Duty to intervene: Floyd cops spoke up but didn’t step in

[Rogue Valley]

Duty to intervene: Floyd cops spoke up but didn’t step in

Derek Chauvin, Alexander Kueng, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao.

6/7/20
Minneapolis was among several cities that had policies on the books requiring police officers to intervene to stop colleagues from using unreasonable force, but that didn’t save George Floyd and law enforcement experts say such rules will always run up against entrenched police culture and the fear of being ostracized and branded a “rat.” The most senior officer on the scene was a training officer, Derek Chauvin, a 19-year police veteran who was seen putting his knee on the back of the black man’s neck despite his cries that he couldn’t breathe. Even though lawyers for the rookie officers (Lane/Keung) say both men voiced their concerns about Chauvin’s actions in the moment, they ultimately failed to stop him. Chauvin is now charged with second-degree murder, and his three fellow officers are charged with aiding and abetting. “This is a lesson for every cop in America: If you see something that is wrong, you need to step in,” said Joseph Giacalone, a former New York police sergeant who now teaches at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. “There are a lot of gray areas in policing, but this was crystal clear. … You’re better off being ostracized by the group than going to prison for murder.”

Lane held Floyd’s legs and Kueng held his back while Chauvin placed his knee on Floyd’s head and neck. That’s when Floyd repeatedly said “I can’t breathe, “Mama” and “please.” At one point, Floyd said, “I’m about to die.” Nevertheless, Chauvin, Lane and Kueng didn’t move. And a fourth officer, Tou Thao, continued standing nearby keeping onlookers back. Moments later, Lane asked “should we roll him on his side?” Chauvin replied: “No, staying put where we got him.” Despite his concerns, Lane didn’t do anything to help Floyd or to reduce the force being used on him, the complaint said. Neither he, nor Keung and Chauvin moved from their positions until an ambulance came and took Floyd to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead. Chuck Wexler, executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum, a Washington-based think tank, said getting officers to take action, sometimes against more experienced colleagues, is at the heart of stopping abuses by police.

There are two fundamental obstacles to implementing meaningful police reforms. The first obstacle is a police culture that views police officers as part of a closed family - in this respect similar to a mafia family. Much like the Cosa Nostra, police departments operate under a credo similar to Omerta - a code of silence. Any police officer who reports another officer for police brutality will be ostracized with an implicit threat that fellow officers will not be in any hurry to assist him/her if they should need immediate assistance. No officer will want to team up on patrol with the "rat". Informing on another officer is an indelible (yet invisible) disgrace that will mark the officer forever. The other obstacle is police unions that have grown very powerful. The union will protect an officer from reprimand/termination no matter what. With union organization, the Buffalo police department turned out in front of court to cheer the two Buffalo police officers charged with pushing a 75 year old man to the ground and ignoring the pool of blood under his head. Police union bosses oftentimes also have a cozy relationship with the civilian leadership of a city, making campaign donations to city managers etc. One other sticky point is that police officers while on duty enjoy immunity from being named as a defendant in a civil lawsuit. The city/county is the entity on the hook for legal fees and civil judgement's awarded a plaintiff.

 

[Drawdown]

Duty to intervene: Floyd cops spoke up but didn’t step in

Derek Chauvin, Alexander Kueng, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao.



There are two fundamental obstacles to implementing meaningful police reforms. The first obstacle is a police culture that views police officers as part of a closed family - in this respect similar to a mafia family. Much like the Cosa Nostra, police departments operate under a credo similar to Omerta - a code of silence. Any police officer who reports another officer for police brutality will be ostracized with an implicit threat that fellow officers will not be in any hurry to assist him/her if they should need immediate assistance. No officer will want to team up on patrol with the "rat". Informing on another officer is an indelible (yet invisible) disgrace that will mark the officer forever. The other obstacle is police unions that have grown very powerful. The union will protect an officer from reprimand/termination no matter what. With union organization, the Buffalo police department turned out in front of court to cheer the two Buffalo police officers charged with pushing a 75 year old man to the ground and ignoring the pool of blood under his head. Police union bosses oftentimes also have a cozy relationship with the civilian leadership of a city, making campaign donations to city managers etc. One other sticky point is that police officers while on duty enjoy immunity from being named as a defendant in a civil lawsuit. The city/county is the entity on the hook for legal fees and civil judgement's awarded a plaintiff.

I am not aware of a single place that elects its city manager.

 

[bluesmoke]

Duty to intervene: Floyd cops spoke up but didn’t step in

Derek Chauvin, Alexander Kueng, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao.



There are two fundamental obstacles to implementing meaningful police reforms. The first obstacle is a police culture that views police officers as part of a closed family - in this respect similar to a mafia family. Much like the Cosa Nostra, police departments operate under a credo similar to Omerta - a code of silence. Any police officer who reports another officer for police brutality will be ostracized with an implicit threat that fellow officers will not be in any hurry to assist him/her if they should need immediate assistance. No officer will want to team up on patrol with the "rat". Informing on another officer is an indelible (yet invisible) disgrace that will mark the officer forever. The other obstacle is police unions that have grown very powerful. The union will protect an officer from reprimand/termination no matter what. With union organization, the Buffalo police department turned out in front of court to cheer the two Buffalo police officers charged with pushing a 75 year old man to the ground and ignoring the pool of blood under his head. Police union bosses oftentimes also have a cozy relationship with the civilian leadership of a city, making campaign donations to city managers etc. One other sticky point is that police officers while on duty enjoy immunity from being named as a defendant in a civil lawsuit. The city/county is the entity on the hook for legal fees and civil judgement's awarded a plaintiff.

Can’t do much about the police culture but we can do much about the structure that allows police culture to grow in its own, fortified, petri dish.

Police are its own power, separate from anything else. Furthermore, a LEO is the most powerful single individual walking in America. They can do practically anything, get away with it, and they know it. That is the truth.

I don’t go with restricting police unions, free speech rights, relationships with civilian leadership or campaign contributions. Their various immunities are another matter.

Making policy changes to do with such as chokeholds, neck restraints, etc. and putting them into the Police manual, training and education on dealing with situations as with Floyd and others involving unarmed individuals, changing responsibility for investigation and prosecution of police involved deaths from local to state and/or fed jurisdiction must be done or cops will be, as they rarely are, held accountable for incidents similar to Floyd’s. Take a good look at the add’l protections LEOs get that regular American citizens don’t in the LEO Bill of Rights, too. None of the above requires anything to do with race.

 

[swing_voter]

Duty to intervene: Floyd cops spoke up but didn’t step in

Derek Chauvin, Alexander Kueng, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao.



There are two fundamental obstacles to implementing meaningful police reforms. The first obstacle is a police culture that views police officers as part of a closed family - in this respect similar to a mafia family. Much like the Cosa Nostra, police departments operate under a credo similar to Omerta - a code of silence. Any police officer who reports another officer for police brutality will be ostracized with an implicit threat that fellow officers will not be in any hurry to assist him/her if they should need immediate assistance. No officer will want to team up on patrol with the "rat". Informing on another officer is an indelible (yet invisible) disgrace that will mark the officer forever. The other obstacle is police unions that have grown very powerful. The union will protect an officer from reprimand/termination no matter what. With union organization, the Buffalo police department turned out in front of court to cheer the two Buffalo police officers charged with pushing a 75 year old man to the ground and ignoring the pool of blood under his head. Police union bosses oftentimes also have a cozy relationship with the civilian leadership of a city, making campaign donations to city managers etc. One other sticky point is that police officers while on duty enjoy immunity from being named as a defendant in a civil lawsuit. The city/county is the entity on the hook for legal fees and civil judgement's awarded a plaintiff.

"The first obstacle is a police culture that views police officers as part of a closed family - in this respect similar to a mafia family. Much like the Cosa Nostra, police departments operate under a credo similar to Omerta - a code of silence. "


The police are the mafia?

War is peace?

Freedom is slavery

Ignorance is strength.

--1984

 

[Rogue Valley]

"The first obstacle is a police culture that views police officers as part of a closed family - in this respect similar to a mafia family. Much like the Cosa Nostra, police departments operate under a credo similar to Omerta - a code of silence. "


The police are the mafia?

War is peace?

Freedom is slavery

Ignorance is strength.

--1984

Anyone with even tangential experience with police culture knows about their code of silence.

 

[Rogue Valley]

I am not aware of a single place that elects its city manager.

A minor mistake is what you get out of all that?

No wonder you're a Trumper. Can't see the forest for the tree.

 

[Drawdown]

A minor mistake is what you get out of all that?

No wonder you're a Trumper. Can't see the forest for the tree.

The forest is that your propaganda has been discredited by your ignorance of American local government, Comrade.

 

[Ignatius]

Duty to intervene: Floyd cops spoke up but didn’t step in

Derek Chauvin, Alexander Kueng, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao.



There are two fundamental obstacles to implementing meaningful police reforms. The first obstacle is a police culture that views police officers as part of a closed family - in this respect similar to a mafia family. Much like the Cosa Nostra, police departments operate under a credo similar to Omerta - a code of silence. Any police officer who reports another officer for police brutality will be ostracized with an implicit threat that fellow officers will not be in any hurry to assist him/her if they should need immediate assistance. No officer will want to team up on patrol with the "rat". Informing on another officer is an indelible (yet invisible) disgrace that will mark the officer forever. The other obstacle is police unions that have grown very powerful. The union will protect an officer from reprimand/termination no matter what. With union organization, the Buffalo police department turned out in front of court to cheer the two Buffalo police officers charged with pushing a 75 year old man to the ground and ignoring the pool of blood under his head. Police union bosses oftentimes also have a cozy relationship with the civilian leadership of a city, making campaign donations to city managers etc. One other sticky point is that police officers while on duty enjoy immunity from being named as a defendant in a civil lawsuit. The city/county is the entity on the hook for legal fees and civil judgement's awarded a plaintiff.

I have no idea what its like being a cop. I have no idea what its like facing the possibility of being killed every time I go to work. The fact they protect one another is not at all surprising as one day a cop may need to put his or her life in the hands of a fellow officer. That doesn't bother me. What does bother me with the police is the unquestionable authority they think they are entitled to. If they tell me to sit down they think they have an absolute right to make me do it. That is where this abuse of power comes from. I seriously question that the cop who killed Floyd was a racist. I think he was infected with something far more sinister, that he could do what he pleased while wearing a badge.

 

[Rogue Valley]

The forest is that your propaganda has been discredited by your ignorance of American local government, Comrade.

We don't have a city manager where I live Trumper.

We have a Mayor which is an elected position.

THAT is your rebuttal to police brutality and systemic racism?

Run along back to FOX.

 

[Drawdown]

We don't have a city manager where I live Trumper.

We have a Mayor which is an elected position.

THAT is your rebuttal to police brutality and systemic racism?

Run along back to FOX.

LOL we have a mayor and a city manager and neither one is elected. Both are chosen by the city council. now run on back to your handler for a better talking point, comradski :lol:

 

[maxparrish]

Duty to intervene: Floyd cops spoke up but didn’t step in

Derek Chauvin, Alexander Kueng, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao.



There are two fundamental obstacles to implementing meaningful police reforms. The first obstacle is a police culture that views police officers as part of a closed family - in this respect similar to a mafia family. Much like the Cosa Nostra, police departments operate under a credo similar to Omerta - a code of silence. Any police officer who reports another officer for police brutality will be ostracized with an implicit threat that fellow officers will not be in any hurry to assist him/her if they should need immediate assistance. No officer will want to team up on patrol with the "rat". Informing on another officer is an indelible (yet invisible) disgrace that will mark the officer forever. The other obstacle is police unions that have grown very powerful. The union will protect an officer from reprimand/termination no matter what. With union organization, the Buffalo police department turned out in front of court to cheer the two Buffalo police officers charged with pushing a 75 year old man to the ground and ignoring the pool of blood under his head. Police union bosses oftentimes also have a cozy relationship with the civilian leadership of a city, making campaign donations to city managers etc. One other sticky point is that police officers while on duty enjoy immunity from being named as a defendant in a civil lawsuit. The city/county is the entity on the hook for legal fees and civil judgement's awarded a plaintiff.

I think it unrealistic to expect those taking direction from a higher ranked officer to "mutiny" and physically battle the ranking officer over custody. To do so without overwhelming cause would effectively end their careers (minimally), especially that of rookies on probation.

Indeed, if one of those officers had attacked Chauvin, or pulled a gun on him to get him off Floyd, when Floyd was still responsive rest assured that officer would not only have been fired, but likely charged with assault by the department - Floyd's survival being "proof" that the rookie over-reacted (that or Floyd's eventual death from other causes also as proof that the rookie over-reacted).

My advice to the critics: don't be stupid. As long as there is room for judgement, expecting the others to challenge the authority figure for control of the perp is unrealistic.

 

[Thoreau72]

The forest is that your propaganda has been discredited by your ignorance of American local government, Comrade.

His observations and comments have been made most valid by his knowledge of local government in the US.

 

[Drawdown]

His observations and comments have been made most valid by his knowledge of local government in the US.

No, when you allege that city managers that aren't elected are being bribed with campaign donations isn't "knowledge".

 

[Thoreau72]

No, when you allege that city managers that aren't elected are being bribed with campaign donations isn't "knowledge".

You're nit-picking.

 

[Drawdown]

You're nit-picking.

No if I were nit picking I would point out that the US Supreme Court has consistently held that there is no duty to protect by the police except in two very limited circumstances---when the person is institutionalized or when there is a "special relationship" that has not been clearly defined, and that the violations of that duty are a civil matter, not a criminal one so 3 of the 4 officers are wrongfully facing criminal prosecution under a theory that them not carrying out a duty they do not have makes them criminal co-conspirators.

 

[Thoreau72]

No if I were nit picking I would point out that the US Supreme Court has consistently held that there is no duty to protect by the police except in two very limited circumstances---when the person is institutionalized or when there is a "special relationship" that has not been clearly defined, and that the violations of that duty are a civil matter, not a criminal one so 3 of the 4 officers are wrongfully facing criminal prosecution under a theory that them not carrying out a duty they do not have makes them criminal co-conspirators.

You were nitpicking in your criticism of the other poster.

As to what you've said here, I understand your point regarding what the courts have said, but the fact remains that the other 3 police officers demonstrated an absence of conscience.

In that, they are typical. I do not think they should be imprisoned, but an administrative punishment of some sort is in order. If they do not know right from wrong they should not be wearing a badge.

 

[Drawdown]

You were nitpicking in your criticism of the other poster.

As to what you've said here, I understand your point regarding what the courts have said, but the fact remains that the other 3 police officers demonstrated an absence of conscience.

In that, they are typical. I do not think they should be imprisoned, but an administrative punishment of some sort is in order. If they do not know right from wrong they should not be wearing a badge.

That "other poster" elected to entitle his thread with the phrase "Duty to Intervene". No such duty existed.

 

[Thoreau72]

That "other poster" elected to entitle his thread with the phrase "Duty to Intervene". No such duty existed.

Not in this graceless age, no. The population density of the human species is extremely high, and likely not sustainable.

Some religions see the equivalent of a duty to intervene, a duty to help others. I think the Christian religion makes such a claim, or sees such a duty. Perhaps it would be called a virtue of some sort.

IMO humanity makes such a demand, looking out for one's fellow man.

 

[Drawdown]

Not in this graceless age, no. The population density of the human species is extremely high, and likely not sustainable.

Some religions see the equivalent of a duty to intervene, a duty to help others. I think the Christian religion makes such a claim, or sees such a duty. Perhaps it would be called a virtue of some sort.

IMO humanity makes such a demand, looking out for one's fellow man.

And 3 officers are facing criminal charges for failing to do something they were not legally required to do. Are you arguing they should be put in prison for daring to offend Christianity instead of breaking an actual law?

 

[Thoreau72]

And 3 officers are facing criminal charges for failing to do something they were not legally required to do. Are you arguing they should be put in prison for daring to offend Christianity instead of breaking an actual law?

No. As I've noted on other threads, IMO an administrative remedy/punishment would be the proper solution to the problem. Hopefully they have learned something good from this bad experience.

 

[Rogue Valley]

You're nit-picking.

Exactly. That's all he has. I've never lived in a town with a "city manager". However, Mayor or City Manager titles doesn't change the fact that the 3 cops did nothing to intervene. They were taught about this duty in the police academy. They were tested and graduated. When push came to shove, they chose to support the "police culture" of silence rather than honor their oaths and duty. Choices have consequence. In this case, Aiding and Abetting 2nd Degree Murder, a felony with a possible sentence of 40 years.

A criminal charge of "aiding and abetting" or accessory can usually be brought against anyone who helps in the commission of a crime, though legal distinctions vary by state. In Minnesota, a person is criminally liable for a crime committed by another if the person intentionally aids, advises, hires, counsels, or conspires with or otherwise procures the other to commit the crime. Even though we all saw the murder of George Floyd by Derek Chauvin and the accessory role of the other 3 officers on video, it is very difficult to obtain a conviction against [former] police officers who were on duty at the time.