Doctors Without Borders Staff Shot While Fleeing Kunduz Hospital, Report Finds

[Alyssa T.]

Nah, deflection. Sad to see you find mass rape and genocide laughable.

I know. Seeing things like that seriously makes me want to cry and scream, all at the same time.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

Nah, deflection. Sad to see you find mass rape and genocide laughable.

False, and once again, strawman.

I explicitly stated that the idea of a war crime is laughable.

When talking about genocide and mass rape, I said that those were incredibly stupid (to do) and horrificly unethical.

 

[Sherman123]

Your babbling is nationalistic rhetoric.

Then the problem would seem to be that you aren't familiar with what nationalism actually is. Supporting a country, or an outcome, contingent upon the desire to see certain policy outcomes effected, isn't nationalism. At least not on its own.

 

[Alyssa T.]

I'm not particularly interested if we lied or spun the issue to try and make it 'go away' that is precisely my point. That is exactly what we should be doing in order to diminish the importance and profile of this. What we're doing right now is the correct course of action. We've agreed to pay compensation, we've steadfastly refused a public investigation, and we've effectively blocked international avenues of inquiry. The result will be that within a few weeks or months this issue will recede from public memory and we will have denied the Taliban (not to mention China and Russia) the propaganda coup of seeing the United States and ISAF 'in the dock' of an international inquiry.

Our public memory. The memories of atrocities and crimes committed against these peoples is much longer than our 15 second soundbite culture over here. These guys are still pissed about the Crusades, as if they just happened last week! They will not forget the slaughter of innocents at a hospital just because we move it off the front page.

In fact, doing so only hurts our own. We need to do better if we want to maintain any positive image in the world.

 

[DA60]

The question is too narrow. The greater objective is to defeat the Taliban and their Islamist affiliates and to sustain the nascent Afghan civil government. Taken to an even higher plain the goal is to sustain and expand a democratic hegemony which can only be won by the United States. An investigation would accomplish nothing other than to satisfy a sense of righteous indignation while poisoning the reputation of the United States, handing a propaganda coup to our enemies, and thus impairing our ability to pursue those objectives.

This was clearly a terrible mistake and we should pay compensation without giving our opponents a grand, high profile stage over this event that they'd so desperately love.

You are too far gone on this for me to take you seriously.

Good day.

 

[le bouffon]

Then the problem would seem to be that you aren't familiar with what nationalism actually is. Supporting a country, or an outcome, contingent upon the desire to see certain policy outcomes effected, isn't nationalism. At least not on its own.

Mindlessly, yes. You're stating that very notion.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

None of the arguments you made is valid. And I am not really interested in wasting more time in this "I am right, you are wrong" silliness.

What!? Its literally the geneva convention and Law of Armed Conflict and the Army field manual of the law of land warfare...

 

[Sherman123]

It would only be buried to Western eyes. The eyes of the people on that side of the world are already being filled with our crimes involving this hospital. If we leave it at that, as if it doesn't matter or didn't even happen, that makes us look even worse.

Not really. You don't think there isn't a vibrant media sphere in Afghanistan-Pakistan? An international inquiry would ensure a whirlwind of discussion and coverage, build up the issue to a fever pitch, enlarge its importance, and inevitably benefit the Taliban and its allies. Whereas this approach allows it to, eventually, take its place as another tragic incident among dozens of such incidents that have taken place over the course of the where.

It may make you angry but it doesn't make us look worse.

 

[le bouffon]

False, and once again, strawman.

I explicitly stated that the idea of a war crime is laughable.

When talking about genocide and mass rape, I said that those were incredibly stupid (to do) and horrificly unethical.

You find the idea of a war crime to be laughable. Mass rape and genocide are war crimes. Hence, you find mass rape and genocide laughable. That's sad.

 

[Sherman123]

You are too far gone on this for me to take you seriously.

Good day.

*shrug* I'm just more realistic than you are.

 

[Alyssa T.]

Not really. You don't think there isn't a vibrant media sphere in Afghanistan-Pakistan? An international inquiry would ensure a whirlwind of discussion and coverage, build up the issue to a fever pitch, enlarge its importance, and inevitably benefit the Taliban and its allies. Whereas this approach allows it to, eventually, take its place as another tragic incident among dozens of such incidents that have taken place over the course of the where.

It may make you angry but it doesn't make us look worse.

One thing our enemies are very good at is taking our terrible actions and twisting them into perfect propaganda pieces. Showing that we are taking responsibility will not make everything better, but it will show some kind of honor for our side. Showing that we have honor is important, because we prove otherwise (in their eyes) every day.

 

[Sherman123]

Our public memory. The memories of atrocities and crimes committed against these peoples is much longer than our 15 second soundbite culture over here. These guys are still pissed about the Crusades, as if they just happened last week! They will not forget the slaughter of innocents at a hospital just because we move it off the front page.

In fact, doing so only hurts our own. We need to do better if we want to maintain any positive image in the world.

Of course it will. How many still protest about the mistaken wedding air strikes? The Quran incident? The Kabul prison riots? The convoy bombardment? I could go on, and on. This is a basic dictum of media representation, the less coverage it gets the less people remember it. There are new grievances to latch onto, new concerns. There is a subset of people, especially within Kunduz, who will be eternally angered by this, but the wider public across the country, and the region, will move on.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

You find the idea of a war crime to be laughable. Mass rape and genocide are war crimes. Hence, you find mass rape and genocide laughable. That's sad.

Mass rape and genocide are not war crimes. Theyre horrificly unethical and moronic things to do.

War crimes are the laughable notions.

 

[Alyssa T.]

Of course it will. How many still protest about the mistaken wedding air strikes? The Quran incident? The Kabul prison riots? The convoy bombardment? I could go on, and on. This is a basic dictum of media representation, the less coverage it gets the less people remember it. There are new grievances to latch onto, new concerns. There is a subset of people, especially within Kunduz, who will be eternally angered by this, but the wider public across the country, and the region, will move on.

When we keep doing these horrible and stupid things, it adds to the propaganda to recruit more enemies to kill innocent people and our NATO troops. We need to start holding our own accountable to hopefully put a stop to these terrible criminal acts. Stop feeding their propaganda videos. Take responsibility. Show that we are a people of ethics and honor. We have shown far too often that we do not hold those things to be important in the eyes of the people on the ground.

 

[Sherman123]

One thing our enemies are very good at is taking our terrible actions and twisting them into perfect propaganda pieces. Showing that we are taking responsibility will not make everything better, but it will show some kind of honor for our side. Showing that we have honor is important, because we prove otherwise (in their eyes) every day.

This is wishful thinking, the idea that if we only 'took responsibility' it would demonstrate our 'honor' that this hypothesized measure of placation would outweigh the damage done from making a media circus over this is naive at best.

 

[Riveroaks]

Read more @: Doctors Without Borders Staff Shot While Fleeing Kunduz Hospital, Report Finds

A war crime is war crime. Someone needs to be held accountable for these despicable actions. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Significantly missing from the reports is more data on who the patients were.

That's what's really worth knowing.

 

[Sherman123]

When we keep doing these horrible and stupid things, it adds to the propaganda to recruit more enemies to kill innocent people and our NATO troops. We need to start holding our own accountable to hopefully put a stop to these terrible criminal acts. Stop feeding their propaganda videos. Take responsibility. Show that we are a people of ethics and honor. We have shown far too often that we do not hold those things to be important in the eyes of the people on the ground.

We routinely take responsibility where appropriate. Quietly, and in our own courts, but we've done it throughout the war. Nothing would be of greater aid to a Taliban recruitment drive than a Hague investigation into their enemies activities. It is naive to think if we simply appealed to the better angels of those in the warzone we'd gain the credibility we need to outweigh the damage done. There is a reason we covered up massacres and other gross violations during World War II until after the war had come to a close, likewise we should (and thankfully do) do the same here.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Significantly missing from the reports is more data on who the patients were.

That's what's really worth knowing.

Treating unarmed combatants does not make it a legitimate target. This is grounded in the geneva convention, the Law of Armed Conflict, and the field manual of the law of land warfare.

 

[Riveroaks]

Not really. You don't think there isn't a vibrant media sphere in Afghanistan-Pakistan? An international inquiry would ensure a whirlwind of discussion and coverage, build up the issue to a fever pitch, enlarge its importance, and inevitably benefit the Taliban and its allies. Whereas this approach allows it to, eventually, take its place as another tragic incident among dozens of such incidents that have taken place over the course of the where.

It may make you angry but it doesn't make us look worse.

The US Army will do their own investigation.

Anything else on the ground there is too dangerous in that war zone.

 

[American]

But it is... And we kinda have admitted it.
Geneva IV Article 18: "Civilian hospitals organized to give care to the wounded and sick, the infirm and maternity cases, may in no circumstances be the object of attack but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict."
--Umm yea. We bombed that hospital--
Article 20: "Persons regularly and solely engaged in the operation and administration of civilian hospitals, including the personnel engaged in the search for, removal and transporting of and caring for wounded and sick civilians, the infirm and maternity cases shall be respected and protected."
--Umm yea. We targeted and killed staff--

Was it accidental?

 

[Riveroaks]

Treating unarmed combatants does not make it a legitimate target. This is grounded in the geneva convention, the Law of Armed Conflict, and the field manual of the law of land warfare.

Treating them with lead works much faster though.

If you are ready to concede that the hospital was treating the enemy, then end of the debate.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Was it accidental?

They admitted they directly targeted a hospital....

 

[Alyssa T.]

This is wishful thinking, the idea that if we only 'took responsibility' it would demonstrate our 'honor' that this hypothesized measure of placation would outweigh the damage done from making a media circus over this is naive at best.

Don't be absurd. The media circus over this has already been made. The use of this tragic event has probably already been twisted into recruitment purposes for our enemies. Taking responsibility and doing the right thing here will not hurt us any more than we already hurt ourselves with this disgusting act. The only thing we can do is show that we do have integrity and honor by taking action against those who are responsible for this crime.

This very important in the eyes of the people we are trying to build up over there. Come on, it isn't just about the enemy here. It is about everyone living in that nation we are trying to build up. Including those in the ANA that are supposed to be working with our ISAF troops. Haven't we had enough trouble with those guys too? We need to show some honor here. Burying our crimes will not accomplish that.

 

[Alyssa T.]

Treating them with lead works much faster though.

If you are ready to concede that the hospital was treating the enemy, then end of the debate.

No. Hospitals are there to treat those who are injured. They should never turn away any injured person if they can treat them. Your post doesn't make any sense.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Treating them with lead works much faster though.

If you are ready to concede that the hospital was treating the enemy, then end of the debate.

There is no debate to end. WE "treat the enemy" as well.... The hospital was treating civilians, unarmed Afghan soldiers, and uarmed Taliban. Again, not justification to bomb the hospital. If the hospital was being used to direct attacks from, or was used to fire on Afghan army positions, or cover for munitions directly being used in current attacks, then it would be justification only after the US gave the hospital warning and time to flee the area before the attacks. However: 1.)Was not being used for any of those things and 2.)we did not give warning to the hospital before the attack.