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DOE: A Critical Review of Impacts of Greenhouse Gas Emissions on the U.S. Climate

I already have...
Your quote said no such thing.

Oh... and here is the quote from your 32-year-old paper you just cited that George mentioned:
It is anticipated that TOPEX/POSEIDON data has the potential to be used for the monitoring of variations in the mean sea-level with an accuracy of approaching a few mm per year. These measurements may be sufficient to detect global change phenomena and will be useful in the study of the long-term variation of the sea surface.

I'll bet that if we found something similar that is more recent, it would verify the 3-4 mm that NOAA stated.
 
Interesting how at the very end of your post you cite an article from 1993 that states that the new satellites even back then are ushering in a new era of unprecedented accuracy in the measurement of sea level to within a few mm per year, yet you seem to want to ignore that. You pick out a few numbers and draw your own conclusions without understanding what the people who do this for a living are really saying.
The sampling frequencies have not changed, and even the most recent articles say the accuracy is still the same!
 
Your quote said no such thing.

Oh... and here is the quote from your 32-year-old paper you just cited that George mentioned:


I'll bet that if we found something similar that is more recent, it would verify the 3-4 mm that NOAA stated.
Do you realize that seeing a change of a few mm a year is different than saying that the measurement is accurate to that level?
The accuracy is 20 to 30 mm, absolute!
 
On page x of this study the five members of the writing team are listed. They are:

John Christy,Ph.D. Judith Curry,Ph.D. Steven Koonin,Ph.D. Ross McKitrick,Ph.D. and Roy Spencer,Ph.D

John Raymond Christy for the first successful development of a satellite temperature record, and for his rejection of mainstream climate science.

Judith A. Curry
Curry has become known for hosting a blog which is part of the climate change denial blogosphere.

Steven Koonin, Ph.D
.He later became known as a skeptic on climate change, publishing the book Unsettled: What Climate Science Tells Us, What It Doesn't, and Why It Matters, which was widely condemned for promoting climate denial

Ross McKitrick has authored works about environmental economics and ones denying the scientific consensus on climate change,

Roy Spencer, Ph.D. Regarding climate change, Spencer is a "lukewarmer", with the view that anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions have caused some warming, but that influence is small compared to natural variations in global average cloud cover.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Five out five members of the writing team are climate change deniers to at least a moderate extent and some reject it 100%.

This is a heavily biased study.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one here who understands how to research.
So we can ignore anything from those who agree with the consensus, because they are biased the other way?
 
So we can ignore anything from those who agree with the consensus, because they are biased the other way?
We can ignore a study whose authors made up their minds about what the results would be long before conducting it.
 
We can ignore a study whose authors made up their minds about what the results would be long before conducting it.
Swe can do the reverse with those who hold consensus?
 
Do you realize that seeing a change of a few mm a year is different than saying that the measurement is accurate to that level?
Of course I do. But that isn't what I have been saying. According to NOAA, the 3-4mm is the uncertainty(or the error range) of the satellite measurements of global sea level.
The accuracy is 20 to 30 mm, absolute!
Yes, for one measurement. But when you combine numerous measurements and average them, the accuracy is increased. This is a basic fact of science. Do you seriously not know this? Or are you just being intellectually dishonest again?
 
Do you realize that seeing a change of a few mm a year is different than saying that the measurement is accurate to that level?
The accuracy is 20 to 30 mm, absolute!
This discussion started when we introduced the idea of sea level increases to this thread. The satellites are sufficient to determine the annual global change in sea level to be able to produce a graph that looks like the graph below. That was not possible before we had the benefit of satellites. As your citation stated the new satellites are able to achieve unprecedented accuracy in the measurement of sea level.

IMG_0520.webp

This graph shows global mean sea level (in blue) since 1993 as measured by a series of five satellites. The solid red line indicates the trajectory of this increase, which has more than doubled over the past three decades. The dotted red line projects future sea level rise. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech
 
And for everyone's information...

Most studies of black carbon on snow and ice and its effect on melting (including many that Lord of Planar has ever cited) all say the same thing. And that is that the melting of snow and ice due to BC is second only to the melting caused by greenhouse gases.
Second to that values assumed to be caused by CO2 IAW the IPCCC. That is still not pinned down. Works of scientists outside of those commissioned by the agenda have the sensitivity of CO2 much lower than the iP{CCC uses.
 
Quote where they state that predicted tides are being used to determine sea level rise.
The predicted tide height must be used as an offset to generate a satellite result regarding sea level. The average between high and low waves is the result. These satellites never see the same spot of ocean continuously and they are sampling a movement at too low of a rate for any proper accuracy, even if the measurements were accurate.

Do you understand what is involved in resolving the data from these satellite measurements? There is an extremely complex set of changing variables in the atmosphere. They effectively measure the distance form what? Around 800 miles I believe while moving at over 15,000 miles per hour. They don't see the same spot on the earth for over a week. The atmosphere varies it composition so much, the signals between the satellite and earth are changed in relative timing between measurements. The C-band radar they use simply has too much error range for any proper accuracy.

If we assume the radar is using the higher end of the C-ban, 8 ghz, then the wavelengths are 3.75 cm. Over the distance of 1,200 km, that is 32 million wave cycles between the earth and satellite, one wave representing 3.75 cm. A deviation of 0.0000031% in the signal timing or frequency results in a 1 wavelentgh error each direction.

Now ask a satellite to remain that accurate through all the variables it experiences in the hardness of space. That is an impossible task.

FYI. My first professional discipline was microwave telecommunications.
 
George the reason the accuracy of the satellites is limited to 2 to 3 cm is because they are using a single transmitter/receiver.
This means the best accuracy they can achieve is the a single wavelength, because they do not have any phase information.
Actually, proper signal resolves and DSP technology can resolve partial wavelengths. But as I explained in my previous post, attempting such extra accuracy is impossible unless you can keep the satellite electronics operating better than around 10 parts per billion.... Around 0.000001 percent. That 0.0000031% is only good for 7.5 cm round trip of the signal. Probably a waste of money to try resolving partial wavelengths unless you can get the accuracy down to 1 part per billion or better. Even then, we still have to contend with the ever changing atmospheric dynamics we try to measure through.
 
Now the wavelength of the higher frequency band is 3 X 10^8/ 13.575 X 10^9= 0.022 meters, or 2.2 cm.
But they cannot use the Ku band in all weather conditions, and the 5.3 Ghz c-band has a wavelength, of 5.6cm.
Think about giving someone an ungraduated meter stick, and asking them to measure the inside of a large warehouse.
They can tell you the size down to a number of whole meters, but can only guess at the fractional meter at the end.
The tides interduce a whole other level of error.
There are studies that spell out how they correct for the tides, but they just treat it like a known variable.
Satellite altimetry
These satellites use the C band for altimeter readings and the Ku band for clouds.
 
Interesting how at the very end of your post you cite an article from 1993 that states that the new satellites even back then are ushering in a new era of unprecedented accuracy in the measurement of sea level to within a few mm per year, yet you seem to want to ignore that. You pick out a few numbers and draw your own conclusions without understanding what the people who do this for a living are really saying.
Their data resolves to that. The error band of the data exceeds those finer numbers.
 
This discussion started when we introduced the idea of sea level increases to this thread. The satellites are sufficient to determine the annual global change in sea level to be able to produce a graph that looks like the graph below. That was not possible before we had the benefit of satellites. As your citation stated the new satellites are able to achieve unprecedented accuracy in the measurement of sea level.

View attachment 67585246

This graph shows global mean sea level (in blue) since 1993 as measured by a series of five satellites. The solid red line indicates the trajectory of this increase, which has more than doubled over the past three decades. The dotted red line projects future sea level rise. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech
No, we have known the sea levels were increasing for more than a century, NYC’s battery park record goes back more than 150 years.
The PSMSL was established to keep track of the sea level rise.
 
Of course I do. But that isn't what I have been saying. According to NOAA, the 3-4mm is the uncertainty(or the error range) of the satellite measurements of global sea level.

Yes, for one measurement. But when you combine numerous measurements and average them, the accuracy is increased. This is a basic fact of science. Do you seriously not know this? Or are you just being intellectually dishonest again?
Let's review!
In post number 140 I pointed out that the published accuracy of the satellite altimeters was 3 to 4 cm,
to which you responded in post 141 that,
global mean sea level every 10 days with an uncertainty of 3–4 mm.
So it is you who deflected from the statement.
Also, For a fixed distance the accuracy can be improved with super sampling,
but for a random distance, the same error applies to every measurement, and the optical distance between the satellite
and the ocean's surface spread over a square km is indeed random, with many variables playing a role.
The studies discuss the variables, it is not like they arrived at an accuracy of 3 to 4 cm casually.
Later devices found ways to minimize the variables, but the Oceans surface still moves up and down.
the-accuracy-and-applications-of-satellite-altimetry
1755604159636.webp
 
Actually, proper signal resolves and DSP technology can resolve partial wavelengths. But as I explained in my previous post, attempting such extra accuracy is impossible unless you can keep the satellite electronics operating better than around 10 parts per billion.... Around 0.000001 percent. That 0.0000031% is only good for 7.5 cm round trip of the signal. Probably a waste of money to try resolving partial wavelengths unless you can get the accuracy down to 1 part per billion or better. Even then, we still have to contend with the ever changing atmospheric dynamics we try to measure through.
A second receiver would do much better, but I suspect the accuracy is good enough.
 
The report was a shame and just a part of decades of climate denial propaganda. That group is now dissolved because the goal was to undermine science not advance it.

 
The report was a shame and just a part of decades of climate denial propaganda. That group is now dissolved because the goal was to undermine science not advance it.

To bad CNN han no credibility. The report does though. They did their assigned job and that's that. Why should theyvontibur getting paid and not do anything?

Damn... Spin baby spin.
 
To bad CNN han no credibility. The report does though. They did their assigned job and that's that. Why should theyvontibur getting paid and not do anything?

Damn... Spin baby spin.

If the report had any credibility it would of course had led to further studies. While the authors wouldn't even both to answer the public comments from the scientific community. From my source:

"The report generated concerted pushback from the scientific community. More than 100 climate scientists – many of whom coordinated their efforts – submitted over 400 pages in public comments to the Energy Department last week."
 
If the report had any credibility it would of course had led to further studies. While the authors wouldn't even both to answer the public comments from the scientific community. From my source:

"The report generated concerted pushback from the scientific community. More than 100 climate scientists – many of whom coordinated their efforts – submitted over 400 pages in public comments to the Energy Department last week."
How do you know the report didn’t generate further studies?
 
How do you know the report didn’t generate further studies?

A first step would have been to expand the working group both to be able to answer the public questions to the report as well as let more scientists review the findings. Instead they simply gave up and shut down the group.

While for example the IPCC have been able to withstand decades of scrutiny from scientists, politcians, corporations, NGO and many others.

 
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