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[NSFW] Egypt scrapping F-16 for Chinese J-10 (1 Viewer)

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gman

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Unspoken consequences of unconditional backing of Israel. The article doesn't say so, but a blind man can see what's behind the reasoning. This doesn't bode well for the US arms industry. This may be the precursor to future arms deals in the Middle East.
 
gman said:
Unspoken consequences of unconditional backing of Israel. The article doesn't say so, but a blind man can see what's behind the reasoning. This doesn't bode well for the US arms industry. This may be the precursor to future arms deals in the Middle East.
Click to expand...

"Moving away from Egypt’s traditional reliance on Western, particularly American, military equipment is a political and financial decision. A dictatorial regime, poor human rights records, geopolitics and a cash-strapped country, Egypt does not have a choice other than purchasing cheap Chinese military products."

www.globaldefensecorp.com

Here’s Why Egypt Purchased Chinese J-10C Vigorous Dragon Junk Fighter Jets

Moving away from Egypt’s traditional reliance on Western, particularly American, military equipment is a political and financial decision. A dictatorial regime, poor human rights records, geopoliti…
www.globaldefensecorp.com www.globaldefensecorp.com
 
The F-16 is a fantastic aircraft but it's no spring chicken and I would assume the J-10 is much easier to upgrade to ultra modern standards and the maintenance of a new airframe will likely cost less.
If it was just a choice of aircraft based on which I like best the F-16 wins hands down but countries take a hard nosed and unsentimental view of where they money goes.
 
Israel is the only country in the ME authorized by Congress to have the F-35 Lightning II. This is so Israel can have air superiority over all air forces in the ME and also Iran.

Reports say Egypt is interested in the Chinese J-10C more for its missiles than for the super cheap Light Combat Aircraft that the J-10C is. Right now Egypt is looking at the token purchase of only 12 of the J-10C. Cairo is instead eager to get its hands on the Chinese J-31 fifth generation stealth fighter which, while it is not the F-35 equivalent, it is a 5th generation fighter that is superior to all ME air forces except Israel and its F-35.

When it comes to a main high performance fighter aircraft Cairo is most seriously engaged with India for its powerful Tejas Mk1A advanced fighter. Unlike with the Chinese J-10C, a deal being discussed with New Delhi includes a Maintenance, Research, and Overhaul facility in Egypt. In contrast all Egypt would have of the 12 J-10Cs is the light fighter itself....and its missile technology. There's no long term or large scale Egyptian commitment being contemplated for the J-10C. Egypt is tired too of the training and logistical bother of its air force having equipment and stocks from the USA, Russia and France. Sanctions against Russia are another factor in redirecting Cairo's purchasing decisions.


UAE which provided troops to Afghanistan and hosts US troops in Abu Dhabi has in recent years been dogging Washington for the F-35 -- they want 50 of 'em. In Trump's last dayze in the WH he willy nilly approved this only to be rescinded right away by Biden. The US is concerned the UAE has Chinese communication technology and related interests that would conflict with super confidential features of the F-35. Indeed, Washington pulled its licensed F-35 manufacture and purchase from Turkey in Turkey after Erdogan bought the NATO incompatible Russian S-400 air defense system (that Ukraine has since blown up in Crimea using HIMARs and ATACMs). Erdogan ended up with the highly upgraded F-16 Viper, Boeing having taken the name Viper from what F-16 pilots call it.

Last year Washington sent a reinforcement squadron of F-35s to Israel for expanded F-35s recon and patrols but recently withdrew it given Netanyahu continues to look like a barbarian much to the detriment of the United States throughout the region.
 
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Per the article, Egypt has been diversifying for over a decade. They bought Russian MIGs a decade ago and French fighters as well. If its a political move its a dumb one, since the jets they are buying arent as good as the F16V.
 
Tangmo said:
Israel is the only country in the ME authorized by Congress to have the F-35 Lightning II. This is so Israel can have air superiority over all air forces in the ME and also Iran.

Reports say Egypt is interested in the Chinese J-10C more for its missiles than for the super cheap Light Combat Aircraft that the J-10C is. Right now Egypt is looking at the token purchase of only 12 of the J-10C. Cairo is instead eager to get its hands on the Chinese J-31 fifth generation stealth fighter which, while it is not the F-35 equivalent, it is a 5th generation fighter that is superior to all ME air forces except Israel and its F-35.

When it comes to a main high performance fighter aircraft Cairo is most seriously engaged with India for its powerful Tejas Mk1A advanced fighter. Unlike with the Chinese J-10C, a deal being discussed with New Delhi includes a Maintenance, Research, and Overhaul facility in Egypt. In contrast all Egypt would have of the 12 J-10Cs is the light fighter itself....and its missile technology. There's no long term or large scale Egyptian commitment being contemplated for the J-10C. Egypt is tired too of the training and logistical bother of its air force having equipment and stocks from the USA, Russia and France. Sanctions against Russia are another factor in redirecting Cairo's purchasing decisions.


UAE which provided troops to Afghanistan and hosts US troops in Abu Dhabi has in recent years been dogging Washington for the F-35 -- they want 50 of 'em. In Trump's last dayze in the WH he willy nilly approved this only to be rescinded right away by Biden. The US is concerned the UAE has Chinese communication technology and related interests that would conflict with super confidential features of the F-35. Indeed, Washington pulled its licensed F-35 manufacture and purchase from Turkey in Turkey after Erdogan bought the NATO incompatible Russian S-400 air defense system (that Ukraine has since blown up in Crimea using HIMARs and ATACMs). Erdogan ended up with the highly upgraded F-16 Viper, Boeing having taken the name Viper from what F-16 pilots call it.

Last year Washington sent a reinforcement squadron of F-35s to Israel for expanded F-35s recon and patrols but recently withdrew it given Netanyahu continues to look like a barbarian much to the detriment of the United States throughout the region.
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The J31 I don't believe is in production or fully finalized for design. That would be about 1 year old info.

The Tejas is a plane most in the Indian airforce don't want
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The J31 I don't believe is in production or fully finalized for design. That would be about 1 year old info.

The Tejas is a plane most in the Indian airforce don't want
Click to expand...
I didn't say the Chinese make believe J-31 stealth fighter was being discussed with Egypt or anyone, or that anything about the J-31 ghost plane existed. Given your pronouncement post I'll say now and specifically Egypt knows it won't ever be on the USA list of countries to get the F-35 so Cairo is looking elsewhere. And that Cairo needs to start saving its pennies now.

Sanctions have retarded the production of the Russian Su-57 stealth fighter to include totally missing the measly 24 of 'em promised and due last month, plus the sucker needs a better engine and the Kremlin says there will be no export models. While we know going back to the Cold War the Russian flaw is to say they have things they don't have, the Chinese deeply seated flaw is to "play the long game" meaning they have nothing of it now and they won't have anything of it for a long time by which it will be way too late if ever.

As to the India Air Force indigenous Tejas Mk1A stealth fighter the country's production capacity is being expanded which is the holdup, or the slowdown. Egypt is but one foreign buyer making serious moves to get its hands on the sucker which is still a time away.
 
gman said:
Unspoken consequences of unconditional backing of Israel. The article doesn't say so, but a blind man can see what's behind the reasoning. This doesn't bode well for the US arms industry. This may be the precursor to future arms deals in the Middle East.
Click to expand...
Not the first-time other countries jumped from supplier to supplier. Some politics, some gamesmanship, I remember when the Soviet war equipment was all the Arab states bought. It didn't do so well and the switch to Western equipment.
It will be ok... ✌️
 
Tangmo said:
I didn't say the Chinese make believe J-31 stealth fighter was being discussed with Egypt or anyone, or that anything about the J-31 ghost plane existed. Given your pronouncement post I'll say now and specifically Egypt knows it won't ever be on the USA list of countries to get the F-35 so Cairo is looking elsewhere. And that Cairo needs to start saving its pennies now.

Sanctions have retarded the production of the Russian Su-57 stealth fighter to include totally missing the measly 24 of 'em promised and due last month, plus the sucker needs a better engine and the Kremlin says there will be no export models. While we know going back to the Cold War the Russian flaw is to say they have things they don't have, the Chinese deeply seated flaw is to "play the long game" meaning they have nothing of it now and they won't have anything of it for a long time by which it will be way too late if ever.

As to the India Air Force indigenous Tejas Mk1A stealth fighter the country's production capacity is being expanded which is the holdup, or the slowdown. Egypt is but one foreign buyer making serious moves to get its hands on the sucker which is still a time away.
Click to expand...


The Tejas mk1a is not a stealth fighter. Designed in the 80s it is to replace the mig 21 bison that India still flys. Likely a good light fighter probably on par with the SK light fighter ( which is vastly newer and based on a trainer jet)
 
This could be a factor.
The price per unit of the J-10C is estimated at around $40-50 million, compared to the F-16's cost of approximately $65-70 million for the latest variants (F-16V).
 
notquiteright said:
Not the first-time other countries jumped from supplier to supplier. Some politics, some gamesmanship, I remember when the Soviet war equipment was all the Arab states bought. It didn't do so well and the switch to Western equipment.
It will be ok... ✌️
Click to expand...
I'd almost expect Egypt anyway will end up with the F-16 Viper.

Production of the India plane is slow because of a weak capacity that is taking time to construct. The Chinese J-31 is a phantom while Egypt has bought only 12 of the Chinese bargain basement J-10C. Production of the Russian Su-57 is crippled because of sanctions by the US, EU and even Switzerland with all their bankers who have chosen up sides. The French will sell their Rafale to anyone who'll pay cash on the barrel but Egypt is loathe to put all their eggs in one basket.

I recall watching a documentary on the F-16 in which a pilot said, "The F-16 is the best place to be when you're being shot at. You can fix that in a flip and a click."
 
Doesn't Egypt have a couple hundred vipers? A dozen or so J10s is hardly a strong start.

Also what happened to the Rafale deal?
 
uptower said:
Doesn't Egypt have a couple hundred vipers? A dozen or so J10s is hardly a strong start.

Also what happened to the Rafale deal?
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The Egyptian AF has 11 tactical fighter wings that have 13 Squadrons of the light F-16s, two of heavy MiG-29Ms, four of Rafales, two of Alpha Jets and two of Mirage 2000s. These are five air forces within the country's air force that reduces its interoperability from equipment and parts, training, facilities, command and control, tactical effectiveness, upgrades, cost effectiveness and so on. Cairo needs to unify its air force.

Rather than upgrade the hundreds of F-16 Fighting Falcons to Vipers, Cairo wants to buy new planes for what is the largest total military force in the ME. The WH has agreed to the upgrade of some or all F-16s to Vipers but it isn't likely to submit the recommendation to Congress just yet. All the same it could seem Cairo buying 12 Chinese F-10C bargain basement light fighters got Washington off the dime.

I reference the WH more recent decision to provide the heavier F-15 Eagle III to Egypt which has all but lit up the board and exploded fireworks at the HQ of the EAF. Cairo has wanted the F-15 Eagle since the final pyramid was completed so this F-15 tentative approval is a very big deal for everyone -- to include very bad news for Russia and China....forget Iran on this one. Cairo has wanted the F-15 since its first models took to the air in 1972. It's no skin off Egypt's back either given Cairo gets $1.3 billion in US military cash assistance annually to use buying US military equipment ha. Neither Russia nor China can or want to do this that is a USA masterstroke of strategic genius. It's part of the realpolitik of how we won the Cold War.

Israel which had always opposed any F-15 deal for Egypt is fine with it these dayze given their decades old peace treaty with Cairo. Israel is also grateful to Washington for the 3 squadrons of the F-35-I Adir most advanced and secretive F-35 in the US arsenal and that have gone into the IDF Air Force, all 75 of 'em (for billions of bucks). Both Egypt and Israel seem pleased from the standpoint of each. It also helps the US will have complete control of the codes to the F-15s which means the EAF can't do anything with 'em without US prior approval. The operative code can be turned off at any time.


Egypt has also ordered 66 new Rafales from France but deliveries are coming in twos and threes so that's not accomplishing much if anything. And the Rafales are the export model which means no long range air to air missiles which the US and Israel oppose for Egypt fighters to now include the heavy attack fighter the F-15 Eagle III that gets to 30,000 feet or 9 miles in 60 seconds.
 
Well, if Egypt wants to buy a plane that's half everything and full nothing, that's their business.
 
I suspect that the Chinese have out bribed the USA here...

Egyptian officials are not known for impartial behavior.
 
Egypt and other Arab countries in the ME are used to taking what they can get.

UAE which sent troops to Afghanistan and hosts US troops in Abu Dhabi can't get the F-35 at any generous ask. Morocco which is a long time US supporter will get some second hand F-16 Fighting Falcons from Denmark and love it. The Italian military that is the NATO direct contact with the Egyptian military has interested Cairo in the new Italian fighter jet that no one has ever heard of cares for outside the global MIC people.

Egypt has the export model of the French Rafale which means no long range air to air missiles; the WH has agreed to the heavy F-15 Eagle III fighter to Egypt under the same condition. This is because the Pentagon takes seriously its self assigned and long time role of combat plane peacekeeper of the skies over the ME. Indeed the Pentagon will keep total control of the F-15 operation code to ensure Egypt doesn't start anything on its own, that is, without prior approval by Washington.

Saddam's Iraq had less capable export models of Russian Soviet Red Army weapons, air defenses and other technologies that as we saw live on CNN lasted for about 10 minutes in Desert Storm and again in Gulf War II. In contrast Iraq and Iran fought a war from 1980-89 that was likened to the trench and gas warfare of WW I to include slow and outdated air forces.

ME rulers love their Western tanks and led by Qatar, Bahrain, SA, Turkey which is not ME of course, among others have more than 1000 German Leopard 2 variants and nearly 1000 Abrahms M-60 variants. These variants are not the top of the line of each tank. There are cables attached besides (however) and as it were. Germany in cooperation with the US prohibited Turkey using its Leopards against the Kurds which Erdogan honored and did not do or else -- or else Turkey would lose maintenance, access to parts and other German support of the Leopards. Washington itself spanked Al Maliki for giving some M-60s to his paramilitaries that fell into ISIS hands and for using F-16s in urban settings which were violations of numerous limitations that came with each deal.

In the ME they take what they can get to include some of 'em trying workarounds of numerous conditions and that rarely succeed. Russia is out of it due to its losses in Ukraine that never end and its inability to provide any support to its existing and fading weapons systems and technical personnel. Beijing and its bargain basement has nothing of interest throughout the ME and won't have anything of interest now or ever.
 
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The Russians are no longer a factor in ME arms sales and support for numerous reasons. Beijing hasn't ever been a player and won't ever be an arms factor anywhere in the ME. The US and the French provide for the needs of ME rulers.

The war in Ukraine is consuming the Russian military in every respect and there's no end in sight for 'em. Existing Russian weapons systems in certain ME countries are simply wearing out, lack parts and maintenance capacity, while Russian weapons technical personnel in the ME have been shipped into the Ukraine war grinder.

Numerous sanctions of Russia by the EU and USA have retarded production of Russian arms to include for export, meaning the Su-57 stealth fighter is out of the ME picture too. Egypt never paid for and Russia never sent a bunch of Su-29s Cairo had ordered then quit on due to the certainty of US and EU sanctions on Cairo.

Indeed ME rulers take what weapons they can get from the US and France to include the standard personal gratuities that are a fact of life over there. This tried and true method is one of the ways that enabled the USA to win the Cold War against the Soviet Russians who only fools and saps thought were 10 feet tall. In the 21st century it's the same same about China that's already falling apart by itself too. Yet fools, saps and suckers never go away.

Beijing has absolutely nothing of any weapons interest to anyone in the ME for any reason to include its cheap bargain basement pricing. Beijing's "tea money" is focused on Africa where there were a half dozen so called "Covid Coups" by armed forces that removed Beijing sycophant rulers. It's still true that one should never let a good crisis go to waste. Kudos to the US Africa Command.

Actually no one should get me wrong because I love the ignorant. They make things so much easier.
 
Egypt has signed a deal with China to purchase J-10C fighter jets on August 19, 2024, marking a significant shift in its defense procurement strategy. The agreement makes Egypt the second international customer for the J-10C after Pakistan and aims to replace Egypt’s aging F-16 fleet with these modern multirole fighters. This decision comes after Egypt rejected offers from the United States and Russia, including a proposal to upgrade its existing F-16s to the F-16V standard. The move reflects Egypt’s efforts to diversify its military suppliers and modernize its air force capabilities, moving away from its traditional reliance on Western, particularly American, military equipment.

defense-update.com

Egypt Opts for Chinese J-10C Fighters - Defense Update:

Egypt Opts for Chinese J-10C Fighters, Shifting Away from US Military Hardware Egypt has signed a deal with China to purchase J-10C fighter jets on August 19, 2024, marking a significant shift in its defense procurement strategy. The agreement makes Egypt the second international customer for...
defense-update.com defense-update.com
 
Egypt bought 12 of the Chinese J-10C light fighter aircraft with no further purchasing activity being discussed or agreed. The Chinese J-31 fifth generation fighter is not in production as the PLA Air Force has only the prototype undergoing testing and trials for needed corrections and adjustments over the next several years of its development.

Egypt is looking at the USAF F-15 EX III heavy strike fighter, the India Tejas Mk1A heavy advanced fighter to include a Maintenance, Research, and Overhaul facility in Egypt, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Italian EF-2000.


Egypt is enhancing its Dassault Mirage 2000 fleet through the acquisition of 12 of the aircraft retired by Qatar. Some of the UAE’s Mirage 2000-9s will be replaced by new Rafales, while 34 of the UAE Mirage fighters have been earmarked for longtime US supporter Morocco. Egypt is purchasing the new Rafale F4 which increases the Egyptian Rafale fleet --- 54 of which have been delivered or are on order to 72.

The US wants a linkage between Egypt receiving the F-15-EX III and the transfer of Egypt’s remaining MiG-29M/M2s with their R-77 missiles to Ukraine. Because of Western sanctions against Russia and the grinding war in Ukraine, Russian arms supplies and personnel expertise to the ME have gone bust. Cairo doesn't have to humor Putin any more with further arms purchases because they've evaporated. The US has no sanctions against Chinese arms to the ME because there aren't any to speak of past, present, future.

The Egyptians and Italians are close to a package $24bn deal for 24-48 of the Italian EF-2000 fighters, 24 Leonardo M346 Master training aircraft, 20-24 more AW-149 medium lift utility helos as well as four and it looks like six FREMM heavy Naval frigates, 20 Falaj-II class patrol boats to be co-manufactured in Alexandria Shipyard, and a Telespazio radar-equipped military surveillance and reconnaissance satellite. Egypt having NATO as its front yard neighbor interacts with Italy as its NATO direct contact with the Alliance. China militarily remains very far away with very high mountains between.
 
VanceMack said:
Per the article, Egypt has been diversifying for over a decade. They bought Russian MIGs a decade ago and French fighters as well. If its a political move its a dumb one, since the jets they are buying arent as good as the F16V.
Click to expand...

I guess that makes you less dependent on other countries, but creates a severe supply chain problem.
 
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