Electricity That Costs Nothing—or Even Less? It’s Happening More and More

[longview]

I learned a long time ago, read terms of service for programs you sign on the dotted line where it says you have read and understand the terms of service.

There is a difference between never being told and not reviewing what you are signing for which spells out what you are signing up for.



Agreed, no disagreement there.

The answer is simple, don't sign up for the voluntary program.

My question is - "Can participation in the program be canceled at will? Is the contract for a specified time? If for a specified time, is there an early termination penalty and what is the cost?"

It's kind of like people that sign up for the High Deductible Health Plan because it has the lowest premiums, but the plan doesn't kick in until you have a significant illness or accident resulting in thousands of dollars in medical bills. "Welp? It's the plan you signed up for. See you next open enrollment period."

WW

I agree, but the reality is a lot of people do not read the fine print, and there is usually not a paper contract, it is all online.

 

[Luce]

Any excess power can be used to mine bitcoin. The bit coins can be sold by the power company to generate revenue.

That's very nice. Drug smugglers and human traffickers will be very happy.

 

[longview]

Any excess power can be used to mine bitcoin. The bit coins can be sold by the power company to generate revenue.

I think in the future all the surplus will go to the oil refineries to be stored as transport fuels.

 

[dmpi]

That's very nice. Drug smugglers and human traffickers will be very happy.

I don't believe in crypto myself but apparently other people highly value it. It's the duty of the power company to maximize revenue.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I agree, but the reality is a lot of people do not read the fine print,

Oh I understand the reality. Which is why I disagree with the "I didn't know" reason. The real question was were you informed.

#1 If you were NOT informed, than that is on the utility and they would be subject to civil action.

#2 However if you WERE informed, and choose to ignore it then the bad is on the consumer.

and there is usually not a paper contract, it is all online.

Paper vs. online isn't relevant. If a consumer volunteers to go online, sign up for a program, and legally provide an electronic signature that they have read and understand the terms and conditions then in reality there is no difference between paper and online.

WW

 

[Lord of Planar]

I agree, but the reality is a lot of people do not read the fine print, and there is usually not a paper contract, it is all online.

If I recall, that makes a contract easy to invalidate in court.

 

[Luce]

I don't believe in crypto myself but apparently other people highly value it. It's the duty of the power company to maximize revenue.

Well, sure. And that will happen when they start acting like a bank or clearing house for fentanyl smugglers.

 

[longview]

Oh I understand the reality. Which is why I disagree with the "I didn't know" reason. The real question was were you informed.

#1 If you were NOT informed, than that is on the utility and they would be subject to civil action.

#2 However if you WERE informed, and choose to ignore it then the bad is on the consumer.



Paper vs. online isn't relevant. If a consumer volunteers to go online, sign up for a program, and legally provide an electronic signature that they have read and understand the terms and conditions then in reality there is no difference between paper and online.

WW

These providers have been shown in the past to be very misleading, while the fine print may be out there, it may be questionable as to how easy it would be to find.

 

[longview]

If I recall, that makes a contract easy to invalidate in court.

Likely but I contend that people may not know about the limitations until there are in real need.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Likely but I contend that people may not know about the limitations until there are in real need.

I understand. And thats the point.

It's not "may not know". The question is "were they informed and then signed up for the program". A subtle difference but an important one.

Anyone can claim they "didn't know".

When you sign up for a program to allow the utility to control power consumption to receive a discount, how reasonable is to to claim that a customer didn't know that they agreed to allow the utility to control power consumption to receive a discount?

WW

 

[longview]

I understand. And thats the point.

It's not "may not know". The question is "were they informed and then signed up for the program". A subtle difference but an important one.

Anyone can claim they "didn't know".

When you sign up for a program to allow the utility to control power consumption to receive a discount, how reasonable is to to claim that a customer didn't know that they agreed to allow the utility to control power consumption to receive a discount?

WW

It is not phrased that way, I don't think they have that program any longer, (I look a few min ago) I think it was because
once word got our what they were doing no one signed up anymore.

 

[WorldWatcher]

It is not phrased that way, I don't think they have that program any longer, (I look a few min ago) I think it was because
once word got our what they were doing no one signed up anymore.

So people had a choice? All I've been saying.

WW

 

[longview]

So people had a choice? All I've been saying.

WW

Oh they had a choice, but the "Show Details" on the links of the providers are not entirely clear.
I read them carefully when I re up, and still miss some stuff.
The PowerToChoose site has better into, but not all the sites include the details like a PDF of the terms of service.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Voluntary to sign up for not voluntary as to when the curtail the AC !

You have provided no evidence that the customers didn't understand the contract or that it caused problems. Instead your source provided this quote from a customer.

"Garcia, who was working in her home office, had no idea that Texas was teetering on the edge of an energy crisis that evening or that Octopus Energy, her power company, was waging a battle in her living room to save the grid. But these small adjustments to her thermostat saved about 10 kilowatt-hours of electricity, which is enough to wash about 20 loads of laundry.

“I never really notice when they change the thermostat,” said Garcia, who signed up for the energy-saving program in exchange for a discount on her monthly power bill...

One way to address this is to give customers more control over how they participate. Octopus Energy, for instance, agrees not to let customers’ homes rise above a maximum temperature they choose, and it guarantees their cars will be fully charged by a time they pick. Customers can override the automatic shutdowns any time, but Octopus says fewer than five percent of them do."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2024/virtual-power-plants-clean-energy-electricity-demand/

 

[WorldWatcher]

You have provided no evidence that the customers didn't understand the contract or that it caused problems. Instead your source provided this quote from a customer.

"Garcia, who was working in her home office, had no idea that Texas was teetering on the edge of an energy crisis that evening or that Octopus Energy, her power company, was waging a battle in her living room to save the grid. But these small adjustments to her thermostat saved about 10 kilowatt-hours of electricity, which is enough to wash about 20 loads of laundry.

“I never really notice when they change the thermostat,” said Garcia, who signed up for the energy-saving program in exchange for a discount on her monthly power bill...

One way to address this is to give customers more control over how they participate. Octopus Energy, for instance, agrees not to let customers’ homes rise above a maximum temperature they choose, and it guarantees their cars will be fully charged by a time they pick. Customers can override the automatic shutdowns any time, but Octopus says fewer than five percent of them do."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2024/virtual-power-plants-clean-energy-electricity-demand/

... Customers can override the automatic shutdowns any time...

Wait, customers could over ride the utility companies changes at any time?

So the adjustments made truly were voluntary since if they didn't want the changes they could opt out.

WW

 

[Bergslagstroll]

... Customers can override the automatic shutdowns any time...

Wait, customers could over ride the utility companies changes at any time?

So the adjustments made truly were voluntary since if they didn't want the changes they could opt out.

WW

Customers can also both save a lot of money and play an important role in balancing the grid.

"Another strategy is to give customers big discounts and remind them that they’re contributing to the greater good. Garcia, the Houston homeowner, signed up for the Octopus Energy virtual power plant last year, after the company offered to shave $300 a year off her energy bills — and told Garcia she could help Texas avoid a blackout like the one the state experienced during winter storm Uri in 2021."

That we get a more reliable grid with households, small businesses and local communities that produce their own electricity and help balancing the grid.

UK's Smart Energy Appliances: Driving Flexibility & Savings

Explore how the UK Government's new consumer protection rules aim to scale the flexible energy services market and lower annual energy bills by up to £900. Learn more here.

www.edie.net

 

[Volunteer]

There's nothing. Fluff pieces don't mean much once you understand how a battery works.

everyone who says batteries are going to be this magical solution are just misinformed.

Here's how my battery works:
Sun shines on the silicon panels on our roof, creating a flow of electrons to our lithium ion battery for storage.
Hurricane Helene slams our area, blacking out Duke Energy in North Carolina.
Electricity from the battery provided us, without even blinking, all the creature comforts we needed for eleven days, including drinking water and hot showers for all our neighbors.

That's how our battery works.
It was a magical solution.

.

 

[CLAX1911]

Here's how my battery works:
Sun shines on the silicon panels on our roof, creating a flow of electrons to our lithium ion battery for storage.
Hurricane Helene slams our area, blacking out Duke Energy in North Carolina.
Electricity from the battery provided us, without even blinking, all the creature comforts we needed for eleven days, including drinking water and hot showers for all our neighbors.

That's how our battery works.
It was a magical solution.

.

What kind of battery do you have what size?

 

[Lord of Planar]

What kind of battery do you have what size?

It would have to be a very large battery to provide hot water for that long, including the neighbors. I do not believe it.

 

[CLAX1911]

It would have to be a very large battery to provide hot water for that long, including the neighbors. I do not believe it.

It has to be able to sustain a lot of amperage water heaters use a lot of amperage. I'm wondering if the story is baloney.

A standard 60x60 cm PV cell produces two watts. He has a great big battery life got $60,000 battery maybe it was charged on the mains but he would probably have to have quite a large array of PV cells to generate all of that energy.

Anybody that's ever messed with solar panels knows the their best use really is trickle charging batteries maintenance charging.

This is the problem with solar you go greatly oversell it. Either he's essentially using his electric car battery to power all this stuff and it's just depleting or he purchased the $60,000 battery or there's generators involved.

 

[Volunteer]

Lord and Clax - I could send you the specs for my system and the other systems I've installed. But what's the point if your minds are already made up?

 

[longview]

Lord and Clax - I could send you the specs for my system and the other systems I've installed. But what's the point if your minds are already made up?

I think they are questioning the idea of heating water with photovoltaic Solar.
Do you have a solar water heater system of a gas water heater?

 

[Buzz]

It would have to be a very large battery to provide hot water for that long, including the neighbors. I do not believe it.

It has to be able to sustain a lot of amperage water heaters use a lot of amperage. I'm wondering if the story is baloney.

A standard 60x60 cm PV cell produces two watts. He has a great big battery life got $60,000 battery maybe it was charged on the mains but he would probably have to have quite a large array of PV cells to generate all of that energy.

Anybody that's ever messed with solar panels knows the their best use really is trickle charging batteries maintenance charging.

This is the problem with solar you go greatly oversell it. Either he's essentially using his electric car battery to power all this stuff and it's just depleting or he purchased the $60,000 battery or there's generators involved.

You two have no clue what you're talking about.

A standard 60 x60 cm panel can produce up to about 200 watts. And when you have an array of many panels on a roof they could provide thousands of watts of power. That is plenty of power to provide numerous showers over eleven days.

And you would only need 60,000 dollars worth of batteries if you provided all your neighbors with showers all in one shot.

I seriously don't understand why anybody takes what you two say seriously as frequently as you two get your facts wrong.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Lord and Clax - I could send you the specs for my system and the other systems I've installed. But what's the point if your minds are already made up?

It when you said supplying your neighbors and hot water where I lost faith in your words. I understand what they are capable of.

You two have no clue what you're talking about.

A standard 60 x60 cm panel can produce up to about 200 watts.

That would be in direct alignment with the sun, low atmospheric attenuation,and about 50% efficiency.

And when you have an array of many panels on a roof they could provide thousands of watts of power. That is plenty of power to provide numerous showers over eleven days.

I agree with that. Get a system designed to be over capacity, charge good batteries, and you are all set.

And you would only need 60,000 dollars worth of batteries if you provided all your neighbors with showers all in one shot.

Yes, it is possible. But how many people will actually build that much over capacity?

I seriously don't understand why anybody takes what you two say seriously as frequently as you two get your facts wrong.

I never said it was impossible, I said I didn't believe he had that much of a system. You are the one with the arrogance to make unreal claims here. My mistake might be thinking you guys use the same boat.

 

[ataraxia]

When will liberals understand that nothing is really free?

Yes. That's why technology should never advance.
/s