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Donald Trump is a Socialist (1 Viewer)

I would say large centralized governments with a lot of power over the people are a pox on humanity these are always the governments that exterminate their people. It's the same thing that makes Soviet style socialism and Italian fascism bad. I don't think it's a difference between right or left I think it's a difference between consolidated power and fractured power.

Essentially right-wing centralized government is functionally no different than left-wing centralized government it's all a murder machine. The only antidote is libertarianism.
More people die in tightly-controlled tyrannical states compared to stateless societies... but also many more people can live in them. Despite two world wars and several genocides the violent death rate in 20th century Germany or Europe was considerably lower than evidence suggests for most non-state societies due to more ordered day-to-day lives for most people; the violent death numbers are obviously much higher due to the fact that ordered states are what permit such large populations to develop.

Since even evil government is better than no government - there have been few if any governments which have caused a long-term death rate higher than is found in most societies without government - it's obvious that government itself is a solution rather than a problem. Of course it's best to strive for good, strong democratic government upholding human rights.

You can't have social control of the means of production without a state. If you do that that's anarchy and it is the end of society.
True, but it's also obviously not social control if the state doesn't represent the people - 'state socialism' is always an oxymoron in non-democratic societies - and many if not most socialists these days advocate against central planning/complete state control, instead favouring models like workplace democracy and worker co-ops in a more sustainably regulated market economy.
 
Since even evil government is better than no government - there have been few if any governments which have caused a long-term death rate higher than is found in most societies without government - it's obvious that government itself is a solution rather than a problem.

What exactly is "long term"?

The khmer rouge killed about 4 million in just two years.

Of course it's best to strive for good, strong democratic government upholding human rights.

Governments are the biggest violators of human rights that has ever existed.

True, but it's also obviously not social control if the state doesn't represent the people - 'state socialism' is always an oxymoron in non-democratic societies

Socialism is public control over the means of production and distribution. It's an economic system, whether it is being used by a democratic state or a dictator doesn't matter one bit.

- and many if not most socialists these days advocate against central planning/complete state control,

Which markets for goods or services should be left unregulated, in your opinion?

instead favouring models like workplace democracy and worker co-ops in a (more sustainably) regulated market economy.

No, they support socialist institutions within a market economy, e.g. public schools, public healthcare, etc. Nobody gives a shit about co-ops, which is why they are so rare.
 
Ah, it's all clear now. Nationalism is socialism, fascism is socialism, monarchy is socialism ("one big farm")... basically whatever the author doesn't like is socialism, despite his claim to the contrary.

Apparently it's got nothing to do with social control of the means of production, just state control :rolleyes:


:) Tell us you didn't read the OP without telling us you didn't read the OP
 
More people die in tightly-controlled tyrannical states compared to stateless societies...
Stateless society's don't exist. Is argue they can't exist.
but also many more people can live in them.
Not if they don't exist.
Despite two world wars and several genocides the violent death rate in 20th century Germany or Europe was considerably lower than evidence suggests for most non-state societies due to more ordered day-to-day lives for most people; the violent death numbers are obviously much higher due to the fact that ordered states are what permit such large populations to develop.
Yeah all those stateless society's that totally exist and that isn't an oxymoron at all.
Since even evil government is better than no government - there have been few if any governments which have caused a long-term death rate higher than is found in most societies without government - it's obvious that government itself is a solution rather than a problem. Of course it's best to strive for good, strong democratic government upholding human rights.
No such thing as societies without government that's anarchy.
True, but it's also obviously not social control if the state doesn't represent the people - 'state socialism' is always an oxymoron in non-democratic societies - and many if not most socialists these days advocate against central planning/complete state control, instead favouring models like workplace democracy and worker co-ops in a more sustainably regulated market economy.
Work place democracy is government.

Non government absence of society is where your neighbor can cut your throat and take your house. Any consequences brought to your neighbor will be a governing principle.
 
A point I've been repeatedly making: this kind of top-down government-driven re-shaping and control of the economy for political ends is an inherently leftist approach.

Williamson is just better than I am at saying it.

Trump Is a Socialist


Can’t agree with you on this. The key point of true socialism is government control of the means of production.

Where in Trump’s oligarchical authoritarianism is there control of the means of production?

I’k sure Trump would absolutely love, had his way, to get a licensing fee from absolutely everyone doing business. Him personally, not the government, but he;’d still let you own your business.
 
:) Tell us you didn't read the OP without telling us you didn't read the OP
I read every word. Did you? The author's "reasoning" - inasmuch as it can be described as such, distinct from a simple gut feeling about how Trump views America - would apply even more to medieval monarchies or fascist Italy than to current developments in America. The author, seemingly some kind of libertarian or 'classical liberal,' has opted for a private definition of socialism to mean everything they hate - centrally-planned economies dominated by state action - despite that having little or no correspondence to the actual definition which is social control, not oligarchic or dictatorial control, of the means of production.

In your own comments of course you've committed your own error in imagining that "top-down government-driven re-shaping and control of the economy for political ends is an inherently leftist approach" despite the fact that historically and by and large down to the present right-wing politics has generally with few exceptions been associated with more hierarchical ideals (the original French monarchists, patriarchal views of traditionalist conservatives, the in- and out-groups of nationalism and fascism, capitalism's winners and losers etc.) while left-wing politics has generally albeit with somewhat more exceptions been associated with more egalitarian ideals (the original French republicans, socialists, feminists, civil rights movements, environmentalism and so on).
 
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The key point of true socialism is government control of the means of production.
No, it's social control of the means of production, which dictatorial or oligarchic control is very much the opposite of. 'State socialism' is essentially an oxymoron unless it's a genuinely democratic state; and conversely a regulated market economy in which companies are either worker co-ops or run through a process of workplace- and stakeholder-democracy definitely constitutes social control of the means of production with scarcely any more than the present level of government control.
 
Yep, "private" ownership with full state control. The Hitler model of socialism.

No different than any other model of hyper-capitalism. Capitalism is dependent on government. It does not exist outside of government. It's just a matter of who controls the government, the private capitalists or the people.
 
No different than any other model of hyper-capitalism.

Except nobody calls the Canadian healthcare system "hyper-capitalism". The doctors in the Canadian system are under total state control, which is why there is a shortage:

In January, more than a thousand people lined up outside the Royal Canadian Legion office in Walkerton, Ont., hoping to secure one of 500 spots at a new family medicine practice. This type of scene has become common in rural areas, as millions of Canadians face limited access to family doctors.

“That’s not how we want our system to work,” said Dr. Joss Reimer, president-elect of the Canadian Medical Association (CMA).

According to the CMA, more than one in five Canadians—approximately 6.5 million people—do not have a family doctor or nurse practitioner they see regularly. This means over 15 per cent of the total Canadian population does not have frequent access to a family physician.

Socialism creates shortages, whether it's food, doctors, or cars. Under the Hitler model, the state makes "private" practice miserable for doctors, because they're private in name only. The state calls all the shots.

Capitalism is dependent on government. It does not exist outside of government.

Except nearly 1/5 of the world's gdp is created off the books, thus demonstrating that capitalism and markets work just fine without the filthy state.

It's just a matter of who controls the government, the private capitalists or the people.

If you want to call people like Castro, Chavez, Lenin, Pol Pot, and Ho Chi Minh “capitalists,” be my guest - but don’t expect anyone to take you seriously.
 
Except nobody calls the Canadian healthcare system "hyper-capitalism". The doctors in the Canadian system are under total state control, which is why there is a shortage:

You mean people getting what they pay for?
https://chronicle.durhamcollege.ca/...-worsening-are-primary-care-teams-the-answer/
Socialism creates shortages, whether it's food, doctors, or cars. Under the Hitler model, the state makes "private" practice miserable for doctors, because they're private in name only. The state calls all the shots.

You didn't address what I said. At all. You just throw spaghetti at the wall and run. Capitalism doesn't exist outside of government. Thus its a matter of who government serves: The People or the Private Capitalists.

Which do you prefer?
 
No, you get basic coverage for health insurance through the government. And this doesn’t mean that there isn’t any private health care available if a person can afford it for things not covered by the government plan. Right wingers don’t live in reality, they have this fantasy about countries that take care of everything for everyone from cradle to grave. Wish I knew of such countries because I would move there. It is their weird fantasy and why do they think it is something bad? But of course it doesn’t exist.
Just to be clear. Our healthcare system doctors, nurses, diagnostics , hospital etc are all members of the private sector with hospitals being non profits that receive government grants much like universities do. The government acts as the insurer not the supplier. If anything our medical insurance is "socialized"
 
MAGAs are socialists as long as the taxpayer $$$$ is going to what THEY like.
 
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Yep, "private" ownership with full state control. The Hitler model of socialism.
I have no idea what you mean by that. All my medical decisions are between my doctors and myself . The government is not involved beyond that of what any insurer would do. They call the shots on what is covered and what is not but my doctor calls the shots on my care. If what I need done is not covered, a very short list, I can cover it through supplemental insurance or pay myself.
 
No, it's social control of the means of production,

Nope. Socialism is state or worker cooperative ownership of the means of production.

It’s not private or investor class ownership, which is capitalism.

It’s not private ownership but state controlled.

Google A.I.:

”In a socialist economic system, the means of production are typically owned collectively, either by the state or by workers' cooperatives. This contrasts with capitalism where private individuals or corporations own the means of production.
 
I have no idea what you mean by that.

It means the hospitals and doctors are controlled by the state, although technically they are in the private sector. That's the Hitler model of socialism.

Why do you think Canada has such a huge shortage of doctors? Why do you think the average wait time from initial visit to treatment over six months?
 
Capitalism doesn't exist outside of government.

Wrong:

Shadow economy, percent of GDP, 2015: The average for 2015 based on 158 countries was 27.78 percent. The highest value was in Zimbabwe: 67 percent and the lowest value was in Switzerland: 6.94 percent. The indicator is available from 1991 to 2015. Below is a chart for all countries where data are available.

Nearly a third of the world's GDP is off the books. That means people producing and trading without the "help" of the filthy rotten state.

My weed supplier is a great example. Just yesterday I bought an ounce of green apple for $100. It's incredible how awesome capitalism is when the state is kept out.

Thus its a matter of who government serves: The People or the Private Capitalists.

Which do you prefer?

Politicians put their own interests first. No government on the planet serves the people it rules over. The people serve the state or end up in prison:

 
Nope. Socialism is state or worker cooperative ownership of the means of production.

Nice post, but do worker co-ops really fit?

An employee-owned business seeking to maximize profits by competing in a market economy has no socialist values as far as I can see.
 
I read every word. Did you? The author's "reasoning" - inasmuch as it can be described as such, distinct from a simple gut feeling about how Trump views America - would apply even more to medieval monarchies or fascist Italy than to current developments in America. The author, seemingly some kind of libertarian or 'classical liberal,' has opted for a private definition of socialism to mean everything they hate - centrally-planned economies dominated by state action - despite that having little or no correspondence to the actual definition which is social control, not oligarchic or dictatorial control, of the means of production.

:) Bro that's like saying that it's not a square, it's a plane figure with four equal straight sides and four right angles. :p

"We aren't saying the economy should be controlled-top-down by elites, we are just saying it should be controlled-top-down by... the same people that run our government...."

In your own comments of course you've committed your own error in imagining that "top-down government-driven re-shaping and control of the economy for political ends is an inherently leftist approach"

Because in the United States, it is. Where you err here:

despite the fact that historically and by and large down to the present right-wing politics has generally with few exceptions been associated with more hierarchical ideals

Is in folding Old World throne-and-altar style Conservatism in with discussion of the American context, which is generally focused on whether or not we should conserve the classic liberal values of our Founding, or cast them aside in favor of a "Progressive" top-down organization of the economy in particular.


(the original French monarchists, patriarchal views of traditionalist conservatives, the in- and out-groups of nationalism and fascism, capitalism's winners and losers etc.) while left-wing politics has generally albeit with somewhat more exceptions been associated with more egalitarian ideals (the original French republicans, socialists, feminists, civil rights movements, environmentalism and so on).

:) Because if there is any movement in history who isn't marked by identifying a class of people for public eradication, it's the French Revolution :)

Leftist movements are generally fine with hierarchy - it wasn't conservatism who created intersectional pyramids - it is simply that they tend to prefer to at least claim to be inverting traditional hierarchies and replacing them with others. The Kulaks Must Be Eliminated As A Class. Having a degree (or having an immediate family member with a degree) would get you killed by the Khmer Rogue.

Humans create hierarchies - always have. Tribalism is a thing - always has been. Ironically - given your objection - it was the Christian assumptions of the Enlightenment and Classic Liberalism (both of which, generally, are not exactly celebrated on the Left, but which are at least notionally honored in American Conservatism) that ever gave us the idea that man might be fundamentally equal.
 
Nice post, but do worker co-ops really fit?

An employee-owned business seeking to maximize profits by competing in a market economy has no socialist values as far as I can see.

I’m not sure “market economy” applies to a socialist economic system. They aren’t free markets.
 
I would say large centralized governments with a lot of power over the people are a pox on humanity these are always the governments that exterminate their people. It's the same thing that makes Soviet style socialism and Italian fascism bad. I don't think it's a difference between right or left I think it's a difference between consolidated power and fractured power.

Essentially right-wing centralized government is functionally no different than left-wing centralized government it's all a murder machine. The only antidote is libertarianism.

You can't have social control of the means of production without a state. If you do that that's anarchy and it is the end of society.
LOL That is exactly what Trump is. He is attempting to grab all the power into the executive and himself. Many Americans will be murdered if he succeeds and you support that.
 
I’m not sure “market economy” applies to a socialist economic system. They aren’t free markets.
When you have the State setting prices of goods you do not have a free market. Trump plans on controlling everything.

Trump executive order demands pharma industry price cuts​

WASHINGTON, May 12 (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump signed a wide-reaching executive order on Monday directing drugmakers to lower the prices of their medicines to align with what other countries pay that analysts and legal experts said would be difficult to implement.
The order gives drugmakers price targets in the next 30 days, and will take further action to lower prices if those companies do not make "significant progress" toward those goals.

https://www.reuters.com/business/he...ays-he-will-cut-drug-prices-by-59-2025-05-12/
 
That's because they have socialized medicine. I think it speaks for itself when you're a disabled veteran and you need a chairlift in your house and the government is desperately trying not to have to pay you for it they just say why don't you do state assistance suicide.

How long will it be to wear that's the treatment for everything? This is how it starts.
Actually it "starts" with a President who think the Executive branch should have all the power and he can control everything. Without 3 equal branches of Govt. we have a dictatorship.
 
Actually it "starts" with a President who think the Executive branch should have all the power and he can control everything. Without 3 equal branches of Govt. we have a dictatorship.
So Biden did it? He was trying to bribe people to vote for him again by saying he'd pay off their student loans Congress said no he decided to do it anyway.
 

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