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Does character, integrity and honor matter to Americans anymore?

Papa bull

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In a poll I posted about "stategic defaults", there were surprisingly strong arguments that there isn't anything immoral about sticking the mortgage company with your loss if your house depreciates to the point where you owe more than the house is worth. There are people that want to argue there isn't anything at all wrong with sticking other people with your debts, defaulting on your agreements and, generally, doing whatever would profit you most and if you screw someone else in the process, that's just how business goes.

So is character, honor and integrity something that is no longer as valuable as it used to be? Are we less honest than we used to be, as a nation? And why would people demonize business because they imagine business could do something as immoral and unethical as they would do?

What is the state of America and it's values?
 
What is the state of America and it's values?

America is an emotional nightmare. Give people some sense of vengeance on the top 1%/banks/Wall Street, and things will go back to normalcy.
 
I think it's still important generally to our population, but it's becoming more "flexible". What I mean by that is, it isn't a blanket moral view to have integrity or character but can be turned on or off depending on who a person is interacting with. If it's a bank, corporation or business.... no it's not important. If it's a family member or friend, it probably would be still important. People are now disassociating themselves from businesses or corporation and ignore that there are real people who work there, depend on that "evil" entity to pay them, support their family, keep their house and car etc.... it's a dangerous way to view the world IMO.
 
America is an emotional nightmare. Give people some sense of vengeance on the top 1%/banks/Wall Street, and things will go back to normalcy.

Why would people need a sense of vengeance in order to get back to normalcy? I doubt that anyone was forced to sign on the dotted line in the first place. It's not that I even view this as a moral issue, but to think that vengeance brings some sort of normalcy makes no sense. I agree that America is emotionally a train wreck, but it's not because of banks or Wall Street.
 
In a poll I posted about "stategic defaults", there were surprisingly strong arguments that there isn't anything immoral about sticking the mortgage company with your loss if your house depreciates to the point where you owe more than the house is worth. There are people that want to argue there isn't anything at all wrong with sticking other people with your debts, defaulting on your agreements and, generally, doing whatever would profit you most and if you screw someone else in the process, that's just how business goes.

So is character, honor and integrity something that is no longer as valuable as it used to be? Are we less honest than we used to be, as a nation? And why would people demonize business because they imagine business could do something as immoral and unethical as they would do?

What is the state of America and it's values?

Pretty much going down the tubes of the slippery slope of moral relativism.

Face it.

There really is such a thing as 'right' and 'wrong', and it seems the parents of the current crop of children aren't teaching them that; not through their actions and not through their teachings. Likely only to become ever worse in the coming years.
 
Why would people need a sense of vengeance in order to get back to normalcy? I doubt that anyone was forced to sign on the dotted line in the first place. It's not that I even view this as a moral issue, but to think that vengeance brings some sort of normalcy makes no sense. I agree that America is emotionally a train wreck, but it's not because of banks or Wall Street.

It is human nature. I got into this on another thread recently but people scoffed. There are things that happen in the brain, sort of an economic PTSD, that causes baseline glucose levels to drop. Give them something to be excited about, and you will see their brains move back to pre-recession baselines.
 
It's always been this way. The majority will talk the good talk until it comes time for them to personally walk it.
 
I think we are morally bankrupt, but I don't know that this distinguishes the present from most periods in the past. Personal honor means little, but then, it seldom does to most people. Historically, it's only at the very outset of a civilization that people are inspired by ideals. We are in the decline of our civilization, and decline phases are usually characterized by extremes of selfishness and dishonorable behavior.
 
In a poll I posted about "stategic defaults", there were surprisingly strong arguments that there isn't anything immoral about sticking the mortgage company with your loss if your house depreciates to the point where you owe more than the house is worth. There are people that want to argue there isn't anything at all wrong with sticking other people with your debts, defaulting on your agreements and, generally, doing whatever would profit you most and if you screw someone else in the process, that's just how business goes.

So is character, honor and integrity something that is no longer as valuable as it used to be? Are we less honest than we used to be, as a nation? And why would people demonize business because they imagine business could do something as immoral and unethical as they would do?

What is the state of America and it's values?
Conflating the personal....and business.

The "mortgage corp" doesn't take the "hit", the investor does....sort of....if the loan had no insurance....or if the investor cannot write-off the loss in taxes....the "hit' gets mitigated.

The individual former homeowner more than likely will not be able to get a loan for a long time...or will pay very high rates if they can. Of course, the individual lendee was not the cause of the collapse in the value of whatever property he/she was able to secure the loan on in the first place, nor is he/she to blame for the run-up in the prices.

All sorts of investments go bad, businesses fail every day...but somehow those failings are not seen as a moral failures...because we understand that they are, by and large, just business.
 
There are people that want to argue there isn't anything at all wrong with sticking other people with your debts, defaulting on your agreements and, generally, doing whatever would profit you most and if you screw someone else in the process, that's just how business goes.
Okay, and....?

You can't use this site as a proxy for "what Americans believe." You're looking at a self-selecting subgroup of a self-selecting community that does not reflect Americans as a whole.


So is character, honor and integrity something that is no longer as valuable as it used to be?
1) Your poll isn't a valid indicator of current American opinions on the topic.
2) I seriously doubt you have any real evidence about how people felt about such things in the past.

In particular, the idea that Americans were somehow "more moral" in the past is total bull****. People just weren't talking about it, they weren't open about it.

We should also note it's not like foreclosures and bankruptcy were invented in 2005. People have been walking away from their debts for centuries.


Why would people demonize business because they imagine business could do something as immoral and unethical as they would do?
1) Because those businesses are operated by bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling.

The mortgage originators and investment banks were clearly gaming the system, for the explicit purpose of their own material gain, no matter who got hurt. Mortgage originators frequently lied to potential home buyers, fraudulently filled out paperwork, and swindled people into loans no one should have offered. The investment banks pushed to roll back or thwart regulation which could have blunted the impact of the real estate bubble; they structured the deals so they could sell abysmal loans at high rates; they obscured the risks, which were already misjudged to begin with; they repackaged tranches of loans, over and over, in order to further obscure the risks; they bore no risk in the event of the failure of the MBSs they issued; they sold it off, knowing it was crap; they pressured ratings agencies into spraying perfume on the big pile of BS they were selling; to top it off, they often bet against the securities they themselves packaged. When everything went to hell in a handbasket, the banks felonious foreclosed long before they should have, resulting in thousands of people unfairly losing their homes. They also made the taxpayer foot the bill.

And then, while they received huge amounts of rolling credit, they fought tooth and nail against every reform which might prevent this from happening again.

Not everyone who worked in those fields was unethical. We need modern finance. But as an industry: **** THEM AND THE HORSE THEY RODE IN ON. They completely screwed over the American economy and citizens, purely for their own gain. There is no question that they acted immorally, and got away with it.


2) Homebuyers weren't completely innocent. However, unlike the businesses, they largely paid for their mistakes. When you walk away from your mortgage, you lose the house, the down payment, any money you've put into it. Your credit has a big black mark.

Their actions also didn't harm anywhere near as many people as the businesses' decisions. One person failing to pay their mortgage didn't harm nearly as many people as Goldman Sachs re-re-repackaging the worst subprime tranches, selling it off to pension funds that had no business buying them, betting against the securities via CDSs at AIG, and then getting 100% on the dollar courtesy of the American taxpayer when AIG got bailed out.

In contrast, the mortgage originators and banks got a slap on the wrist, the individuals went completely unpunished, and the banks are right back to paying out multi-million dollar bonuses. They deserve all the invective people have heaped upon them.

 
Conflating the personal....and business.

The "mortgage corp" doesn't take the "hit", the investor does....sort of....if the loan had no insurance....or if the investor cannot write-off the loss in taxes....the "hit' gets mitigated.

The individual former homeowner more than likely will not be able to get a loan for a long time...or will pay very high rates if they can. Of course, the individual lendee was not the cause of the collapse in the value of whatever property he/she was able to secure the loan on in the first place, nor is he/she to blame for the run-up in the prices.

All sorts of investments go bad, businesses fail every day...but somehow those failings are not seen as a moral failures...because we understand that they are, by and large, just business.

So it's different because it's the "investor" that takes the hit instead of "the mortgage corp".

Not in my opinion. You're still sticking someone else with YOUR bad debt. It's not an honest or honorable thing to do.
 
Okay, and....?

You can't use this site as a proxy for "what Americans believe." You're looking at a self-selecting subgroup of a self-selecting community that does not reflect Americans as a whole.

Yes I can use this site to discuss "what Americans believe" and you can participate in the discussion or not. It's a topic for discussion and that's a good thing since there aren't a plethora of new threads with scintillating topics so stop crying about what I'm doing and either engage in the discussion or click on to another thread more interesting to you.
 
The mortgage company lent you the money with full knowledge that they would lose money if the house depreciated below what you paid. Its called "risk" which part of every investment, and the company collects interest at a rate that is designed to offset said risk. Said mortgage company would do exactly the same thing by defaulting on money owed to creditors shielded by limited liability if they were in the same situation. It is in fact "just business".

If you want to talk about immoral behavior, its offering someone a mortgage at an awful rate with a high risk of default, lying about said mortgage by claiming its low risk, and then selling that mortgage to someone else under false pretenses before the system collapses and your scam is exposed.
 
The mortgage company lent you the money with full knowledge that they would lose money if the house depreciated below what you paid. Its called "risk" which part of every investment, and the company collects interest at a rate that is designed to offset said risk. Said mortgage company would do exactly the same thing by defaulting on money owed to creditors shielded by limited liability if they were in the same situation. It is in fact "just business".

If you want to talk about immoral behavior, its offering someone a mortgage at an awful rate with a high risk of default, lying about said mortgage by claiming its low risk, and then selling that mortgage to someone else under false pretenses before the system collapses and your scam is exposed.

That would be immoral, too. The fact that some banks did that doesn't make defaulting on a mortgage just because it's upside down any more moral when you do it, though.

There is a reason why you get black marks on your credit rating for doing this. You get black marks because you prove that you are one of the people that will not honor your agreements and have a track record of welshing on loans. Those aren't good things and your bad credit is such a poor reflection of your character that it can keep you from being hired, it could keep you from getting a security clearance and it can even cost you more money on your home and car insurance. Being a deadbeat that defaults on loans is a sign of poor character and low trustworthiness. There is no way that it can be argued that it's not a testament to your morality, ethics, honor and character. It sure is and saying "it's just business" doesn't change that one iota.
 
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Yes I can use this site to discuss "what Americans believe"....
...and you would be wrong for the reasons I outlined.

I see no problem with trying to correct the fundamental errors of your opening post.

I also find it fascinating that you apparently see no ethical failures on the part of the mortgage originators or banks, and you only question the ethics of the entire nation based on the behavior of a subgroup of home buyers. Hmmmmmmm.
 
So it's different because it's the "investor" that takes the hit instead of "the mortgage corp".
You ignored the fact that even for the investor, the "hit" is mitigated....greatly.

I could turn it around and say that investors are lacking morality because they take advantage of the outs they have to mitigate their losses.

Not in my opinion. You're still sticking someone else with YOUR bad debt. It's not an honest or honorable thing to do.
Again, the investor is able to pass his loss on.....yet he is not held to your high moral standards.

You still have not faced up to the fact that this is business...not "personal", investment goes bad all the time.....and again, the former mortgage holder pays a very dear price for something they had zero control over.
 
It's always been this way. The majority will talk the good talk until it comes time for them to personally walk it.

Human nature never changes does it?
 
...and you would be wrong for the reasons I outlined.

And you are wrong because I AM using this site to discuss that. Arguing that I can't is pretty stupid since that's exactly what I'm doing.

I see no problem with trying to correct the fundamental errors of your opening post.

I don't see a problem with you trying, either.

I also find it fascinating that you apparently see no ethical failures on the part of the mortgage originators or banks, and you only question the ethics of the entire nation based on the behavior of a subgroup of home buyers. Hmmmmmmm.

I find it fascinating that you see things that don't exist. The fact that I'm questioning the ethics and morality of "strategic defaults" doesn't say anything at all about my position on the ethics of anything or anyone else. There were ethical failures, but they've been discussed ad nauseum every since 2008 and I don't think we need to go over them again. What hasn't been discussed ad nauseum is that people walking away from their mortgages and sticking the banks with properties that lost value beyond the amount of the mortgage are a huge part of the financial crisis. Their willingness to shrug their shoulders and not pay THEIR debt has affected all the rest of us. So I thought it would be a nice change of pace to discuss that.

My question is whether we actually care about honor, integrity, ethics or morality because if the general sentiment is that "if it's good for me, I don't care if I'm screwing you" is now the way we act, as a nation. And how in the hell can you ever complain about business acting badly if you assert that there's nothing wrong for acting just as badly yourself since "it's just business"? And you're one of the guys I can count on to jump on the "business is evil" bandwagon in every discussion. Maybe you're just projecting.
 
That would be immoral, too. The fact that some banks did that doesn't make defaulting on a mortgage just because it's upside down any more moral when you do it, though.

There is a reason why you get black marks on your credit rating for doing this. You get black marks because you prove that you are one of the people that will not honor your agreements and have a track record of welshing on loans. Those aren't good things and your bad credit is such a poor reflection of your character that it can keep you from being hired, it could keep you from getting a security clearance and it can even cost you more money on your home and car insurance. Being a deadbeat that defaults on loans is a sign of poor character and low trustworthiness. There is no way that it can be argued that it's not a testament to your morality, ethics, honor and character. It sure is and saying "it's just business" doesn't change that one iota.
So you admit that the defaulter is punished severely.

What do you want? Blood? A guaranty of time spent in hell? You moralists desire never ending punishment for something the defaulter was not in control of.
 
You ignored the fact that even for the investor, the "hit" is mitigated....greatly.

I could turn it around and say that investors are lacking morality because they take advantage of the outs they have to mitigate their losses.

Again, the investor is able to pass his loss on.....yet he is not held to your high moral standards.

You still have not faced up to the fact that this is business...not "personal", investment goes bad all the time.....and again, the former mortgage holder pays a very dear price for something they had zero control over.

Bullcrap. When you default on a mortgage, you are sticking someone else with YOUR financial loss. Someone is going to pay for your loss and you're making sure that someone isn't you. There's nothing honest or ethical about doing that.
 
So you admit that the defaulter is punished severely.

What do you want? Blood? A guaranty of time spent in hell? You moralists desire never ending punishment for something the defaulter was not in control of.

Fact is the punishments aren't severe enough. The financial crisis should be a wakeup call. The entire country and much of the globe went into an historic recession because of all the deadbeats defaulting on their loans. Many didn't have the means to make good on their loans. Many did and just decided not to. The latter was inexcusable.
 
It's always been this way. The majority will talk the good talk until it comes time for them to personally walk it.

Kind of like giving away other people's money.
 
Bullcrap. When you default on a mortgage, you are sticking someone else with YOUR financial loss. Someone is going to pay for your loss and you're making sure that someone isn't you. There's nothing honest or ethical about doing that.

Higher interest rates and lower home values.
 
people walking away from their mortgages and sticking the banks with properties that lost value beyond the amount of the mortgage are a huge part of the financial crisis.
Those "banks" that hold those properties have not only been propped up at US taxpayer expense.....but the properties will be sold again at profit. The banks who wrote the loans have made out like bandits.

And you want to discuss the morality of those who had no control on the devaluation.
 
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