DOGE and the Doorman fallacy

[Ishm]

Should a policeman be fired for saving a dog from drowning ?

A better question would be what do the people actually want from their public servants? Do the current legal restrictions that Mycroft suggests actually reflect the public understanding and need? Using your example, would the people expect a policeman to save a drowning dog if possible to do so safely, or would people consider that an unlawful and punishable over reach of their duties in the Mycroft example?

 

[Revelation]

Except, the entire "fallacy" is practically not a fallacy all it's own inasmuch as you point out, the gist of the fallacy is the simplicity of its moral - complex functions aren't easily modified, and shouldn't be without understanding the entirety of the function.

I have a program I run in Excel for the NCAA brackets. I take the stats for the teams that year, apply my own arcane probabilistic shenanigans to generate "reasonable" random outputs based on team statistics for the year. And I run the program against the actual results and several manual brackets to see where my wizardry and guesswork turns out. It's fun. Been doing it for years. But this year I made one change to one aspect of my program by of improvement that completely discombobulated the entire program and it took me about 4 hours to fix.

That's the doorman fallacy in programming. It's not rocket science, but basic common sense.

Having said that, I suspect DOGE will encounter their own problems in their attempts to make government run more efficiently. In fact, I've no doubt they will.

yur getting warm but NO cigar.

Doge is NOT about making 'government run more efficiently' as we know it; Doge is about the Elimination of Government as we know it.

will it run more efficiently? will it run more efficiently under the Dark Maga corporate run Technocracy they are planning of the Oligarchy?


i will leave that question in the Dark for now until someone can tell me clearly what Doge is truly about rather than the cover story of 'government run more efficiently'.

Back to my programming analogy - our federal government is so fraught with decades of "spaghetti code" on top of "spaghetti code" that changing even one line of it threatens vast amounts. No doubts at all that'll occur.

yeah, GREAT answer. Doge will Eliminate all the 'spaghetti code' when they eliminate Government as we know it now under the Dark Maga Technocracy of the future.

clean sweep. destroy and 'build back better'. scorched earth.

make sense yet?

Having said THAT, that's no excuse for NOT trying to improve things - which we must, if we're to remain even remotely solvent.

true. we need to genuinely 'improve things'. but what is coming is Light Years beyond a government improvement project.

all Life on the Whole World will change; china is already ahead of us in the race to Technocracy of the Oligarch.

.

 

[Operative13]

Except, the entire "fallacy" is practically not a fallacy all it's own inasmuch as you point out, the gist of the fallacy is the simplicity of its moral - complex functions aren't easily modified, and shouldn't be without understanding the entirety of the function.

I have a program I run in Excel for the NCAA brackets. I take the stats for the teams that year, apply my own arcane probabilistic shenanigans to generate "reasonable" random outputs based on team statistics for the year. And I run the program against the actual results and several manual brackets to see where my wizardry and guesswork turns out. It's fun. Been doing it for years. But this year I made one change to one aspect of my program by of improvement that completely discombobulated the entire program and it took me about 4 hours to fix.

That's the doorman fallacy in programming. It's not rocket science, but basic common sense.

Having said that, I suspect DOGE will encounter their own problems in their attempts to make government run more efficiently. In fact, I've no doubt they will.

Back to my programming analogy - our federal government is so fraught with decades of "spaghetti code" on top of "spaghetti code" that changing even one line of it threatens vast amounts. No doubts at all that'll occur.

Having said THAT, that's no excuse for NOT trying to improve things - which we must, if we're to remain even remotely solvent.

The US is built upon hundreds of years of constant labor and patchwork. Unless we intend to start from scratch, there will always be a risk of destabilizing the structure when you knock a few walls down.


Arguably, I'd say the work DOGE is trying to do requires much more planning and logistics than what Elon Musk is trying to do by himself. Quite frankly, I never much liked the fellow. He comes off as someone with severe ADHD that never seems to stick to one thing for too long. I would not be surprised if he ended up handing off DOGE to someone else by next year. Perhaps that's why Ramaswamy called quits on it early...

 

[Revelation]

The US is built upon hundreds of years of constant labor and patchwork. Unless we intend to start from scratch, there will always be a risk of destabilizing the structure when you knock a few walls down.

Bingo, you just won the Internet: Doge and Dark Maga will destabilize the structure when they knock a few walls down.

Congratulations, wow people, i didn't think we would get this far tonight. good job.

Arguably, I'd say the work DOGE is trying to do requires much more planning and logistics than what Elon Musk is trying to do by himself.

it is already planned out. does Project 2025 ring a bell?


Doge and Musk have 6000 Oligarchs supporting him. the Original 'New School for Social Research' came out in 1919 was the Rockefeller funded think tank for Technocracy.

the issue i see with people is they think this is just some Billionaire running around knocking some icons over and being a pest.

not so.

this will Morph into a World Wide ideology that all Oligarchs and governments will support..........or perish.

Quite frankly, I never much liked the fellow. He comes off as someone with severe ADHD that never seems to stick to one thing for too long.

ok, but he is millions of Light Years ahead of the sheep into steering the world into the Largest Revolution of the future.

(he doesn't care if you like him or not)

I would not be surprised if he ended up handing off DOGE to someone else by next year.

Doge and The Technocracy, Dark Maga are NOT dependent on Musk; he is just public face at the moment. and yes he does direct the movement and Revolution currently going on in usa.

soon Canada will be the 51st state for starts. throw in greenland too, thanks.

Perhaps that's why Ramaswamy called quits on it early...

Ramy is a good question, so i don't know. he wants to be governor of Ohio; could be part of the plan. who knows.


.

 

[Mycroft]

Should a policeman be fired for saving a dog from drowning ?

Nobody is going to fire a policeman for saving a dog from drowning.

 

[Mycroft]

Real waste, fraud, and abuse would be over-hiring people to do one task, and only one of those people are actually doing the work.

That isn't the only thing that is considered waste, fraud and abuse.

 

[Operative13]

@Revelation As much as people like to espouse some sort of dark, underlying conspiracy that some genius, conniving individuals conjured up in the shadows, the reality is that people are idiots, and that you are more likely to have idiots running the show than some grand mastermind with a secret plan.

 

[Revelation]

@Revelation As much as people like to espouse some sort of dark, underlying conspiracy that some genius, conniving individuals conjured up in the shadows,

ROFLOL..........for real. yeah, i am done for tonight, but i got some Laughs from yur remarks.

the reality is that people are idiots, and that you are more likely to have idiots running the show than some grand mastermind with a secret plan.

ok, i can agree to the 'idiots' part...........i prefer 'puppets' to describe those 'allegedly' running the show.

Oper, take it one step further and note that is really is the Oligarchs pulling the strings in dee cee, not some Idiot behind a desk with a Teleprompter needing his wife to guide him off the platform.

Jill and Branden were there for show, and the Oligarchs intended it to be that way, a kind of Carnival to usher in the Orange/Musk and Dark Maga Doge squad to kick down the last walls standing of what once was the usa federal government. ........in a nut shell.


gotta call it a day; it was kinda fun. this is not the end of the Dark Maga Doge show; more to come i assure you....

Elon Musk declares himself "dark MAGA" at Trump rally​

Wearing a black MAGA cap, tech billionaire Elon Musk described himself as a“dark, gothic MAGA”, at a massive Donald Trump rally at New York's Madison Square Garden on Sunday (October 27).

The high-profile spectacle aimed at generating media buzz in a state that he is likely to lose on Nov. 5.

Musk, who is supporting Trump's reelection bid with his X social media platform and enormous wealth, called the election a “real battle” and urged people to vote early for the Republican.

Trump, a New York celebrity for decades, hoped to use the event at the iconic venue known for Knicks basketball games and Billy Joel concerts to deliver his closing argument against Democratic candidate Kamala Harris, even though the state last backed a Republican presidential candidate in 1984.

 

[roguenuke]

Doorman fallacy in a nutshell: Hire a doorman to open the door for people. But in carrying out his door opening duties he also picks other, related tasks. Now to save money, you replace the doorman with an automatic door operator, forgetting about the many other duties the doorman also did.

Well, that's pretty basic thinking for even an average business person.

How do you see it needing to be applied to today? You only mention DOGE - how do you see the doorman fallacy applying to DOGE - specifically?

Because they are falling for or extolling the doorman fallacy by thinking that a basic job description or "5 things you did this week" is going to give a proper and good enough view of what the employee actually does. Basing firing or determining whether a job is needed off these very shallow and limited assessments is what is going to lead to major snowballing issues.

 

[Greenbeard]

Your mistake is this...

US government agencies have specific duties and powers...and that's it. They are not allowed to do "extra services". So, when they are doing those services, they are breaking the law...and DOGE, and the DOJ, should go after them because they are engaged in waste, fraud and abuse.

Exactly, like how the United States Digital Service just exists to make government websites work better.

 

[upsideguy]

The US is built upon hundreds of years of constant labor and patchwork. Unless we intend to start from scratch, there will always be a risk of destabilizing the structure when you knock a few walls down.


Arguably, I'd say the work DOGE is trying to do requires much more planning and logistics than what Elon Musk is trying to do by himself. Quite frankly, I never much liked the fellow. He comes off as someone with severe ADHD that never seems to stick to one thing for too long. I would not be surprised if he ended up handing off DOGE to someone else by next year. Perhaps that's why Ramaswamy called quits on it early...

Agreed. This is NOT the way this stuff is done. Doge is neither doing audits nor are they re-engineering. This is the Washington chain saw massacre. It is crude and reckless. It is a show. People are going to be hurt; not just the employees involved, but the people these departments serve. The hurt will be felt for years to come. My guess is fixing it will cost far more then any savings on the disruption.

What Doge has done is analogous to cutting the maintenance department of an airline. In the short run you get to brag about the money you save..... in the long run, 150 people are dead and the airline is paying out far more in lawsuits then it ever saved, not to mention reputation damage which may never be overcome.

I have done both audits (I started my career with a major international accounting firm and stayed six years) and process re-engineering. In both cases the work is planned, staffed with subject matter experts and involves the people that actually do the work for unit under audit/having their processes re-engineered. Even at conclusion of either project, management is involved in distilling the results and implementing recommendations. Each are major projects that take time and attention of internal management. Neither project involves 20 year olds with chain saws.

Doge is a dangerous farce.... though much of what they are doing is right out of Project 2025. They are keeping score:

Project 2025 Tracker

Track the progress on Project 2025

www.project2025.observer

 

[Revelation]

Agreed. This is NOT the way this stuff is done. Doge is neither doing audits nor are they re-engineering. This is the Washington chain saw massacre. It is crude and reckless.

yes, Very GOOD description of Dark Maga Technocracy in action. a few of you get it, most do not, .......but you will.

how about the Post Office next?....

Postmaster General Louis DeJoy resigns after 5 years in the position

Postmaster General Louis DeJoy has resigned after nearly five years in the position

centurylink.net

The head of the beleaguered U.S. Postal Service, Louis DeJoy, resigned Monday after nearly five years in the position, leaving as President Donald Trump and Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency have floated the idea of privatizing mail service.

It is a show. People are going to be hurt; not just the employees involved, but the people these departments serve. The hurt will be felt for years to come. My guess is fixing it will cost far more then any savings on the disruption.

they don't intend to 'fix it'..........the word is REPLACE it. did i mention Dark MAGA Technocracy yet?

What Doge has done is analogous to cutting the maintenance department of an airline. In the short run you get to brag about the money you save..... in the long run, 150 people are dead and the airline is paying out far more in lawsuits then it ever saved, not to mention reputation damage which may never be overcome.

another good analogy. can i steel your creative writing, this is best of. thanks.

I have done both audits (I started my career with a major international accounting firm and stayed six years) and process re-engineering. In both cases the work is planned, staffed with subject matter experts and involves the people that actually do the work for unit under audit/having their processes re-engineered. Even at conclusion of either project, management is involved in distilling the results and implementing recommendations.

Each are major projects that take time and attention of internal management. Neither project involves 20 year olds with chain saws.

this is a full blown Revolution.........not an 'internal audit' or something nicer. this is not 'nice'; this is violence.

got it people?

Doge is a dangerous farce.... though much of what they are doing is right out of Project 2025.

no, no, no: this is not a farce and yes it is a page from Project 2025; good point. keep going, don't stop....


https://unlimitedhangout.com/2025/03/investigative-series/the-dark-maga-gov-corp-technate-part-1/ just in case you wanna really know; otherwise just keep whining.

They are keeping score:

Project 2025 Tracker

Track the progress on Project 2025

www.project2025.observer

thanks for the 'tracker'; helps us keep accurate score in how the Dark Maga Technocracy is doing.


.

 

[mike2810]

Doorman fallacy in a nutshell: Hire a doorman to open the door for people. But in carrying out his door opening duties he also picks other, related tasks. Now to save money, you replace the doorman with an automatic door operator, forgetting about the many other duties the doorman also did.

Well, that's pretty basic thinking for even an average business person.

How do you see it needing to be applied to today? You only mention DOGE - how do you see the doorman fallacy applying to DOGE - specifically?

Example as it applies to DOGE.
There are many examples of positions DOGE recommended to be let go in the federal work force based on job title.
While exempting "operational firefighters" from layoffs, DOGE does not recognize that a person who job title is not "fire" may also work and support the fire program.cos
DOGE may end up having less people available for fire than the US currently has.

ex:
- procurement / contracting officers who make up the logistical/finance section on overhead teams and local fire support.
- trail maintenance workers who also are red carded for fire positions who supplement initial attack/extended attack and large fire support.
- trained employees in other jobs assisting in dispatch during high fire occurrence (Overhead teams, support initial/extended attach

The federal wildland fire program relies on other federal employees to assist. Some have said we should create a National Fire Organization/Agency.
imo, that would increase the cost when you consider the number of Administrative (hiring, procurement, payroll, logistical support, etc.) that would be needed that currently is covered by a person doing multiple tasks and works fire when called upon.

 

[Bighorn66]

Because they are cutting before understanding

You don’t need to understand. What DOGE should be doing is reviewing studies that indicate how much waste there is in each department. And then employee Congress to cut their budget accordingly plus 10%. Let those with the knowledge apply their yankee ingenuity to figure it out.

However, as simple as that is it’ll never survive the political gauntlet.