Don't Engage

[Somerville]

Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo is arguing that engaging with the Trump True Believers does little to move the needed conversations forward.

Don't Engage
A month ago I made a point that I and others have been making in various ways and in various contexts for years, but with renewed urgency. After Trump, Democrats must exercise great discipline not to operate within or engage with the bad faith arguments of Republicans who remain unwilling to come to grips with or take accountability for what they’ve done to the country. Today we see, predictability, the same pattern: it has taken Republicans only three or four days to resolve that they are the primary victims of the events of the last week. We’ve skipped ahead from the “stolen election” lie to claims Republicans are the new Jews being trained off to concentration camps because their months-old pet social network Parler because too radioactive for the hosting service it ran on.

apologies for linking to a subscriber-only piece but I believe this initial paragraph is sufficient as a debate starting point.

For several years now, we have read the words of some evangelical Christians ranting about how their religious freedoms are being taken away. It certainly looks like some on the right have decided to follow the same playbook. Reality has little connection with their rants - IMO.

 

[Mycroft]

Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo is arguing that engaging with the Trump True Believers does little to move the needed conversations forward.



apologies for linking to a subscriber-only piece but I believe this initial paragraph is sufficient as a debate starting point.

For several years now, we have read the words of some evangelical Christians ranting about how their religious freedoms are being taken away. It certainly looks like some on the right have decided to follow the same playbook. Reality has little connection with their rants - IMO.

In other words...

"Since we (leftists) succeeded with our election fraud, it's time to just stop talking about the issue altogether. And forget about even starting to talk about how we are going to destroy Trump supporters with lies and nonsense. We won, you lost, get over it. (And, if you keep talking about it, we'll shut you down like we did to Parler.)"

 

[jnug]

In other words...

"Since we (leftists) succeeded with our election fraud, it's time to just stop talking about the issue altogether. And forget about even starting to talk about how we are going to destroy Trump supporters with lies and nonsense. We won, you lost, get over it. (And, if you keep talking about it, we'll shut you down like we did to Parler.)"

When the Radical Right wants to talk about something real....let us know will ya'. I won't hold my breath as I don't have a death wish.

 

[mike2810]

In other words...

"Since we (leftists) succeeded with our election fraud, it's time to just stop talking about the issue altogether. And forget about even starting to talk about how we are going to destroy Trump supporters with lies and nonsense. We won, you lost, get over it. (And, if you keep talking about it, we'll shut you down like we did to Parler.)"

It seems the alleged claim of "election fraud" is not supported by the facts. The claim seems to only live within the minds of Team Trump, S. Powell, L. Wood and their supporters.

 

[Chomsky]

Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo is arguing that engaging with the Trump True Believers does little to move the needed conversations forward.



apologies for linking to a subscriber-only piece but I believe this initial paragraph is sufficient as a debate starting point.

For several years now, we have read the words of some evangelical Christians ranting about how their religious freedoms are being taken away. It certainly looks like some on the right have decided to follow the same playbook. Reality has little connection with their rants - IMO.

I think many of us have already done this either consciously or sub-consciously. When fake facts are presented, what's the point in debating? How can you debate? Debating conspiracy is wasted words, that's all that is.

 

[Mr Person]

In other words... "Since we (leftists) succeeded with our election fraud <snip>

Mycroft, in post #2, with the bullshit he is required to post.

There was no election fraud other than a handful of Trumpers who voted twice. Though I suppose if you want to use the term loosely, I suppose we could include Trumpist attempts to purge voter rolls and steal the election via frivolous lawsuits, media blitzes...

...and an open revolt against government/coup attempt.

 

[Chomsky]

In other words...
conspiracy guys.
"Since we (leftists) succeeded with our election fraud, it's time to just stop talking about the issue altogether. And forget about even starting to talk about how we are going to destroy Trump supporters with lies and nonsense. We won, you lost, get over it. (And, if you keep talking about it, we'll shut you down like we did to Parler.)"

No one's going to debate conspiracy with you guys, Mycroft. Unless there's something factual presented, you guys are going to have to hang-out in your own echo chamber like the 911 crowd. You guys brought this on, upon yourself. You can't expect us to continue to play along.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

In other words...

"Since we (leftists) succeeded with our election fraud, it's time to just stop talking about the issue altogether. And forget about even starting to talk about how we are going to destroy Trump supporters with lies and nonsense. We won, you lost, get over it. (And, if you keep talking about it, we'll shut you down like we did to Parler.)"

You know for a fact there was no fraud by liberal voters. So does everyone else. There is no reason to believe anything the rattlesnake says about it.

 

[X Factor]

The issue of tech censorship isn’t just a Republican or right wing concern or problem, or, at least, it shouldn’t be. Not so long ago, even just the idea of silencing the opposition was something most people didn’t support, now it’s become, almost, mainstream and nearly exclusively in the Dem party though not every Dem supports it. To be fair, I do see some on the left sounding the alarm and opposing censorship and I have respect for them. It’s one thing to advocate for the free speech of people you agree with but it’s advocating for opposing voices to be heard that shows a true commitment to free speech.

 

[Excast]

I'm torn on this.

It's important to try to make a distinction between the grifters and those who have been brainwashed. The former know better, but have chosen to spread poison into society for years through talk radio, Fox News, stunts in Congress, etc etc for personal and professional gain. They can go take a long walk off a short pier with all their concern about unity. But I think we all have people in our life who have fallen victim to the lies. Yes, they do bear responsibility for it, but some of these people can still be reached. And it's kind of important we do if we want to maintain a functioning society. It's going to be impossible to ever tackle the real challenges we need to if tens of millions of people are increasingly being radicalized and there isn't any real outreach to try to bring them back to reality.

 

[Callen]

I think many of us have already done this either consciously or subconsciously. When fake facts are presented, what's the point in debating? How can you debate? Debating conspiracy is wasted words, that's all tat it.

I stopped trying to debate with Trump loyalists some time ago. It is pointless, their heads are where they are and the indoctrination is unpenetrable. However, I still call them out when they blatantly lie or repeat blatant untruths. Those things cannot be ignored or let stand. I do ask rhetorical questions but I don't try and debate.......it's beyond pointless.

 

[CaughtInThe]

I certainly don't talk about politics to the radical people in my extended family nor our clients who I know are radical (or sympathizers).

 

[Chomsky]

dialoquing

Mycroft, in post #2, with the bullshit he is required to post.
these
There was no election fraud other than a handful of Trumpers who voted twice. Though I suppose if you want to use the term loosely, I suppose we could include Trumpist attempts to purge voter rolls and steal the election via frivolous lawsuits, media blitzes...

...and an open revolt against government/coup attempt.

It's really to the point this stuff gets banished to the conspiracy crowd, with the 911 & Birther proponents. Seriously, how much longer do we accommodate these charades? We've given them months to come to reality. It's time to move-on. I gave-up on dialoguing with them weeks ago, save for a small number of individuals I otherwise like. But I must admit, those conversations are not very substantive.

 

[Mongidig]

I say exile all of these MAGA/White Supremacists. If they are still clinging to Trump they are White Supremacist and should be ignored. Just think of the pain you would inflict by not responding to their posts. It's all they have to live for. Watch them fizzle out like Trump.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

In other words...

"Since we (leftists) succeeded with our election fraud, it's time to just stop talking about the issue altogether. And forget about even starting to talk about how we are going to destroy Trump supporters with lies and nonsense. We won, you lost, get over it. (And, if you keep talking about it, we'll shut you down like we did to Parler.)"

"in other words" Oh goody I love this argument.

In other words, you are making this whole post up.

 

[Callen]

Not so long ago, even just the idea of silencing the opposition was something most people didn’t support, now it’s become, almost, mainstream and nearly exclusively in the Dem party though not every Dem supports it.

I honestly don't see this happening. I do see the limiting of speech that is hateful, inciteful or incendiary but I don't equate that type of language with conservatives. These people aren't conservatives. Supporting Trump's inexcusable behavior is not conservative. Acting on his incendiary words is not conservative. Supporting many of his policies is conservative but I have seen no indication that any conservative voices promoting conservative policies have been silenced. what happened last Wednesday was NOT the actions of true conservatives and conservatives do themselves a huge disservice not denouncing them.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

I will give Mycroft one more chance here to avoid being added to my ignore list by proving me wrong about everything despite knowing his own claims have been disproven already.

 

[bongsaway]

In other words...

"Since we (leftists) succeeded with our election fraud, it's time to just stop talking about the issue altogether. And forget about even starting to talk about how we are going to destroy Trump supporters with lies and nonsense. We won, you lost, get over it. (And, if you keep talking about it, we'll shut you down like we did to Parler.)"

Cry us a river.

 

[Mongidig]

I certainly don't talk about politics to the radical people in my extended family nor our clients who I know are radical (or sympathizers).

I work with a couple Qanoners who tried to constantly show me conspiracy videos. I told them to shut the **** up and stay away from me with that weirdo shit. We are currently getting along just fine.

 

[Mongidig]

The issue of tech censorship isn’t just a Republican or right wing concern or problem, or, at least, it shouldn’t be. Not so long ago, even just the idea of silencing the opposition was something most people didn’t support, now it’s become, almost, mainstream and nearly exclusively in the Dem party though not every Dem supports it. To be fair, I do see some on the left sounding the alarm and opposing censorship and I have respect for them. It’s one thing to advocate for the free speech of people you agree with but it’s advocating for opposing voices to be heard that shows a true commitment to free speech.

How about when attacks are imminent? How about when somebody has been warned over and over not to spout lies but they continue?

 

[Chomsky]

I certainly don't talk about politics to the radical people in my extended family nor our clients who I know are radical (or sympathizers).

Yeah, it's a shame. I've got a neighbor that became radicalized (in terms of disavowing factual reality). I finally decided to avoid politics with him, and just say 'hi & bye', wishing him platitudes when appropriate.

I even told him,

'We're neighbors & Americans first, party members second - right?'

Of course he agreed, but his heart didn't seem to be in it.

His huge Trump signs & regalia are still there, and I suspect he will never take them down. But he's my neighbor, and an otherwise decent-enough guy, so if he ever gets in a jam - I'll be there for him. I take a stake & responsibility to my neighborhood & my neighbors, and see no reason to change that.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

I say exile all of these MAGA/White Supremacists. If they are still cleaning to Trump they are White Supremacist and should be ignored. Just think of the pain you would inflict by not responding to their posts. It's all they have to live for. Watch them fizzle out like Trump.

I have seen one example on DP already. In October, small voice declared he will continue to post here after the election. He is a conservative rattlesnake worshiper who expected his fake god to win. It has been a couple months since the last time I have seen him on the forum.

 

[bongsaway]

The issue of tech censorship isn’t just a Republican or right wing concern or problem, or, at least, it shouldn’t be. Not so long ago, even just the idea of silencing the opposition was something most people didn’t support, now it’s become, almost, mainstream and nearly exclusively in the Dem party though not every Dem supports it. To be fair, I do see some on the left sounding the alarm and opposing censorship and I have respect for them. It’s one thing to advocate for the free speech of people you agree with but it’s advocating for opposing voices to be heard that shows a true commitment to free speech.

Nobody is silencing anyone, we just aren't allowing y'all to spread your bullshit all over the place. There's a big difference between debating policies and listening to lies from the right. Trump with all of his lies has managed to convince his base not to believe anything that doesn't come from him. Election fraud was and still is being screamed by the right with absolutely no proof and we're supposed to humor y'all with endless court sessions into something that doesn't exist? The whole country watched as the trump supporters dished out their idea of law and order on wednesday. America didn't like what we saw. Stop lying, stop misleading the gop base and get rid of the nuts in your party like cruz and gaetz.

 

[Chomsky]

I work with a couple Qanoners who tried to constantly show me conspiracy videos. I told them to shut the **** up and stay away from me with that weirdo shit. We are currently getting along just fine.

I like that outcome!

 

[Ikari]

Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo is arguing that engaging with the Trump True Believers does little to move the needed conversations forward.



apologies for linking to a subscriber-only piece but I believe this initial paragraph is sufficient as a debate starting point.

For several years now, we have read the words of some evangelical Christians ranting about how their religious freedoms are being taken away. It certainly looks like some on the right have decided to follow the same playbook. Reality has little connection with their rants - IMO.

The hardcore Cultists drank so much Kool-Aid they're willing to defend an act of seditious domestic terrorism the likes happened last Wednesday. So yeah, there's nothing to do there. Kool-Aid drinkers cannot be reasoned with.