Well, you have yet to present any evidence that MOST people would lose their jobs if minimum wage was raised, aside from anecdotes. I'm not buying it.
Try eating the printer and get back to me.
Again, your "word" is not evidence of that.
This is not true. There are plenty of apprenticeship jobs out there. As a matter of fact, it is a requirement for a lot of trades. These apprentices are paid much more than minimum wage as well.
So, are you suggesting slave wage labor? That we should be competing with . . . China's wages? Because unless we did that, those jobs are NOT coming back, unless the government offers some kind of incentives or subsidization to them.
That is besides the point. The point is that if these CEOs weren't paid such exorbitant wages, other people lower on the rungs could be paid more, thereby reducing the income gap between them, the middle class and the poor, which wouldn't be a BAD thing.
I don't know of anyone who teaches that lesson. :roll:
SOME people NEED to be given handouts. Do you honestly think everyone is capable of making a salary they can live off? You would be wrong. Anytime there is money coming from the government, it should ONLY be to help out the poor. Our government is overstepping its boundaries when it starts giving taxpayer monies to help out failing businesses.
I accept that. However I would mention that I have posted links to research that has shown repeatedly that what I say has happened in the past.
And of course, I would also cite the last 5 years. In 2006, the unemployment rate for the lowest income people, was pretty low honestly. And then in 2007, 2008 and 2009, they raised the minimum wage. What is the unemployment rate now? Pretty high.
And in states that have had higher minimum wages, like California, the unemployment at that lowest end has been high for years. Then you look at places like France, and they have had 20% unemployment rates for DECADES.
I accept you don't buy the argument. I accept that. You and me can still be friends. I'll still be nice to you, and you can still hate me.But... I kinda think I have given quite a bit of evidence for my position. You can still disagree! But... I really have given some support for what I believe even if you don't buy the support.
Neither is yours, but that is why were here isn't it? To talk about what we think? Have I responded to all your statements with "Your 'word' is not evidence of that"? Again, I have provided evidence many times.
Really? Where are they? The only apprenticeship positions I know of are in Union jobs or multi-level marketing jobs, and Union jobs are disappearing slowly. Just for giggles, I punched in Apprenticeship into Criagslist, and I found 2. An Upholstery job starting off at $8 an hour, and Iron-workers Union had a single apprenticeship position. There were some Electrician Jobs listed, but I checked the ad, and it required your own tools, and your own truck, and you had to have previous experience. (I'm not sure how they considered that to be an "apprenticeship" but whatever)
I worked for minimum wage. Slaves can't move up from where they are. I'm getting paid more than double what I was on minimum wage.
There's no such thing as slave wages in a free economy. You don't HAVE to work for anyone. You can move up. You can work your way up. You can get promoted. Nearly everyone I knew from working at Wendy's back in high school, has moved up to better wage. My manager, is now a store manager. The grill cook, now is managing a Hertz-Rent-A-Car at the airport. One of the guys went into accounting. They all moved up!
How could they do that on slave wage labor? You say they are slaves! How can slaves now run their own stores, and have six figure incomes?!? (The Accountant has a 6 figure income, not the store managers. They are likely earning about $60K I would guess)
Back to math.
The CEO of Walmart, Mike Duke, earned $17.8 Million dollars. Walmart employs 2.1 Million employees.
If Duke cut his salary completely, to zero, and gave all $17.8 Million dollars to the employees... it would be $8.47 per employee per year. That's 70¢ a month.
Are you seriously suggesting that minimum wage people getting a check for 70¢ a month, would somehow improve the income gap?
What you are saying is simply not true. If you collected all the money CEOs make, and give it out to all the workers, it's PENNIES. It's just pennies!
What will happen instead, is Good CEOs that grow the company, won't work for low wages. You'll end up with a crappy CEO, who will flush the company down the drain, and people will lose their jobs. Read WorldCom. Read Enron.
Is that a joke? I've heard that HUNDREDS of times. You really have never heard that? Never? I can't even begin to count the number of times I've heard that.
Yes absolutely! Look, I mentioned above about the Grill Cook. The Grill Cook at the Wendy's where I worked, was a guy form Romania. There was some problems in Romania, and he packed up his kids, his wife, and came to America, with nothing. He barely knew English. Didn't have any education. Didn't have any degrees, or certifications, or anything. He had little money.
He walked to work, because he had no car. His wife walked to the store because she didn't have anything either. Their kids got second hand bikes, and rode to school on them.
This guy worked as a burger flipper for 2 to 3 years, flipping burgers for minimum wage. They lived off minimum wage. No they didn't have computers and internet, or TV, and air conditioning was opening the windows in the summer. They lived in a one bedroom apartment. Their two kids slept in the living room.
You can live on very little. It's a choice.
This guy worked hard. He was always on time. He always did what he was asked. He was always happy. Like I said before, he moved up and years later I met him working at the biggest Hertz Rent-a-Car in Columbus Ohio, the one right by the airport. He wasn't just working there, he was the manager of the entire store.
Now here's my problem. You are telling me, that a guy from Romania, who barely speaks English, who has no education, no training or skills, no money to get any education, can not only survive off minimum wage at Wendy's, but also move up over time to become a store manager of a lucrative business.........
But an America, with full education, somehow is incapable of doing what the uneducated foreign guy can?
No, I don't believe it. If that's true, then Americans are the most absolutely pathetic retarded fools on the planet. Foreign people with NOTHING can come to America and succeed, but Americans with all the advantages of being educated and raised here, can not? No! I'm sorry! That is far too unbelievable. I just simply don't buy it.
I accept that. However I would mention that I have posted links to research that has shown repeatedly that what I say has happened in the past.
And of course, I would also cite the last 5 years. In 2006, the unemployment rate for the lowest income people, was pretty low honestly. And then in 2007, 2008 and 2009, they raised the minimum wage. What is the unemployment rate now? Pretty high.
And in states that have had higher minimum wages, like California, the unemployment at that lowest end has been high for years. Then you look at places like France, and they have had 20% unemployment rates for DECADES.
I accept you don't buy the argument. I accept that. You and me can still be friends. I'll still be nice to you, and you can still hate me.But... I kinda think I have given quite a bit of evidence for my position. You can still disagree! But... I really have given some support for what I believe even if you don't buy the support.
I don't know either now. I can't find direct evidence. However, I never suggested that GM would want to do this. Only the Unions would. And as I said, there are many Unions that absolutely do have automatic pay raises tied to minimum wage.
That's kind of my point actually. GM didn't suffer a strike, because they agreed with Union demands, which resulted in the bankruptcy.
But that's just it. They didn't get concessions. Ford got concession back in 2006. Which is exactly why they had lower labor costs than GM or Chrysler. The Unions refused to give concessions to GM and Chrysler in 2008, which is exactly why they went bankrupt.
Yes, but there's a reason. If you are running a car company, and your labor is significantly higher than Toyota or Honda, what happens? You have to drive up your prices to compensate.
Well you can't do that. If the comparable Toyota is $5,000 cheaper, you are going to lose customers really fast. So you have to keep the price with the market. You go to the Unions, and they refuse to cut labor costs. There's only one other thing you can cut. The quality of the car. Cheaper materials. Fewer luxuries.
You are looking at an effect of Union contracts, and calling it a cause. Lower quality cars is an effect of higher labor costs. Again, corporations do not have a single penny that doesn't come from either higher prices on customers, or lower wages to employees, or a cheaper product. If you can't raise your price because of Toyota and Honda, and you can't cut your wages to employees because of the Unions, then the only alternative is to produce a cheaper product.
Then you call that a bad management decision. I do not buy it.
Your argument actually falls apart on the opposite end. Without a minimum wage, wages just keep getting worse and worse and eventually leads to a farm of slavery where the employer puts the employee into debt with them because they don't pay the employee enough to survive.
What proof do you have that this would happen in this country today?
That isn't an answer. Try demanding $20 an hour to pick tomatoes and get back to me.
Notice how my response is about as valid, or in this case, as stupid as yours? If you want to have a discussion at the 5-year-old level of debate, go somewhere else. I'm here to talk to adult. If you are not one, please move on and spare the rest of us, ok?
Try eating the printer and get back to me.
I can grow a tomato, yet I cannot grow (or make) a printer. Why does a fishing rod/reel cost more than a fish?
You can grow a tomato, lucky you. Why do you need a printer or a fishing rod and reel?
Businesses make a LOT more money than they did in the 1960s. That is just a fact. At the same time, minimum wage has remained relatively flat.
I need a printer to produce my estimates/bids and for customer bills. I need fishing gear to catch fish. You ask some very easy questions!
Don't forget that the dollar is worth less than 10% of what it was worth in the 60's. In the 60's I could buy gas for 25 cents per gallon. I could buy a small but brand new house for $20,000. My new 1964 Volkswagen cost me $1600. There were no billionaires. Millionaires were rare. The comparison you make is meaningless without considering the intervening inflation.
Because there are almost no people who could work but won't. There's just a substantial amount who can't. And those are the people who would starve if not for the programs you're discussing. The fiction about a class of people who refuse to work is what's driving this issue.
Don't forget that the dollar is worth less than 10% of what it was worth in the 60's. In the 60's I could buy gas for 25 cents per gallon. I could buy a small but brand new house for $20,000. My new 1964 Volkswagen cost me $1600. There were no billionaires. Millionaires were rare. The comparison you make is meaningless without considering the intervening inflation.
I bet that 50% of people on disability since 08 could be working now.
Don't forget that the dollar is worth less than 10% of what it was worth in the 60's. In the 60's I could buy gas for 25 cents per gallon. I could buy a small but brand new house for $20,000. My new 1964 Volkswagen cost me $1600. There were no billionaires. Millionaires were rare. The comparison you make is meaningless without considering the intervening inflation.
I bet that 50% of people on disability since 08 could be working now.
I bet you just pulled that figure from your ass.
I know more people drawing that could be working than I do people that actually should be. 50% was conservative.
And I know more people drawing that can't work than actually can. What makes your experience more accurate than mine?
Because you find it acceptable that they play instead of work, I don't. When I see them fishing, riding motorcycles, etc. everyone should know what is going on.
Takers are one of the biggest problems this country has and it does not stop here. People drawing unemployment longer than 26 weeks add to the problem as do these farmers drawing these incredible subsidies.
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