Do you think progressive policies on policing and prosecution work?

[ALiberalModerate]

Yes. Investing in our communities and providing them with a safety net definitely includes robust police services who protect them from criminals though.

Exactly, go build something nice in a neighborhood without adequate policing and see what happens to it.

 

[Bullseye]

Good post! Now support it with reputable citation and all of us here will be in your debt.
Thanks

Ain't worth it. my sources wouldn't be on the LW approved list.

 

[Gatsby]

This article is six years old and the trend holds true today.

No, there actually *was* a big surge of crime since 2016. The reasons for it are unclear; COVID seems to have played a big factor in a big spike around 2020 and a subsequent fall around 2022. But crime was increasing prior to COVID, for reasons that aren't yet well-understood. Possibly the opioid epidemic played a role too.

The reality is that we have much lower levels of crime today than in the 80s and 90s,

This is true. But also not relevant to most voters, who truly have seen a more recent rise and are understandably concerned about that.

yet some people would have you believe that everything is out of control except for police budgets, which expand year over year with little effect as a **** you to the taxpayer.

Denialism of both the recent crime wave and the most tried-and-true solution with tons of supporting evidence (e.g. more police in cities) is not helpful. There are few things that work more reliably at reducing crime than hiring more cops. It's not the only factor, but it's one of the most important and it gives near-instantaneous feedback.

Moreover, right wingers have a hard time convincing me that their supposed concerns about crime are anything more than bad faith fear mongering and screeching

I am reminded of a David Frum quote...he was talking about immigration but I think it applies equally well to crime.

"If liberals insist that only fascists will enforce [criminal laws], then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals refuse to do."

If you don't want people like Donald Trump to get elected, then stop giving them a way to distinguish themselves from you, in a way that's in their favor. Don't give voters a reason to believe that "I alone can fix" America, as Donald Trump once famously claimed.

 

[noonereal]

Ain't worth it. my sources wouldn't be on the LW approved list.

Oh!

You mean you only use nutter blogs for citation and not scholarly study.

Got it.

This also explains your posts on most subjects.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

When you say you're "not very intelligent" this is probably what you mean. Folks on your side of the spectrum (but not only) operate more on emotion than data.

Voters’ perceptions of crime continue to conflict with reality

Despite double-digit decreases in U.S. violent and property crime rates since 2008, most voters say crime has gotten worse during that span.

www.pewresearch.org

This article is six years old and the trend holds true today. The reality is that we have much lower levels of crime today than in the 80s and 90s, yet some people would have you believe that everything is out of control except for police budgets, which expand year over year with little effect as a **** you to the taxpayer.

Moreover, right wingers have a hard time convincing me that their supposed concerns about crime are anything more than bad faith fear mongering and screeching when y'all constantly elect criminals like Trump into office and you celebrate the blatant lawbreaking of billionaires like Musk cause he's on your "side" and conservatives worship money and power if nothing else.

Perception is reality when it comes to crime. However, crime up significantly since 2016: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/murder-homicide-rate

Moreover, telling voters that is a terrible idea. "Hey, I know crime is up, but it was worse in the 1980s." People don't live in the 1980s. They live in the present, and in the present, crime is up and violent crime in many cities is way up. For example, in my city, Kansas City, we are on track to have a record number of homicides. That would be an all-time record, not just a record since the 80s or 90s, but an all-time record. We are also down 300 police officers since 2016. The two are not unconnected.

 

[venice_ca]

I agree with you, but we should also throw in some aspects of hip hip culture (I like rap and hip hop a lot and listen to a it a lot, but every song is about drug dealing, gang violence, or sex - or some combination of that. It is way too common for popular artists to be killed at parties, clubs, or when they go home.). We also have to recognize that parenting plays a role. Kids don't have much of a chance in life when their parents either are not around or don't care. It's all too common for kids in the inner city to be raised by great grandparents because the other 2 generations failed them. Moreover, the biggest problem in inner city areas is not direct racism, white on black violence (there is actually around 11 times more black on white violence than the reverse), or police violence, it's black on black violence.

That all said, due to previous generations of redlining and white flight, most concentrated poverty in this country is in black neighborhoods. There are lots of white people that grow up in poverty, but poverty in white communities is seldom concentrated. Meaning that most white kids that grow up in poverty know people that are not in poverty. So they may have friends whose parents own businesses, other friends whose parents have good jobs at great companies and so on. Many if not most black kids that grow up in poverty, grow up in concentrated poverty where everyone they know is impoverished like they are. This is almost entirely due to past institutional racism and it is a huge obstacle to climbing out of poverty.

In the context of So Calif, I don’t think that some of your assertions are necessarily true. The suburbs, then exurbs, where people went to escape the “city” now have many of the same problems that originally were in the city. Plus employment mostly remains tied to the “city” and long commute times take their toll on the families. A hour+ commute from the high desert (northern L.A. County) to the L.A. basin isn’t unusual. Recessions don’t help, nor did industry moving to Mexico and Asia.

Drug laws and treatment also need to be rethought as a key piece of reform. I doubt if many, if any, cities and states have adequate mental health facilities.

 

[Allan]

Of course we have. We have Seattle. We have San Francisco. We did in Philidelphia. We did in St. Louis. I was in Seattle last year. My wife and I went up there for a few days just as a short vacation. It's a beautiful city in a beautiful setting. It's also one of the wealthiest cities in the world. In fact, one of the wealthiest cities the world has ever known.

This is not true, so your position arising from it is flawed. According to the US Census Seattle has a poverty rate of 10%. There are a number of cities in the US with lower poverty rates, three in Canada and many in Europe.

As for "one of the wealthiest cities in the world" it doesn't even make the top 10.

 

[coyote505]

Many of the policies you're referring to have already been implemented in parts of Europe for quite some time. They generally have much lower crime rates on average than we do.

Many Euro countries have more orderly citizens than we do. In normal times, this works out well----until someone says Achtung! March to Poland!

 

[jpevans]

Simple question, do you think that solidly progressive policing and prosecution policies as advocated by some progressive politicians and DAs work?

Community Policing seems to work. Body cameras have shown promise & have exposed some lapses of good police work. What else do you refer to? The Civilian’s on the board?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

This is not true, so your position arising from it is flawed. According to the US Census Seattle has a poverty rate of 10%. There are a number of cities in the US with lower poverty rates, three in Canada and many in Europe.

As for "one of the wealthiest cities in the world" it doesn't even make the top 10.

Median Household Income in Seattle is 105k a year. Which would be the 4th highest of any major city in the America's. Higher than any major city in Canada, and higher than any major city in Europe. Sure, you can look at some small cities and find higher incomes in some parts of the oil rich gulf states, but my assertion stands.

 

[MrWonka]

Many Euro countries have more orderly citizens than we do.

So your argument is that European people are just generally better people?

Here's reality. The reason many European countries have less crime is because they have fewer poor people and more freedom in general.
They don't lock people up for piddly little shit like smoking weed as much, and even after people are released from prison their odds of finding a job are still good.
They have social welfare policies that are aimed at ensuring people don't fall into destitution in the first place so they have no reason to commit crime to get out of it.

Progressives understand that Welfare spending is Defense spending. Instead of paying a cop $50,000 to protect your property, you can give 10 homeless people $5,000 per year to make sure they have a roof over their heads, with a cheap bed, access to restrooms and showers, and basic food allowance.
Poof!!! These people have no further reason to rob you.

I would encourage you to learn about Wethouses. To a conservative-minded person, they are an absolute nightmare, but economically they make a ton of sense and solve a boatload of problems.

Wet House

Wet House

www.wethouse.com

 

[post]

It depends what you mean by "progressive policing". If we're talking about Chesa Boudin, defunding the police, not prosecuting crimes, etc...then no, that's clearly been a miserable failure. It doesn't benefit anyone except criminals to let crime run rampant and make our cities less livable.

The best way to reduce crime, keep people safe, and (counterintuitively) reduce prison populations in the long run, is to catch more criminals. They don't necessarily need to be punished as severely as they sometimes are in the American justice system, but they do need to be punished.

Can you actually support your "No, that's clearly been," opinion?

How much is your POV influenced by the RWE political alliance with authoritarian, white supremacist oriented police departments and the money poured into
their disinfo campaigns?

Cash Bail Reform Is Not a Threat to Public Safety​

Center for American Progress
https://www.americanprogress.org › article › cash-bail...
Sep 19, 2022 — Put simply, releasing more people has not led to higher crime rates. The stories of individuals harmed by unjust cash bail systems, like the ...

 

[Allan]

Median Household Income in Seattle is 105k a year. Which would be the 4th highest of any major city in the America's. Higher than any major city in Canada, and higher than any major city in Europe. Sure, you can look at some small cities and find higher incomes and some parts of the oil rich gulf states, but my assertion stands.

Median income doesn't matter when it comes to crime if poverty is running 10%.

 

[bongsaway]

No. That is an absurd proposition.

Where conservatives tend to get it wrong on crime is the notion that making prison sentences longer will thwart crime. It's actually increasing the likelihood of getting caught that thwarts crime. For example, if speeding carries a 300 dollar fine, but a low likelihood of getting caught, you will have a lot of speeders because people will assume they likely won't get caught. However, if speeding carries just a 100 dollar fine, but a high likelihood of getting caught, you won't have much speeding.

Where liberals tend to get it wrong on crime is the notion that people commit crimes because of economic issues or injustice, and if you fix that, you won't have crime. That is partially true, but if you don't get crime under control, you can't have economic opportunity. Businesses will not invest in an area with high crime because they don't want to deal with the crime.

If you make it a high likelihood of getting caught and punished for crime, then you don't have to have longer and longer prison sentences.

Ok and how do you plan on making crime a high likelihood of getting caught?

 

[Blondie]

That’s a very general question. It’d be more useful to be specific of what types of progressive policing.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Median income doesn't matter when it comes to crime if poverty is running 10%.

It matters in terms of the ability to prosecute shoplifting. It matters in terms of being able to afford to provide enough law and order to prevent business owners from having to board up open businesses.

 

[Ginger Ale]

They work in countries smart enough to have gun control that actually does something plus the other social programs. You can't just do a tiny bit, in this sea of shit, and expect a good return.

 

[Gatsby]

Can you actually support your "No, that's clearly been," opinion?

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

SF has climbed all the way up to #4 in the country for property crime, and #7 for overall crime. It wasn't always this bad. That's really unacceptable for one of the wealthiest cities in the world. With SF's density, it should be as safe as NYC.

How much is your POV influenced by the RWE political alliance

Not at all?

with authoritarian, white supremacist oriented police departments and the money poured into
their disinfo campaigns?

My point of view is influenced by actually living in downtown SF during the height of the crime surge in 2020 and early 2021.

 

[Bullseye]

Oh!

You mean you only use nutter blogs for citation and not scholarly study.

Got it.

This also explains your posts on most subjects.

Nope, it means I don't waste my time answering LW nutters demands.

 

[Allan]

My point of view is influenced by actually living in downtown SF during the height of the crime surge in 2020 and early 202021.

What crime surge?

 

[Gatsby]

What crime surge?

View attachment 67452273

Property crime.

 

[venice_ca]

@post re #62
The recall effort against George Gascon in Los Angeles County failed to qualify for the ballot due to insufficient number of signatures from qualified voters.

 

[post]

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

SF has climbed all the way up to #4 in the country for property crime, and #7 for overall crime. It wasn't always this bad. That's really unacceptable for one of the wealthiest cities in the world. With SF's density, it should be as safe as NYC.

Not at all?

My point of view is influenced by actually living in downtown SF during the height of the crime surge in 2020 and early 2021.

From your article, and note that your anecdotal experience tracks nicely with pandemic influenced, sudden emptying of city sidewalks and nightlife, along with
the impact on the local Asian community of the demonizing "china virus," "kung foo flu," racist deflection campaign of Trump-Bannon.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/03/politics/san-francisco-crime-rate-what-matters/index.html

":What’s happening in San Francisco?​

WOLF: I’m out here on the East Coast. I see that businesses like Nordstrom and Whole Foods are leaving downtown San Francisco, and there is this theme that crime is driving them away. What’s your view?

ESKENAZI: There is crime in downtown San Francisco, but there always has been.

I think the notion that these businesses were driven out by crime is frankly dishonest. That’s always been a factor. But it wasn’t like Mid-Market (where the Nordstrom is located) was a serene place before the pandemic.

I think the Nordstrom people were very responsible in what they said. The letter that was sent to everybody was very upfront that there was decreased foot traffic. They weren’t making money.

It wasn’t good business for them anymore. And Nordstrom, in fact, closed their Stonestown Mall outlet in 2019, which is a mall more in the periphery of San Francisco.

So the problem here is that your big, high-end, mall-type retail is dying. It was already having lots of trouble before the pandemic and that kind of greased the skids. That’s a big problem for downtown San Francisco. It’s hundreds of thousands of square feet of retail space that’s suddenly going to go vacant.

To say it was chased out by crime is a preferred narrative of people for their own worldview.

I just looked back and found an article that I wrote in 2014 about complaints that one out of every four police calls in that district was in or near the Westfield Mall. That was there before."

 

[Gatsby]

From your article, and note that your anecdotal experience tracks nicely with pandemic influenced, sudden emptying of city sidewalks and nightlife, along with
the impact on the local Asian community of the demonizing "china virus," "kung foo flue," racist deflection campaign of Trump=Bannon.

The pandemic definitely played a large role in it, yes.

 

[Surrealistik]

It depends what you mean by "progressive policing". If we're talking about Chesa Boudin, defunding the police, not prosecuting crimes, etc...then no, that's clearly been a miserable failure. It doesn't benefit anyone except criminals to let crime run rampant and make our cities less livable.

The best way to reduce crime, keep people safe, and (counterintuitively) reduce prison populations in the long run, is to catch more criminals. They don't necessarily need to be punished as severely as they sometimes are in the American justice system, but they do need to be punished.

While I certainly don't agree with a blanket/wholesale 'defund the police' approach (though they could do with far less militarization) and taking a hands off approach to enforcement, it's important to keep in mind that the best way to reduce crime in the long term is to have a good standard of living and strong economic opportunities and otherwise combat the structural causes of crime in the first place ( https://journalofeconomicstructures.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40008-020-00220-6#Sec4 ). The only way you can possibly police away the fallout of such underlying issues is by going truly draconian ala China.