or I can choose to run pretty much anything else for quality. Matter in fact, I have Leopard on one of my computers for that specific reason. The makeup difference between all my computers are negligible.

You are clueless I see. Thats not what this is about at all. Europe has "one" OS, thats Linux

And you want to talk to me about monopolies?

Dude! You do know that Apple sued Microsoft over Windows right?

Irrelevant. Microsoft has sued Apple as well. Many times. Anything ranging from "unfair practices" to anything involving the i<enter device here>. This is common practice and ultimately has nothing to do with scares of market share. I doubt Microsoft cares one way or another that Jobs doesn't license and they're locked out of the iPod/Phone/etc market for a while.

Ahh you are another cluess eurobashing yank I see.

Nah, I just recognize a standing case of tall poppy syndrome when I see it.

Oh, I see. Which network structure is cheaper (more competiton) and has faster speeds.. European countries or the US? Who has more broadband connections per captia, European countries or the US?

Who has higher taxes, European countries or the US? Who has higher population density, European countries or the US?

I can play this game too.

 

[PeteEU]

Oh, we've become a conspiracy theorist now? Microsoft owns a massive chunk of market share, but they are nothing near a monopoly, especially now. Ten years ago, you could argue that. Now, not even close. Even all the bullshit antitrust suits brought to Gates' doorstep help with that.

Microsoft has 85%+ of the consumer market at least and that is a near monopoly. There are 2 real alternatives and both have huge drawbacks when compared to Microsoft Windows. Both are in part American driven. Linux might have been invented by a European, but the brand and system is global. Apple is US. There are no other real alternatives to the 3.

The drawbacks with Linux is lack of games and ease of installation and useage. The drawbacks with Apple is lack of games and price.

And lets face it, if an OS is to be succesfull, it has to look and feel like Windows and run a ton of apps and especially games.

I keep mentioning games, because that is what drives the computer industry and has done for the last decade.

I know what it's about. I just mentioned a bit of subterfuge with the anarchistic part of me.

That suprises me, as you have not even mentioned anything near the core of the issue at hand. You have instead used the usual baseless anti Europan slurs.

You know, there are other ways around that. There are other OS out there that are more competitor-friendly. You may as well complain that I can't rip an alternator out of my Ford to use in my Chevy. Defiance! Defiance!

Lously example. The car market is far more fractured with tons of car makers. And if you look at the case its often no about the OS it self, but how Microsoft uses its near monopoly among normal consumers to promote extra software of its own. Mediaplayer and Explorer browser are classic examples.

This is just encouraging European firms to get sloppy.

What European firms!? There are no European OS producers that I know off. There are software companies of course but they are in the same shitty boat as the US, Japanese and other nations software companies when it comes to making thier software workable in Windows. Its companies like Realplayer, Adobe, Symantec, MacAfee and many many other companies that are complaining. Oh and those are the US companies!

I can name an absolute TON of programs that, five years ago, you couldn't even place the box next to a Mac without a huge puff of smoke coming out...and now run like clockwork.

Mac is crap, has always been and always will be. There is next to no software development for Mac when compared to Windows. The market is seriously small and based on near fanatical support for Apple. Apple droped the ball in the 1980s and have never recovered

Yes, because I have options. I can choose to run Windows for variety or I can choose to run pretty much anything else for quality. Matter in fact, I have Leopard on one of my computers for that specific reason. The makeup difference between all my computers are negligible.

The hell you have options. Mac machines are way overpriced compared to Windows machines and always have been, not to mention the choice of software and games is extremly limited compared to windows and even Linux. Thats been thier problem since day one. Mac has also been way to closed system for any real developement and promotion. At least Apple has gained some brains and switched processor type and opened up to 3rd party computer makers. Now if they could promote thier product better, then maybe it would spread, but I have my doubts with Microsoft being so dominant.

Regardless on ones opinion about Microsoft, thier business plan from the start, to spread dos and later Windows to as many machines as possible, but not always within the law, has paid off. They are dominant period. They have the computer producers in thier pockets. Very few computer producers untill very recently were allowed to supply anything else than Windows. Thanks to anti trust rulings like the European ones, this practice is now fround upon if not directly illegal.

And you want to talk to me about monopolies?

As I stated, Linux is "Europes only OS". But if you knew something about Linux then you would know its a global thing now and has been for over a decade. The only reason Europe can "claim" it is because the guy who invented it (in the format in question) was from Finland but in fact lives in the US now.

Irrelevant. Microsoft has sued Apple as well. Many times. Anything ranging from "unfair practices" to anything involving the i<enter device here>. This is common practice and ultimately has nothing to do with scares of market share. I doubt Microsoft cares one way or another that Jobs doesn't license and they're locked out of the iPod/Phone/etc market for a while.

Hardly irrelevant. It shows motive and past experience in doing monopolistic things, like forcing competitiors out of a market.

And dont worry, Apple will soon get hit by complaints about thier shitty iPhone service. Not to mention the big questions about thier iTunes crap and how it binds the user.

Who has higher taxes, European countries or the US? Who has higher population density, European countries or the US?

I can play this game too.

Not very well it seems. Diverting attention away from the topic is a classic example of losing an argument.

 

[winston53660]

Mac is crap, has always been and always will be. There is next to no software development for Mac when compared to Windows. The market is seriously small and based on near fanatical support for Apple. Apple droped the ball in the 1980s and have never recovered.

That really depends, for my gig in photography I'm seriously about going Mac because their new OS can handle and print in 16 bit resolution.

 

[PeteEU]

That really depends, for my gig in photography I'm seriously about going Mac because their new OS can handle and print in 16 bit resolution.

Yea I understand that. For certain things Mac is very good at. I know quite a few PR companies uses and used Mac at some point for extacly this. However Windows has the same programs and more programs for the same thing today. 5 to 10 years ago, I would have agreeed Mac > Windows on photo and publishing.. today I aint so sure anymore.

However it does not change the fact what Mac is. Its a fringe market of very devoted followers, and no impact on the market as a whole. When mac comes out with new Mac items, do you really believe that most consumers give a rats ass? Sure the media love Apple, but frankly Apple has not made any impact on Windows or Linux strangle hold on consumer and corporate/server based systems.

On top of that Apple might get the media focus when it comes out with its "wizbang" items, but they are hardly ground breaking. Ipod was hardly ground breaking, as MP3 players had existed before it came out. What was "ground breaking" was iTunes store, and that made the iPod, untill consumers realized they were basicly bound to iTunes. The same goes for iPhone. It looks great, got lots of media attention and of course fans loved it. But other mobile phone companies have the same and even better phones that are not bound to one operator.... at least here in Europe. Samsung and Nokia have great phones that do more than iPhone.

Mac has many things that speak against it, but foremost is lack of games. I know it sounds stupid, but fact is that the gaming industry has driven the consumer market and the advancement in computer power for the last decade. I mean we dont need tons of ram or graphics cards with 128+ mb ddr3 ram to run basic computer stuff. We need them for games however.

Thats not saying that Mac dont have games, it just dont have the same amount of titles. Linux is even worse at this and suffers even more.

But that still dont change the fact that Microsoft has a near natural monoply that it has exploited to gain access to other markets and drive competiton out.

 

[Zyphlin]

I'm confused...

How can there be 50 years of EU competition policy if the EU isn't 50 years old?

Or am I just missing something obvious here?

 

[winston53660]

Yea I understand that. For certain things Mac is very good at. I know quite a few PR companies uses and used Mac at some point for extacly this. However Windows has the same programs and more programs for the same thing today. 5 to 10 years ago, I would have agreeed Mac > Windows on photo and publishing.. today I aint so sure anymore.

However it does not change the fact what Mac is. Its a fringe market of very devoted followers, and no impact on the market as a whole. When mac comes out with new Mac items, do you really believe that most consumers give a rats ass? Sure the media love Apple, but frankly Apple has not made any impact on Windows or Linux strangle hold on consumer and corporate/server based systems.

On top of that Apple might get the media focus when it comes out with its "wizbang" items, but they are hardly ground breaking. Ipod was hardly ground breaking, as MP3 players had existed before it came out. What was "ground breaking" was iTunes store, and that made the iPod, untill consumers realized they were basicly bound to iTunes. The same goes for iPhone. It looks great, got lots of media attention and of course fans loved it. But other mobile phone companies have the same and even better phones that are not bound to one operator.... at least here in Europe. Samsung and Nokia have great phones that do more than iPhone.

Mac has many things that speak against it, but foremost is lack of games. I know it sounds stupid, but fact is that the gaming industry has driven the consumer market and the advancement in computer power for the last decade. I mean we dont need tons of ram or graphics cards with 128+ mb ddr3 ram to run basic computer stuff. We need them for games however.

Thats not saying that Mac dont have games, it just dont have the same amount of titles. Linux is even worse at this and suffers even more.

But that still dont change the fact that Microsoft has a near natural monoply that it has exploited to gain access to other markets and drive competiton out.

I was fine running PS on my Windows machine but now Mac has that one thing about 16 bit resolution. Beyond that I really don't see the reason to pay 1000 bucks extra for what is essentially the same machine. After all the same programs that once were the domain of Mac can now be run on Windows as well.

 

[Slainte]

I'm confused...

How can there be 50 years of EU competition policy if the EU isn't 50 years old?

Or am I just missing something obvious here?

Well kinda, the commisioner is technically incorrect when he uses the term EU competition policy. The European Union only came into existance in 1993 with Maastricht, what he's referring to are the compettion laws of the European common market which have been around in different forms since the 50's.

It's quite a common thing to talk about the pre-maastricht EEC as just the EU, although I guess it's technically wrong.

 

[Panache]

Lously example. The car market is far more fractured with tons of car makers. And if you look at the case its often no about the OS it self, but how Microsoft uses its near monopoly among normal consumers to promote extra software of its own. Mediaplayer and Explorer browser are classic examples.

So? MS has a good operating system, and makes good software to run on it. If other people can't make good software to run on it, they can make their own damn operating system to run their software. Why on earth should MS be forced to pander to their competition?

Its like one football team complaining that another football team's defense won't let them take the ball to the endzone.