Dozens feared killed after Israeli tank fires on crowd waiting for aid in Gaza

[oneworld2]

In other words you spoke out your ass.

And that's the best you can do

 

[Fledermaus]

And that's the best you can do

Projection

 

[oneworld2]

Projection

^^^ lol

 

[Fledermaus]

^^^ lol

Child like reaponse to an accurate statement.

 

[oneworld2]

Child like reaponse to an accurate statement.

Your posts are bigoted tripe, consistently so and with a huge slice of childishness in many of them, so yeah, they are dismissed on those same grounds.

 

[Fledermaus]

Your posts are bigoted tripe, consistently so and with a huge slice of childishness in many of them, so yeah, they are dismissed on those same grounds.

You find all* criticism of Hamas "bigoted tripe".

Interesting.


* Slight hyperbole

 

[oneworld2]

You find all* criticism of Hamas "bigoted tripe".

Interesting.


* Slight hyperbole

I just checked, you haven't actually posted a single post about the thread subject and we're 20 pages in. What are the chances?

I just know when the view is born out of bigotry and not from a more objective analysis and yours is definitely born from bigotry.

Example?

ONE Palestinian makes a statement about the deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians and it is a definite policy.

Dozens of Israelis make genocidal statements but there is no genocide.

This plays out in all your posts here.

There is no initial Israeli state terrorism to which the Palestinian group terrorism is a response.

And on and on and hence it becomes very very obvious where this comes from.

 

[Fledermaus]

I just checked, you haven't actually posted a single post about the thread subject and we're 20 pages in. What are the chances?

I just know when the view is born out of bigotry and not from a more objective analysis and yours is definitely born from bigotry.

Example?

ONE Palestinian makes a statement about the deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians and it is a definite policy.

Dozens of Israelis make genocidal statements but there is no genocide.

This plays out in all your posts here.

There is no initial Israeli state terrorism to which the Palestinian group terrorism is a response.

And on and on and hence it becomes very very obvious where this comes from.

Where have all* the Grad122, Qassam, mortars, etc. been fired at:

a Civilian sector's
b Military targets



* Practically

 

[oneworld2]

Where have all* the Grad122, Qassam, mortars, etc. been fired at:

a Civilian sector's
b Military targets



* Practically

Weak again

 

[Fledermaus]

Weak again

Fledermaus said:
Where have all* the Grad122, Qassam, mortars, etc. been fired at:

a Civilian sector's
b Military targets



* Practically

 

[oneworld2]

Fledermaus said:
Where have all* the Grad122, Qassam, mortars, etc. been fired at:

a Civilian sector's
b Military targets



* Practically

I know what you said and why you said it and still think your activity here is hopelessly weak

 

[Fledermaus]

I know what you said and why you said it and still think your activity here is hopelessly weak

Not an answer to the question asked.

Where have all* the Grad122, Qassam, mortars, etc. been fired at:

a Civilian sector's
b Military targets



* Practically

 

[Gardener]

Child like reaponse to an accurate statement.

Once you realize that "one world" means the entire world living under the jack boot of Islamists, everything he says makes perfect sense.

 

[Felis Leo]

Hey, cpwill, you went to a lot of trouble to write a long statement, and I find it fitting to write a long response in turn.

I understand wanting multi-source validation of something in a highly charged scenario. Nor do I fault GHF for not disclosing it's donors - many private charities do the same, not least in places and areas where donating to a charity or non-profit can result in other's bringing physical violence or harassment against you.

Small dollar donors, sure. But who the Hell is actually funding a bunch of armed mercenaries delivering aid and why shouldn't we know?

Respectfully, however, you (and the media in general) should apply at least the same standard of skepticism that you (and they) apply towards US-backed and led aid organizations against even more charged (and outlandish) HAMAS claims, such as the OP.
But, of course, that is a bridge too far for our pro-HAMAS media establishment.

I used to fall into this too, but I have come to realize that it was inane. I refuse to accept that every volunteer Western doctor or Palestinian civil servant working in Gaza is a member of the Hamas death cult just because she has to work under their auspices in order to care for the injured and dying civilians of Gaza. I will assume that no more than a doctor in ISIS-captured territory in Iraq or Syria, working under the auspices of the short-lived Islamic State government delivering care to their conquered subjects was a bona fide member of ISIS, even if their paycheck was issued by the Islamic State.

Hm. Two things here:

1. To a significant extent, you are describing "War" and labeling it "Genocide", or a defense of the conclusion that Genocide is occurring. For example: the US put sharp restrictions on journalists in Iraq, and Ukraine refuses to allow journalists in Red Zones now.

I am aware. And it is unacceptable when we do it too, because we do it largely for the same reasons: To hide our sometimes-accidental, sometime-purposeful atrocities from the public eye so that military operations and the President who ordered them do not lose public support. Graphic images of dead children killed in a refugee camp bombed by an F-35 or shot through the head by an IDF sniper tend to lose a lot of rally-round-the-flag energy from people who have souls.

 

[Felis Leo]

I cannot recall if you are a veteran of major combat operations - I've done tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and can tell you that "indifference towards civilian deaths" is pretty much standard for your average warfighter. What matters is whether the system is designed to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties, and is willing to punish soldiers when they can be shown to have wantonly abused civilian personnel or facilities. By those measures, in many ways, Israel outperforms the US, UK, and other forces I served with.

I just do not see any evidence of this anymore, cpwill. Like, at all. I mean, in years past I would have argued the same thing because there was a modicum of discipline and accountability that was maintained within the IDF. But now? We do not see any discipline for atrocities or perfidy committed by Israeli soldiers in Gaza. We hear of quick investigations that clear accused soldiers of wrongdoing.

Did nearly half the soldiers serving with you want to murder all Arab civilians that they came across? Not simply show indifference to their deaths or graveyard humor, but just tell you regularly with no humor "We need to kill all of these animals."? I'm sure there were a few. But I would be surprised if fully half of your squad, platoon or company voiced the same opinion with dead seriousness.

Because that is Israel right now. Latest polling shows that 82% of Jewish Israelis want Palestinians expelled from the Gaza Strip, i.e. ethnically cleansed from the strip. 47% believe that all Palestinians in the Gaza strip should be killed down to the last child.

Nearly half of Israelis support army killing all Palestinians in Gaza, poll finds

An overwhelming number of Israelis, including seculars, back the forced transfer of Palestinians from Gaza and Israel

www.middleeasteye.net

I mean, this is monstrous, first of all. If public polls had been done in Nazi Germany at the outbreak of World War 2 in 1939, I imagine that this would have been the level of German public support of expulsion and mass murder of the Jews, respectively. It should prompt no small amount of public soul searching among far more than a handful of a Israeli leftists.

Second of all, if these polls are even close to accurate, because Israel has an army consisting of drafted citizens, that means roughly half of front-line soldiers would be ready and willing to murder all Gazan civilians. So if you are a Gazan just trying to make sure you and your family live to see another day, guiding your children through another evacuation from a refugee camp or having to walk miles every day to go get food at a GHF center (because GHF refuses to deliver food at refugee camps), and you come across Israeli soldiers, you are just a coin-flip away from dealing with someone who is champing at the bit to kill you. The terror that any Gazan must feel just for the crime of being born in Gaza can only be compared to that of a Jew in the Warsaw or Lodz Ghettos in 1941, where Jews were often murdered at random by SS patrolmen.

And if you think the comparison of Israeli soldiers to SS patrolmen is hyperbolic, we know that IDF soldiers summarily execute people in Gaza all the time. My father taught me the aphorism that people generally do what they are in the habit of doing. From this life lesson, do you know what kind of person shoots unarmed paramedics in cold blood and buries them in a shallow mass grave? The kind of person who is used to shooting unarmed people in cold blood and burying them in shallow graves.

 

[Felis Leo]

2. With (true. real) respect, I find your self assessment ... un self-aware. You have discussed your "radicalization" over the last couple of years, driven (I believe) by economic questions (you seemed at one point IIRC particularly angry at Billionaires, but, I am open to correction on that). This changed your political community, it changed what feeds you listened to and trusted, and it changed your identity group.

Well, my anger comes from the fact that billionaires have bought up our elected officials on both sides and run the country for their sole benefit. Now perhaps you might say it was ever thus. I am given to disagree.

I began listening to leftist commentators and media organizations that did not shy away from showing me the atrocities committed by the Israeli military and the suffering endured by the people of Gaza, that the Israeli apologist media that I used to consume did. It was not so much being inundated with anti-Israel propaganda as it was a veil be lifted from my eyes and being presented with evidence and viewpoints I had never before seen and considered that once seen could not be unseen. If you are familiar with the reference, it was the equivalent of unintentionally stumbling into a basement to find myself looking at the decayed half-corpse of the shackled child of Omelas for the first time.

And how has that media, that community, overwhelmingly described Israel, when compared to actual intentional mass-civilian slaughters?

Coverage linking Israel with genocide has surged far beyond every other agreed-upon historical case of genocide across all examined outlets. In The New York Times, for example, articles pairing Israel and genocide reached levels more than nine times higher than the peak for Rwanda and nearly six times greater than for Darfur. Similarly, in The Guardian, more than 1 percent of all articles now reference both Israel and genocide—a frequency unmatched by any other pairing in recent decades.​

That might be a reasonable conclusion if I was a consumer of the New York Times and looked to them as a guide for media consumption. The problem is, I have come to despise the New York Times. I despise them more now than I did when I was a conservative for the same reason that I despise CNN, MSNBC and Fox News. It is a newspaper claiming to inform the people while it is effectively owned and run by a billionaires to stifle any mainstream discussion of things that threaten their wealth and power and that would benefit the working class, such as increasing the minimum wage, easing union formation, and expanding Medicare to all citizens of all ages.

The random, casual mass killings that Gazan civilians are subjected to at the hands of the Israeli military is calculated to make life so miserable that people will want to flee if they are given any opportunity. And this is only confirmed by statements made by the Israeli Prime Minister making reference to Hamas as "Amalek," which if you know your Biblical references was the perennial enemy of the Ancient Israelites, up until they were killed down to the last child. That is genocidal language evidencing genocidal intent, and explains the depraved indifference of the Israeli military with respect to inflicting civilian casualties during their military campaign in Gaza. Even if it verified to be true, I am just going to say that it is unacceptable to massacre over a hundred civilians and wound and maim hundreds more to kill one or two Hamas commanders. If you think that is an acceptable death toll, my question is how could you unless you do not care about Gazan lives?

And - suddenly- you find that your position on this issue has also changed - coincidentally! - to conform exactly to the standards and norms of your new compatriots and sources of information on separate issues? And you are not being influenced by them?

With - again, true, because it is so - respect, that would not be human.

Well, I am not saying I am not influenced by them. But even if I just consumed non-partisan media sources, like Reuters, I believe I would come to the same conclusion. Most people who are neutral on the issue and are not deeply invested think Israel is committing a genocide. There are anti-Semites who love using Israel as their wedge issue against Jews, and who would not care at all if another country was doing the exact same thing to a minority, like the Burmese of Myanmar did to the Rohingya. But that the Israelis starve and murder Gazan men, women and (most disgustingly) children with our weapons bought with the equivalent of rebates made up of our tax dollars is obscene.

 

[Aristaeus]

The former. The idea that the IDF has infinity munitions and is just looking for reasons to use them on any civilians they can find:

A) does not correspond with physical reality
B) does not correspond with facts on the ground

And yet it keeps happening. Another incident overnight has killed 59.

The Israeli military acknowledged firing in the area of the crowd in Khan Younis and said it was looking into the incident.

Musab Barbakh, 22, said he had arrived at the al-Tahlia junction at midnight. “I was sitting with a group of young men at around 8.30am when suddenly a shell landed right in the middle of us. I don’t know how I survived without any injuries. As I was running away, another shell hit another group of people. Then a missile was fired, followed by random gunfire,” he said.

 

[Aristaeus]

The independents who were at the actual aid distribution site itself (the American's who were running half the thing, for example) have denied HAMAS' claims about the shooting which is

Lol. You think the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is independent or a neutral source???

 

[Felis Leo]

@Felis Leo, I feel strongly that this is easy to mis or overcommunicate, and am not sure I said this with all the caveats I wish I could have. I worry it risks coming off poorly, as I am describing to you what I've seen in you, both in congruence with what you have described, and in addition. Please take any offense as inadvertent from awkward phrasing, v driven by intent or low opinion (as my opinion of you remains high).

Thank you, cpwill. My opinion of you remains high in turn.

My principles remain unchanged, but my understanding and framing has shifted. I do not want to overstate it, but from a purely emotional perspective, I imagine I feel not unlike a person who was brought up imbibing and believing in the principles of truth, justice, fair dealing, and basic human decency...but who lived in say, a society with chattel slavery like 1840s Virginia. The only way you could square the circle and maintain your self conception is by viewing the slaves as less than human and thus continue seeing yourself as a fundamentally good person who could live out all your principles yet still go home and beat a misbehaving slave viciously for talking back to his or her master. But once one saw the black slave as fundamentally no different in the quality of their humanity than the white master...it's over. You either accept and live with the fact that you are a hypocrite who is taking advantage of people no different than you except in the barest cosmetic sense for your own personal gain OR you uphold the principles.

If one truly views Palestinian lives and Israeli lives as fundamentally equal (and there was a time to my shame that I did not), then I cannot but see what is going on in front of me as the worst genocidal act carried out by a modern, law-governed democratic state in history, and certainly the worst genocide of my lifetime since Rwanda.