Does the military belong in schools?

[WorldWatcher]

It is unethical to teach kids that the military and war is cool! These militarized youth have better things to do!

I agree, the new Call of Duty and Battlefield video games just came out.



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[WorldWatcher]

I'm glad San Francisco voted to eliminate JROTC! What is your opinion of the JROTC program? Does it have a place in public education? Should the United Nations ban programs like this? I believe militarization of youth is unethical. It is unethical to teach kids that the military and war is cool! These militarized youth have better things to do! Rather than marching and throwing rifles these children could be studying for college or taking part in community activism. I say show JROTC to the door! Teaching young children how to fight wars is sick!

What is your opinion of the JROTC program?

JROTC is fine program and provides many benefits to the individual and the school:

• Teaches good citizenship,
• Teaches patriotism,
• Teaches independence,
• Teaches leadership,
• Teaches an understanding of authority,
• Teaches the development of good habits including respectful communication and appearance,
• Promotes physical fitness,
• Teaches teamwork.

Does it have a place in public education?

Based on the needs and wants of the local school system, absolutely.

Some may not be aware though that JROTC is an after-school program and not a part of the daily curriculum.

Should the United Nations ban programs like this?

No.

I believe militarization of youth is unethical. It is unethical to teach kids that the military and war is cool! These militarized youth have better things to do!

Poppycock.

XBox and PS4 games like the Battlefield series, Call of Duty series, and Medal of Honor series do much more to teach our children that "war is cool" then anything JROTC has done. JROTC isn't about war, it about honor - courage - commitment.

Rather than marching and throwing rifles these children could be studying for college or taking part in community activism. I say show JROTC to the door! Teaching young children how to fight wars is sick!

JROTC doesn't show children how to fight wars, the active duty force takes care of that. JROTC is about teaching some basic military skills, like proper wearing of the uniform, communication, command structure, with some history thrown in. And in each of our schools JROTC has community service as a major portion of what they do.

Oh and by the way, the students that participate in JROTC have something very strong for their college applications and something that is looked upon very favorably by most admissions office because it shows a degree of commitment to achieving ones goals in addition to skills and community service performed.

If you don't want you kids to participate in JROTC, not a problem. That doesn't mean you should be able to deny such a program to others that want it.



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[APACHERAT]

Yep I was on break in service when Katrina hit, but when Tornadoes rocked Alabama a few years ago, my unit was deployed to patrol the streets to keep looters out of peoples houses...

But the liberals/progressives response was, "Let them touch those things for once."

 

[Oozlefinch]

I'm glad San Francisco voted to eliminate JROTC! What is your opinion of the JROTC program? Does it have a place in public education? Should the United Nations ban programs like this? I believe militarization of youth is unethical. It is unethical to teach kids that the military and war is cool! These militarized youth have better things to do! Rather than marching and throwing rifles these children could be studying for college or taking part in community activism. I say show JROTC to the door! Teaching young children how to fight wars is sick!

OK, first the truth.

San Francisco dod not "vote to eliminate JROTC".

However, back in 2006 the Board of Education did target the program for closure. And the outrage was incredible. So loud in fact that in 2008 it was placed on the ballot as Proposition V, to see if the voters wanted it eliminated. Now this was a non-binding declaration, a yes vote would mean that the voter wanted JROTC to remain, a no said they wanted it closed.

This proposition passed, with over 55% of voters saying they wanted the program to remain.

So you are wrong not once, but twice.

Well, the Board of Education backed down, but then decided that all JROTC instructors must have full teaching credentials.

They are the only school district in the entire nation that has that requirement for JROTC instructors.

But they are still getting volunteers who want to teach the classes. In order to be a JROTC instructor, the individual must have retired from Active Duty, and have all required classes prior to applying. For most this is under $1,000 and takes a few months. In SF, it is around $10,000 and takes a year.

As far as my opinion, I think it is a great program. Over 30 years later, the only people I still keep in contact with from High School are those I was in JROTC with. Most who are in the program never join the military, but it does teach leadership and management skills that benefit anybody later in life, as well as discipline. In reality, it is no more then the Boy or Girl scouts, with a military unit draped over it (in fact many of the units are also members of the BSA Police Explorer program).

So it is obvious that you really know nothing about San Francisco, the attempt to ban JROTC, or about JROTC itself.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Some may not be aware though that JROTC is an after-school program and not a part of the daily curriculum.

Actually, that depends on the school. For some schools it is a part of the daily curriculum, generally in place of Physical Education. In others it is an after-school class. This really depends on the school and the size of the Corps of Cadets in the school.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The San Fransisco liberals/progressives got the whole nine yards and now they want more. They have targeted high school teenagers and the Jr.ROTC program.

The real irony is that in San Francisco, the Board of Education on their own decided to kill the program.

And even in a city as Liberal as San Francisco, the voters spoke up, with over 55% saying that the program should remain.

And that was in November 2008, when even President Obama won only 52% of the popular vote nationwide.

JROTC programs soldier on in San Francisco | Melissa Griffin | San Francisco | San Francisco Examiner

 

[APACHERAT]

The real irony is that in San Francisco, the Board of Education on their own decided to kill the program.

And even in a city as Liberal as San Francisco, the voters spoke up, with over 55% saying that the program should remain.

And that was in November 2008, when even President Obama won only 52% of the popular vote nationwide.

JROTC programs soldier on in San Francisco | Melissa Griffin | San Francisco | San Francisco Examiner

Good informative article.

 

[SBu]

I'm glad San Francisco voted to eliminate JROTC! What is your opinion of the JROTC program? Does it have a place in public education? Should the United Nations ban programs like this? I believe militarization of youth is unethical. It is unethical to teach kids that the military and war is cool! These militarized youth have better things to do! Rather than marching and throwing rifles these children could be studying for college or taking part in community activism. I say show JROTC to the door! Teaching young children how to fight wars is sick!

JROTC is probably the least military thing I can think of. Your objection is to drill team (which is what your "throwing rifles" is, inert ones by the way)? Perhaps we should get rid of parades, marching bands and other things that "throw rifles"? You assume that these kids don't study? You want to force them into "community activism"? Perhaps you meant community service...eh, anyway.

These kids aren't learning how to fight wars, they learn a bit about military structure and history and get involved in extracurricular activities emphasizing team work and discipline. You probably believe teaching kids sports is also deplorable don't you? 'Teaching young children how to compete is sick!' right?

The kids graduate high school like everyone else usually as an adult (18yrs old or thereabouts). JROTC offers them an employment option at a higher pay grade should they choose that route. There are no strings attached to participating in JROTC and are not compelled to sign up for the military. Funny you probably want a large federal government, but want to eliminate federal employment options for young adults to pursue after high school. I suppose you'd just be much happier with a bunch of young adults going to college and racking up tens upon tens of thousands of dollars of debt pursuing a highly sought after liberal arts degree. How's that working out right now?

What I think is sick is how you disparage high school students for wanting to learn about service to their country, getting involved in extracurriculars, and building options for their future.

Edit: Just noticed this crazy prog got banned. Good riddance.

 

[Porchev]

The real irony is that in San Francisco, the Board of Education on their own decided to kill the program.

And even in a city as Liberal as San Francisco, the voters spoke up, with over 55% saying that the program should remain.

And that was in November 2008, when even President Obama won only 52% of the popular vote nationwide.

JROTC programs soldier on in San Francisco | Melissa Griffin | San Francisco | San Francisco Examiner[/QUOTED]

Did you know in San Francisco in 2008 84% of the people there voted for Obama? There is some strange group-think going on there.

 

[Paratrooper]

I don't see what the problem is. The class in an elective, and if they choose to take it, decide they want to join the military, well that is voluntary too.
If you guys don't want a draft back you should be glad there are people still interested in learning about the military and possibly joining it.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Edit: Just noticed this crazy prog got banned. Good riddance.

I just noticed this, wow.

I think that is the shortest tenure on DP I have ever seen.

 

[SBu]

I just noticed this, wow.

I think that is the shortest tenure on DP I have ever seen.

Ha! I went back to look at earlier pages to see if this person even posted after the OP because I didn't notice any responses on this page or the last... but then noticed that he/she got banned after the 2nd page.

Some people.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Good informative article.

Thanks.

As you know, I generally research every post I do.

And I remembered the news both when the Board of Education tried to kill the program, and when the voters said loud and clear that they wanted it to remain in place. So I immediately knew the OP had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. And after I made several posts, I realized that I had forgotten to include the source I had, so I thought I would include it so others could see what he said was complete BS.

This is why it can be dangerous to get me involved if somebody is posting complete crap. I research everything, even if I know what the answer is, because I do not want to give out bogus or outdated information. I tend to back (or be able to back) almost anything I say with facts, not just ideology.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Marc Norton Online

Marc Norton Online

Marc Norton Online

JROTC is sick! Teaching kids how to kill is sick! Military intrusion into our public schools is unethical! The military should be banned completely from our public schools!

Well, the OP is now gone, but I thought I would comment one last time on what he said directly.

One thing I encourage people to do over and over again is to vete their sources. Do not just take something and use it as a source because you like it, but see if there is a hidden agenda behind your source.

And this guy apparently only likes Marc Norton.

And who is Marc Norton? Well, according to his own about page on his blog, this is what it says:

Marc Norton became a political activist and organizer during the war in Vietnam,
at the height of the mass revolutionary movement against imperialist war and racism.

Marc has been a member of San Francisco's hotel and restaurant union, UNITE HERE Local 2, since 1976.
He is also a member of the
Industrial Workers of the World (IWW).

Marc has been a bellman at Hotel Frank,
a small hotel in downtown San Francisco, since 1998.
He is currently on involuntary leave.
Wells Fargo Bank foreclosed on the hotel in 2010,
and the fight has burned red hot there ever since.

Marc Norton Online

OK, rather interesting. This guy is probably in his 60's (judging on his being an activist during Vietnam), and a Union activist, but his job was as a bellman. Not exactly a stellar work record I would guess.

And yes, Wells Fargo foreclosed the hotel in 2010 because the owners were over a year in arrears in payments. So it was taken from the owners and sold at auction.

The hotel was quickly bought up, and the new owners (AEW Investment Group) tried to reopen it as a smaller boutique Hotel. They also tried to renegotiate the labor contract. The old workers refused to cooperate, they insisted on raises in addition to everybody who had been laid off being rehired (even though some of the functions were to be contracted out instead of being done by the owners). What resulted was a 19 month long picket and the new owners closing it after less then 2 years, not only loosing the jobs of everybody who had been picketing them, but all of the staff they had hired. Most of this organized by UNITE HERE Local 2.

And the Hotel Frank remains closed to this day. The strikers stated it was their goal to shut down the hotel, and they did exactly that (cheering when the announcement was made that it was closing). And they call that a victory.

That is the background of where he got most of his information. Now how reliable and impartial does anybody here think that is? Might as well get a Business Degree from Karl Marx University, and then cry because no bank will hire you.

 

[Surtr]

I'm glad San Francisco voted to eliminate JROTC! What is your opinion of the JROTC program?

I was in the Marine Corp JROTC in my high school. I loved it.

Does it have a place in public education?

Absolutely

Should the United Nations ban programs like this?

Words cannot describe the level of ignorance in this sentence.

I believe militarization of youth is unethical. It is unethical to teach kids that the military and war is cool!

That's not what JROTC is for.

Rather than marching and throwing rifles these children could be studying for college or taking part in community activism.

First off, students in JROTC aren't given rifles, since rifles are banned on school property. Second, JROTC is one class that counts as a physical fitness credit. Passing grades were required to stay in the program, and enrollment in this class does not prevent a student a from taking part in their community.

I say show JROTC to the door! Teaching young children how to fight wars is sick!

And I say you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Some may not be aware though that JROTC is an after-school program and not a part of the daily curriculum.

Actually, that depends on the school. For some schools it is a part of the daily curriculum, generally in place of Physical Education. In others it is an after-school class. This really depends on the school and the size of the Corps of Cadets in the school.

Thank you for the correction, I was wrong and you are correct. I checked and our JROTC Instructors are actually full time and required to carry a Virginia Teaching License (Technical Professional).


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[Jango]

Going off the title of the thread (Does the military belong in schools?) alone and not the banned OP's posts: I clicked on this thinking of smooth talking t-shirt giving away recruiters looking to hit their quotas. That's how I was recruited; a lot of guys and gals, above and below my grade have been recruited that way: in-school solicitation. I mean, I understand the importance of it, since the young fight our Wars for us, but there is varying degrees of just unethical elements attached alongside it.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Going off the title of the thread (Does the military belong in schools?) alone and not the banned OP's posts: I clicked on this thinking of smooth talking t-shirt giving away recruiters looking to hit their quotas. That's how I was recruited; a lot of guys and gals, above and below my grade have been recruited that way: in-school solicitation. I mean, I understand the importance of it, since the young fight our Wars for us, but there is varying degrees of just unethical elements attached alongside it.

In reality, most recruiters have little problem making their quotas. I have known a lot of recruiters that are almost impossible to find (especially after June-July) because they have already filled all the slots they have available. My first National Guard recruiter was only in the office for around 4 months. Then once he passed his quota he only went to the office maybe once a week, spending the rest of the time fishing.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

I'm glad San Francisco voted to eliminate JROTC! What is your opinion of the JROTC program? Does it have a place in public education? Should the United Nations ban programs like this? I believe militarization of youth is unethical. It is unethical to teach kids that the military and war is cool! These militarized youth have better things to do! Rather than marching and throwing rifles these children could be studying for college or taking part in community activism. I say show JROTC to the door! Teaching young children how to fight wars is sick!

:lamo

Sure, why not, isn't that what all high school students do who don't participate in ROTC?

Why on earth would any high school student want to invest in their future by learning transferable skills that would prepare them for life beyond the US military?

Why would citizens of the US want to have a strong military? (Hint: Think WW2, i.e. Japan and Germany; Islamist terrorists, et al.)

 

[Oozlefinch]

:lamo

Sure, why not, isn't that what all high school students do who don't participate in ROTC?

Why on earth would any high school student want to invest in their future by learning transferable skills that would prepare them for life beyond the US military?

Why would citizens of the US want to have a strong military? (Hint: Think WW2, i.e. Japan and Germany; Islamist terrorists, et al.)

I can think of at least 3 kids I went to school with who were able to use what they learned in JROTC to advance themselves later in life.

These 3 all were able to get full ROTC scholarships for college, 2 for Navy (Marine option), one for the Army. All did their 6 year commitment and went on to a civilian career. One is now a school teacher, one is a commodities broker, and one is a nurse. None of these three would have been able to attend college otherwise, and their JROTC experience (and recommendations) were a major help in their getting these scholarships.

Maybe 10% of us from my time in JROTC joined the military. Most of the rest after graduation simply entered the civilian work force and never looked back.

 

[Jango]

In reality, most recruiters have little problem making their quotas.

I never said they did.

 

[Snow]

In responce to the question at hand: When I was in high-school, the student body was a mess. It was actually a very sad state of affairs. The only sects that had any sense of pride were those in the JROTC program and those involved in the arts. We had too many involved in drug abuse, bad family lives, gang-affiliation and even prostitution. JROTC actually helped a few kids (a few, several gay kids tried seeking it as an outlet and got pushed out due to the homophobic instructor, he was fired shortly after) and I think that in some schools it is a good idea, but only as an outlet, not as something to be pushed on people.

 

[Objective Voice]

As has already been stated, JROTC isn't a mandatory program for high school students. It's 100% voluntary w/the parent's permission.

The program teaches team work (working as a cohesive group), focuses on self-discipline (character building through strong ethics and morale) and team building (encouraging one another to succeed). Yes, there are some military aspects to the program, such a military bearing, respect for the chain of command and military protocol, but over all I find nothing wrong with the program. In fact, three of my children volunteered to participate in JROTC when they where in high school and my being a Navy veteran had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[Oozlefinch]

In responce to the question at hand: When I was in high-school, the student body was a mess. It was actually a very sad state of affairs. The only sects that had any sense of pride were those in the JROTC program and those involved in the arts. We had too many involved in drug abuse, bad family lives, gang-affiliation and even prostitution. JROTC actually helped a few kids (a few, several gay kids tried seeking it as an outlet and got pushed out due to the homophobic instructor, he was fired shortly after) and I think that in some schools it is a good idea, but only as an outlet, not as something to be pushed on people.

That would actually be an unusual case, as the program is not allowed to discriminate in any way.

In my group in HS, we had several who were "Special Education", as well as at least 5 or 6 who were not just gay, but were rather flamboyantly gay. And this was in the early 1980's when it was much less accepted in society at large (most kids today would not understand the outrage the TV show Soap). And the instructors never had a problem with any of them (one became the Battalion XO after I left).

 

[VanceMack]

Maybe if they did a better job of promoting career oriented programs like JROTC in the public school system, ****heads like Marc Norton would end up with careers other than being an out of work professional bellman for a hotel.

JROTC is a good program that can help kids develop discipline and give them a leg up if they choose to join the military or carry on to ROTC in college. In all situations it provides the participant with the opportunity to enhance their own skill sets. If schools are misusing them by dumping candidates into the program against their will, thats not on the JROTC program...its on the schools. Personally, I have known several people that were on a road to nowhere prior to joining the ROTC and that have since turned their lives around and have real futures. ive also known a few that didnt stick with it and ended right back on the fast track to a dead end road.