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English 102: "... to keep and bear arms"

Feynman Lives!

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Every time one talks about the 2nd A, people start debating if it's an individual or a collective or a civil right. BTW, one day I might open a thread explaining why I think it's neither an individual or a collective right. But this is not it. Because I think it's not as relevant a debate as it would be to ask: A right to do WHAT?

If you want to discuss the grammatical structure of the 2nd A, that topic is here

Many confuse the right to keep and bear arms, with an individual right to own weapons. Here I demonstrate (or linguists demonstrate, I just summarize it) that this part is in reference, not to hunting, not to sports.... not even to self defense; but to a military scenario. As historian Garry Wills put it, “One does not bear arms against a rabbit.”

Two databases, COFEA (Corpus of Founding Era American English) and COEME (Corpus of Early Modern English) https://lawcorpus.byu.edu/, compile basically all the documents written around the time the Bill of Rights was written. Books, articles, pamphlets.... even signs!

Using these databases, linguists searched for all occurrences of the words "bear" within 4 words, left or right of "arms" to find out what the phrases "keep", "bear" or "keep and bear" would mean to any moderately educated American of the period.

Eliminating sentences that obviously had nothing to do with the matter (such as "the bear tore away his arms" or "she couldn't bear looking at his arms" ... and similar) they found that only 2% related to anything other than military. And even those required a qualifier to indicate that it was not military. For example, in some state constitutions where the phrase that appears is something like "...bear arms for the defence of the state and for personal defence". With no qualifiers, the phrase always referred to a military setting.

While "keep and bear arms" with no qualifiers refers to a military scenario, the "keep" and "bear" next to "arms" part has a few exceptions. "To keep" was used very frequently in the 18th century to mean "maintain in good working condition". It does neither imply nor preclude ownership. You keep something in good working condition regardless of whether you own it or not. Like a professional housekeeper keeps a house they don't own, or a groundskeeper keeps in good order a garden they don't own. "To bear" can also mean to carry. But the complete idiom "to keep and bear arms" with no qualifiers always refers to a military scenario.

So, bottom line: when the 2nd A was passed, it was clear in the minds of all those who approved it, as well as those who read it, that "the right to keep and bear arms", with no other qualifiers, implied "arms" as used in a military scenario. In their mind this didn't mean hunting, or sports or even personal self defense.... it meant a right to protect the freedom of a free state because a well regulated militia was necessary.
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=42613

I highlight with no qualifiers. Because there are instances in which the sentence explicitly states that weapons would be used for personal purposes. For example "to keep and bear arms for self defense and the defense of the country". A qualifier does modify the military scenario condition. But the fact that a qualifier was necessary is more evidence that, without a qualifier, any English speaker at the time would know it referenced something related to the military.

Even though "keep and bear arms" would necessarily evoke a military scenario in the mind of any 18th century English speaker, there is nothing in the phrase that would evoke ownership. Many members of the militia owned their weapons. However, the Constitution (Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 15 and 16) references how militia members would "keep and bear arms" even if they don't own them.

So, bottom line: as demonstrated through the search of these databases, there is NOTHING in the wording of the 2nd A that implies ownership in the minds of any average (and above) English speaker.

There is no doubt that at the time, most Americans (our founding fathers included) valued owning weapons. In no small part because of the mistrust of a standing army. But the 2nd A didn't limit nor did it affirm a right to own weapons. It simply didn't address it. It only addressed the afore mentioned right to keep and bear arms.
 
OK, you’ve used many words to describe the type of arms being addressed by the 2A rights - those used by a militia or military force. What you haven’t done is show that particular “right of the people” was in some way intended to apply based on the militia (eligibility?) status of the people. Until recently, all women and men over a certain age weren’t eligible to serve in a militia, yet there were never laws preventing them from buying or owning guns.
 
Two databases, COFEA (Corpus of Founding Era American English) and COEME (Corpus of Early Modern English) https://lawcorpus.byu.edu/, compile basically all the documents written around the time the Bill of Rights was written. Books, articles, pamphlets.... even signs!

Using these databases, linguists searched for all occurrences of the words "bear" within 4 words, left or right of "arms" to find out what the phrases "keep", "bear" or "keep and bear" would mean to any moderately educated American of the period.

Eliminating sentences that obviously had nothing to do with the matter (such as "the bear tore away his arms" or "she couldn't bear looking at his arms" ... and similar) they found that only 2% related to anything other than military. And even those required a qualifier to indicate that it was not military. For example, in some state constitutions where the phrase that appears is something like "...bear arms for the defence of the state and for personal defence". With no qualifiers, the phrase always referred to a military setting.

While "keep and bear arms" with no qualifiers refers to a military scenario, the "keep" and "bear" next to "arms" part has a few exceptions. "To keep" was used very frequently in the 18th century to mean "maintain in good working condition". It does neither imply nor preclude ownership. You keep something in good working condition regardless of whether you own it or not. Like a professional housekeeper keeps a house they don't own, or a groundskeeper keeps in good order a garden they don't own. "To bear" can also mean to carry. But the complete idiom "to keep and bear arms" with no qualifiers always refers to a military scenario.

So, bottom line: when the 2nd A was passed, it was clear in the minds of all those who approved it, as well as those who read it, that "the right to keep and bear arms", with no other qualifiers, implied "arms" as used in a military scenario. In their mind this didn't mean hunting, or sports or even personal self defense.... it meant a right to protect the freedom of a free state because a well regulated militia was necessary.
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=42613

I highlight with no qualifiers. Because there are instances in which the sentence explicitly states that weapons would be used for personal purposes. For example "to keep and bear arms for self defense and the defense of the country". A qualifier does modify the military scenario condition. But the fact that a qualifier was necessary is more evidence that, without a qualifier, any English speaker at the time would know it referenced something related to the military.

Even though "keep and bear arms" would necessarily evoke a military scenario in the mind of any 18th century English speaker, there is nothing in the phrase that would evoke ownership. Many members of the militia owned their weapons. However, the Constitution (Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 15 and 16) references how militia members would "keep and bear arms" even if they don't own them.

So, bottom line: as demonstrated through the search of these databases, there is NOTHING in the wording of the 2nd A that implies ownership in the minds of any average (and above) English speaker.
What's your area of linguistics?

And why do you think that databases are going to yield an immersive understanding of the writings of the time?
 
What's your area of linguistics?

And why do you think that databases are going to yield an immersive understanding of the writings of the time?

Historical context is intentionally being ignored. The 2A rights were included in the BoR amendments to prevent the (federal) government from preventing people from (legally) owning arms (guns), as was previously done to the colonists by the British crown.
 
Historical context is intentionally being ignored. The 2A rights were included in the BoR amendments to prevent the (federal) government from preventing people from (legally) owning arms (guns), as was previously done to the colonists by the British crown.

Well, if one wants to go with "original intent", today that would mean the government should not prevent anyone from the public to be able to keep and bear nuclear arms. If the goal is deterrence against potential government tyranny, can you imagine a better deterrent than tactical nukes in the garage of any proud, patriotic private citizen who wants one? I bet that would make the folks in DC think twice about passing any more bills someone may not like, eh?

Just pointing out how ridiculously, hopelessly and dangerously obsolete the 2A has become by modern technology. It's one of those laws that has not kept up with the times. It's gotta go- just a matter of time and how much blood and gore America is willing to stomach before it does.
 
OK, you’ve used many words to describe the type of arms being addressed by the 2A rights
"Types of arms"? I have said nothing about types of arms. You are probably confusing me with somebody else.

This thread has nothing to do with types of arms. It just explains what the idiom "to keep and bear arms" would mean to any English speaker in the 18th century.
 
Historical context is intentionally being ignored.
It's ignored only because it's not the topic. There are two more threads coming that are explicitly about the historical context. But we go step by step.
 
Historical context is intentionally being ignored. The 2A rights were included in the BoR amendments to prevent the (federal) government from preventing people from (legally) owning arms (guns), as was previously done to the colonists by the British crown.

In 1774 the British banned the importation of guns and gunpowder into the colonies. In 1774-775, the British confiscated weapons. They did this because a revolution was brewing.
 
Well, if one wants to go with "original intent", today that would mean the government should not prevent anyone from the public to be able to keep and bear nuclear arms. If the goal is deterrence against potential government tyranny, can you imagine a better deterrent than tactical nukes in the garage of any proud, patriotic private citizen who wants one? I bet that would make the folks in DC think twice about passing any more bills someone may not like, eh?

Just pointing out how ridiculously, hopelessly and dangerously obsolete the 2A has become by modern technology. It's one of those laws that has not kept up with the times. It's gotta go- just a matter of time and how much blood and gore America is willing to stomach before it does.

Nope, it was never envisioned that an individual should have the capacity to possess weapons of mass destruction or be capable of personally defeating a large organized enemy force.
 
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In 1774 the British banned the importation of guns and gunpowder into the colonies. In 1774-775, the British confiscated weapons. They did this because a revolution was brewing.

Exactly.
 
It's ignored only because it's not the topic. There are two more threads coming that are explicitly about the historical context. But we go step by step.
We do, do we? (Alas, linguistics doesn't address tone, does it?) Then let's go back to my question about familiarity with other contemporaneous writings.
 
"Types of arms"? I have said nothing about types of arms. You are probably confusing me with somebody else.

This thread has nothing to do with types of arms. It just explains what the idiom "to keep and bear arms" would mean to any English speaker in the 18th century.

You are trying to cherry pick a few words of the 2A, place them in some other context, and use that (manipulated) result to invalidate the 2A “right of the people to…”.
 
Nope, it was never envisioned that an individual should have the capacity to possess weapons of mass destruction or being capable of personally defeating a large organized enemy force.
If the original intent was deterrence, nukes are what's needed in the modern day against modern potential tyrannical governments. Waco showed that a modern government could care less about ARs. They only seem to have their niche in massacring large numbers of unarmed civilians quickly and efficiently.

If you have noticed, the Ukrainians today are not asking for more ARs, or wishing they had spent more weekends target practicing empty beer cans on the weekends. What they wish is that they had not given up their nukes.
 
With modern weaponry, one individual can quickly perpetrate mass killing on a scale never dreamed of in the mid-late 1700's.

I do not believe such destructive power is what the authors of 2A envisioned when they put pen to paper. But here we are.
 
It's ignored only because it's not the topic.

Hmm…. Your OP seems to indicate otherwise:

Two databases, COFEA (Corpus of Founding Era American English) and COEME (Corpus of Early Modern English) https://lawcorpus.byu.edu/, compile basically all the documents written around the time the Bill of Rights was written. Books, articles, pamphlets.... even signs!

Using these databases, linguists searched for all occurrences of the words "bear" within 4 words, left or right of "arms" to find out what the phrases "keep", "bear" or "keep and bear" would mean to any moderately educated American of the period.
 
Nope, it was never envisioned that an individual should have the capacity to possess weapons of mass destruction or being capable of personally defeating a large organized enemy force.

ARs are a weapon of mass destruction. No one needs that kind of firepower for self defense or to hunt bunny rabbits. Just ask the folks at Vegas.

“I’ve been a proponent of the 2nd Amendment my entire life,” Keeter wrote. “Until the events of last night, I cannot express how wrong I was. We actually have members of our crew with CHL licenses [to carry guns], and legal firearms on the bus.”

The musician noted, “They were useless.”

Keeter went on to note that the crew “couldn’t touch” the guns “for fear police might think that we were part of the massacre and shoot us.”

“A small group (or one man) laid waste to a city with dedicated, fearless police officers desperately trying to help, because of access to an insane amount of fire power,” the musician added. “Enough is enough.”

Keeter asserted, “We need gun control RIGHT NOW,” adding, “My biggest regret is that I stubbornly didn’t realize it until my brothers on the road and myself were threatened by it.”

vegasshooting.jpg
 
ARs are a weapon of mass destruction. No one needs that kind of firepower for self defense or to hunt bunny rabbits. Just ask the folks at Vegas.

“I’ve been a proponent of the 2nd Amendment my entire life,” Keeter wrote. “Until the events of last night, I cannot express how wrong I was. We actually have members of our crew with CHL licenses [to carry guns], and legal firearms on the bus.”

The musician noted, “They were useless.”

Keeter went on to note that the crew “couldn’t touch” the guns “for fear police might think that we were part of the massacre and shoot us.”

“A small group (or one man) laid waste to a city with dedicated, fearless police officers desperately trying to help, because of access to an insane amount of fire power,” the musician added. “Enough is enough.”

Keeter asserted, “We need gun control RIGHT NOW,” adding, “My biggest regret is that I stubbornly didn’t realize it until my brothers on the road and myself were threatened by it.”

View attachment 67528025

That same (lame) argument could be used to assert that mass communication capabilities, in excess of those available at the time of our nation’s founding, are beyond the scope of an individual’s freedom of speech rights.
 
We do, do we? (Alas, linguistics doesn't address tone, does it?) Then let's go back to my question about familiarity with other contemporaneous writings.
Sure. Go for it! Contemporary writings is what this thread is about. And the databases referenced in the OP can be used by anybody.
 
Hmm…. Your OP seems to indicate otherwise:

Do you actually need me to explain to you that the mention about all the documents is not about the content of those documents but about how the idiom is USED in the documents that use it?

Really????

I will now stop responding to nonsense like this and focus only on posts about the TOPIC of the thread. Good luck trying to figure out what that topic is.....
 
That same (lame) argument could be used to assert that mass communication capabilities, in excess of those available at the time of our nation’s founding, are beyond the scope of an individual’s freedom of speech rights.

Yes it indeed could.

 
If our laws are to judged against ancient history, perhaps we should be naming historians, not lawyers, to the bench.
 
***

Eliminating sentences that obviously had nothing to do with the matter (such as "the bear tore away his arms" or "she couldn't bear looking at his arms" ... and similar) they found that only 2% related to anything other than military. And even those required a qualifier to indicate that it was not military. For example, in some state constitutions where the phrase that appears is something like "...bear arms for the defence of the state and for personal defence". With no qualifiers, the phrase always referred to a military setting.

***


Oh goody, because the first thread was such a hit. We definitely needed a sequel. What's next? Ishtar 2?

Another terrible argument. At the time, a militia was understood to be composed primarily of people who mainly supply their own rifle and ammunition needed for militia service, perhaps supplemented with equipment provided by the government. In fact, this was a legal requirement in some states. So the idea of "keeping" a firearm meaning that it's stored in some government facility, but you have a right to go there and take care of it, is patently absurd. That conclusion is especially absurd when read in the context of that being a "right" of the people that shall not be infringed. Do you really think the founders were super concerned about preserving the right of the people to make sure that government-owned weapons there weren't getting rusty?

Even worse, you gave examples where "keep and bear arms" or "bear arms" does not refer to a military setting, but you never gave an actual example of the phrase being used "without qualifiers" to refer to a military setting.

Your "bottom line" and your other conclusions are once again 100% non sequitur.
 
ARs are a weapon of mass destruction. No one needs that kind of firepower for self defense or to hunt bunny rabbits. Just ask the folks at Vegas.

There's that word again. I keep asking, and never get an answer. WHAT DOES NEED HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?

No one ever died because ARs are legal to own.
 
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