Do you support the Nordic model for the US?

[aociswundumho]

All UHC systems deliver services less expensively.

Putting someone on a six month waiting list doesn't cost the government anything. If they die while on the waiting list, that's even more savings.

 

[Allan]

Putting someone on a six month waiting list doesn't cost the government anything. If they die while on the waiting list, that's even more savings.

A perfect example of someone that doesn't know anything about our system.

 

[tharock220]

Putting someone on a six month waiting list doesn't cost the government anything. If they die while on the waiting list, that's even more savings.

Generally nobody dies waiting for treatment. It's the waiting for everyone else that sucks.

Every year during open enrollment I'm given the option to switch insurance plans. I always choose the PPO. The HMO option that requires me to see a regular doctor before a specialist, and I always look at it and say to myself, "If I wanted that, I'd move to Canada".

 

[jmotivator]

Yeah, the Scandinavians seem to have a much better quality of life than we do and are much happier as a result of it. I would happy to pay more in taxes for it. And vote to force the richest to pay their fair share, or they can get the Hell out of our country.

Generally when you hear the claim that Scandinavians are "more happy" you can trace it back to happiness-indexes that, when you crack them open, don't actually have anything to do with happiness. What they include is a list of government conveniences that the study creators pre-suppose lead to happiness.

If you choose not to use politicized assumptions that government largess=happiness, you find that ACTUAL measures of happiness (like depression and other forms of mental health) show that Scandinavian countries are really no more happy than many other parts of the world.

 

[jmotivator]

A perfect example of someone that doesn't know anything about our system.

Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada, 2024 Report

www.fraserinstitute.org

The longest I've ever had to wait for a specialist here in the US is a month, and that was as a new patient. After the first visit the wait time can be as little as a few days.

 

[Allan]

The longest I've ever had to wait for a specialist here in the US is a month,

The longest I've waited is 4 days.

 

[Felis Leo]

Generally when you hear the claim that Scandinavians are "more happy" you can trace it back to happiness-indexes that, when you crack them open, don't actually have anything to do with happiness. What they include is a list of government conveniences that the study creators pre-suppose lead to happiness.

If you choose not to use politicized assumptions that government largess=happiness, you find that ACTUAL measures of happiness (like depression and other forms of mental health) show that Scandinavian countries are really no more happy than many other parts of the world.

I have no doubt that is true to some extent, jmotivator. A robust social safety net does eliminate the “hedonic treadmill” effect. And a social safety net cannot automatically give you a lasting feeling of satisfaction or self-worth or fulfillment. That having been said, it does help to mitigate the miseries that countries like ours face, such as medical debt-driven bankruptcy.

 

[jmotivator]

I have no doubt that is true to some extent, jmotivator. A robust social safety net does eliminate the “hedonic treadmill” effect. And a social safety net cannot automatically give you a lasting feeling of satisfaction or self-worth or fulfillment. That having been said, it does help to mitigate the miseries that countries like ours face, such as medical debt-driven bankruptcy.

But it really doesn't. Depression isn't significantly lower in those countries on average, and based on the depression split in countries like the US, sadness is driven more by politics than by lack of government largess. I mean, it you accept the Democrat narrative that Republicans are poor yokels AND that the US is a grinding slog of bills until you die, then it becomes hard to square that with the supposedly more affluent Democrats are ~25% more likely to be depressed than the poor wage-slave Republicans.

Generally I find happiness to be better connected to the fostering of reasonable life expectations and purpose. Insofar as Scandinavians are happier I would guess it has more to do with cultural outlook than government handouts. But again, the actual happiness of Scandinavians isn't out of step with most Western countries.

 

[jmotivator]

The longest I've waited is 4 days.

Is that for a GP appointment, a Specialist appointment, or an actual procedure?

 

[Dans La Lune]

But it really doesn't. Depression isn't significantly lower in those countries on average, and based on the depression split in countries like the US, sadness is driven more by politics than by lack of government largess. I mean, it you accept the Democrat narrative that Republicans are poor yokels AND that the US is a grinding slog of bills until you die, then it becomes hard to square that with the supposedly more affluent Democrats are ~25% more likely to be depressed than the poor wage-slave Republicans.

Generally I find happiness to be better connected to the fostering of reasonable life expectations and purpose. Insofar as Scandinavians are happier I would guess it has more to do with cultural outlook than government handouts. But again, the actual happiness of Scandinavians isn't out of step with most Western countries.

'Finland continues to rank as the world's happiest country for the eighth consecutive year, maintaining its top position in the 2025 World Happiness Report, with its quality of life and happiness driven by strong social support, trust in institutions, and a high standard of living. The country also ranked first in the 2025 Quality of Life in Retirement report, excelling in happiness, water and sanitation, and air quality, with an overall quality of life score of 89 percent.

• Finland's high happiness is attributed to its robust social-support system, including comprehensive welfare benefits, low crime and corruption, and a strong emphasis on work-life balance.
• The country performs well across multiple dimensions of well-being, including education, work-life balance, environmental quality, social connections, safety, and life satisfaction, according to the OECD Better Life Index.
• Finland's world-class education system, high life expectancy (82 years), and excellent air quality (PM2.5 level of 5.5 micrograms per cubic meter) contribute significantly to its quality of life.
• The Finnish population reports high levels of life satisfaction, with an average rating of 7.9 out of 10, well above the OECD average of 6.7.
• Despite these strengths, a decline in work-life balance has been noted in recent years, particularly affecting women and those in the lowest income quartiles, although Finland still maintains a comparatively high level of work-life balance when compared to the EU average.
• Finland's commitment to equality, gender equality, and strong protections for minorities fosters a socially inclusive environment that supports overall happiness.
• The country's connection with nature, access to forests and lakes, and the cultural significance of the sauna are key elements of daily life and contribute to personal wellbeing.

Eight years in a row: Finland remains in first place in World Happiness Report – other Nordics in top 7 - thisisFINLAND

We’re happy to note that Finland has been the happiest country on the planet since 2018, according to the World Happiness Report. How does Finland’s “infrastructure of happiness” help happiness happen?

finland.fi

• Finland has been ranked the world’s happiest country for the eighth consecutive year in the 2025 World Happiness Report, maintaining its top position based on a three-year average of self-reported life evaluations from 2022 to 2024.
• The United States dropped to 24th place in the 2025 report, marking its lowest ranking ever since the survey began in 2012, having previously been ranked 11th.
• Finland’s high ranking is attributed to a combination of strong public welfare systems, including universal healthcare, low income inequality, and subsidized higher education, alongside cultural practices such as regular sauna use, deep connection to nature, and the concept of "sisu" (determination through adversity).
• The U.S. decline is linked to factors including rising social isolation—evidenced by a 53% increase in Americans eating meals alone over the past two decades—and increased political polarization, which have contributed to declining life satisfaction, particularly among younger Americans.
• Nordic countries, including Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden, consistently rank among the top five, reflecting the region’s strong social support systems, low corruption, and high levels of social trust.
• Costa Rica and Mexico entered the top 10 for the first time in 2025, with Costa Rica at 6th and Mexico at 10th, due to strong social networks and confidence in institutions.
• The report highlights that generosity and belief in the kindness of others are significant predictors of happiness, even more so than income, and that people’s communities are often more supportive than they perceive.
• At the bottom of the index, Afghanistan ranked as the least happy country, followed by Lebanon, Sierra Leone, Malawi, and Zimbabwe, countries facing conflict or humanitarian crises.'

'

 

[Allan]

Is that for a GP appointment, a Specialist appointment, or an actual procedure?

Specialist - eye surgeon.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Libertarians are naturally the loneliest people on Earth. Because it's their ideology.

 

[jmotivator]

Specialist - eye surgeon.

Surgery or consultation? The study I presented to you was for the actual procedure wait times.

 

[Bum]

Do you support the Nordic model for the US?​

Yusssss!

 

[Surrealistik]

'Finland continues to rank as the world's happiest country for the eighth consecutive year, maintaining its top position in the 2025 World Happiness Report, with its quality of life and happiness driven by strong social support, trust in institutions, and a high standard of living. The country also ranked first in the 2025 Quality of Life in Retirement report, excelling in happiness, water and sanitation, and air quality, with an overall quality of life score of 89 percent.

• Finland's high happiness is attributed to its robust social-support system, including comprehensive welfare benefits, low crime and corruption, and a strong emphasis on work-life balance.
• The country performs well across multiple dimensions of well-being, including education, work-life balance, environmental quality, social connections, safety, and life satisfaction, according to the OECD Better Life Index.
• Finland's world-class education system, high life expectancy (82 years), and excellent air quality (PM2.5 level of 5.5 micrograms per cubic meter) contribute significantly to its quality of life.
• The Finnish population reports high levels of life satisfaction, with an average rating of 7.9 out of 10, well above the OECD average of 6.7.
• Despite these strengths, a decline in work-life balance has been noted in recent years, particularly affecting women and those in the lowest income quartiles, although Finland still maintains a comparatively high level of work-life balance when compared to the EU average.
• Finland's commitment to equality, gender equality, and strong protections for minorities fosters a socially inclusive environment that supports overall happiness.
• The country's connection with nature, access to forests and lakes, and the cultural significance of the sauna are key elements of daily life and contribute to personal wellbeing.

Eight years in a row: Finland remains in first place in World Happiness Report – other Nordics in top 7 - thisisFINLAND

We’re happy to note that Finland has been the happiest country on the planet since 2018, according to the World Happiness Report. How does Finland’s “infrastructure of happiness” help happiness happen?

finland.fi

• Finland has been ranked the world’s happiest country for the eighth consecutive year in the 2025 World Happiness Report, maintaining its top position based on a three-year average of self-reported life evaluations from 2022 to 2024.
• The United States dropped to 24th place in the 2025 report, marking its lowest ranking ever since the survey began in 2012, having previously been ranked 11th.
• Finland’s high ranking is attributed to a combination of strong public welfare systems, including universal healthcare, low income inequality, and subsidized higher education, alongside cultural practices such as regular sauna use, deep connection to nature, and the concept of "sisu" (determination through adversity).
• The U.S. decline is linked to factors including rising social isolation—evidenced by a 53% increase in Americans eating meals alone over the past two decades—and increased political polarization, which have contributed to declining life satisfaction, particularly among younger Americans.
• Nordic countries, including Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden, consistently rank among the top five, reflecting the region’s strong social support systems, low corruption, and high levels of social trust.
• Costa Rica and Mexico entered the top 10 for the first time in 2025, with Costa Rica at 6th and Mexico at 10th, due to strong social networks and confidence in institutions.
• The report highlights that generosity and belief in the kindness of others are significant predictors of happiness, even more so than income, and that people’s communities are often more supportive than they perceive.
• At the bottom of the index, Afghanistan ranked as the least happy country, followed by Lebanon, Sierra Leone, Malawi, and Zimbabwe, countries facing conflict or humanitarian crises.'

'

I have no doubt that is true to some extent, jmotivator. A robust social safety net does eliminate the “hedonic treadmill” effect. And a social safety net cannot automatically give you a lasting feeling of satisfaction or self-worth or fulfillment. That having been said, it does help to mitigate the miseries that countries like ours face, such as medical debt-driven bankruptcy.

It is further notable that, per the Happiness Index, all 5 Nordic countries (Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland and Denmark) lead the US for both reported positive and negative emotion measures (i.e. higher prevalence of positive emotional states, lower prevalence of negative ones):

https://data.worldhappiness.report/table

 

[jmotivator]

A bunch of stuff proving my point

You could have read what I have written and just skipped proving my point. The happiness-index you are presenting doesn't actually measure happiness, it measures social policy which isn't happiness.

 

[Dans La Lune]

You could have read what I have written and just skipped proving my point. The happiness-index you are presenting doesn't actually measure happiness, it measures social policy which isn't happiness.

Um, how the **** do you measure happiness if not quality of well-being and satisfaction in life? Go ahead and list your metric.

 

[Allan]

Surgery or consultation? The study I presented to you was for the actual procedure wait times.

There wasn't really much of a wait time.

The length of time between initial diagnosis and surgery was determined by the steps involved - two surgeon appointments and the course of eye drops necessary prior to the surgery.

The first surgery was 3 weeks after initial diagnosis.

 

[rahl]

Putting someone on a six month waiting list doesn't cost the government anything. If they die while on the waiting list, that's even more savings.

There are waiting lists in the US. We know empirically that single payer systems and universal healthcare systems provide better care at a fraction of the cost of the US system.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada, 2024 Report

www.fraserinstitute.org

The longest I've ever had to wait for a specialist here in the US is a month, and that was as a new patient. After the first visit the wait time can be as little as a few days.

'The United States primarily rations healthcare through market forces, with access largely determined by ability to pay. This results in a system where individuals with private insurance, often through employment, or those who can afford high out-of-pocket costs receive care, while those without insurance or sufficient funds are often unable to access necessary services. This form of rationing is evident in the high number of uninsured Americans, with nearly 46 million lacking coverage in 2009, and the fact that many people forgo needed care due to cost.

Private health insurance companies play a significant role in rationing by setting coverage limits, creating complex claims processes that delay or deny care, and establishing drug formularies that restrict access to certain medications based on cost and effectiveness. These insurers often deny coverage for pre-existing conditions or impose higher premiums and waiting periods, effectively rationing care based on health status. The Affordable Care Act aimed to reduce some of these practices by prohibiting denial of coverage based on pre-existing conditions and eliminating lifetime and annual coverage caps.'

Rationing Healthcare? We're Already Doing It

The question today is not whether to start rationing healthcare. We are already rationing, based in large part on the ability to pay. The question is how to alter the terms in a way that balances fairness and efficiency.

www.carnegiecouncil.org

 

[jmotivator]

It is further notable that, per the Happiness Index, all 5 Nordic countries (Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland and Denmark) lead the US for both reported positive and negative emotion measures (i.e. higher prevalence of positive emotional states, lower prevalence of negative ones):

That's an interesting chart. I haven't really dug into the rating system, but kind of ominous for the top ranking "happiest" countries also ranking so low on generosity, donations, volunteering and helping strangers.

 

[Bighorn66]

Are you kidding me?
Republicans only know about being the victim and claiming they're the most persicuted people in history.

They don't want people to be happy they want everyone to work themselves to death for the benefit of the billionaire class who they think are just better people.
Not wanting to work constantly is a sure sign of being a communist for them and having a work life ballance is for wimps and losers.

Just look at Trump, he's the President and yet he looks like he's never had a happy day in his entire life and acts like a spoiled toddler.

For you and those who agree with you, I offered scientific evidence that Progressives are more unhappy.

Opinion | The Happiness Gap Between Left and Right Isn’t Closing (Published 2024)

Why is it that a substantial body of social science research finds that conservatives are happier than liberals?

www.nytimes.com

Why Being Conservative is Correlated with Higher Happiness - Equity in America

How bothered have you been witnessing someone in a public place being treated unfairly because of their race? How has the pandemic impacted your mental health? Thinking about climate change makes me feel anxious. [Agree/disagree] Someone [I] know has been unfairly stopped, searched, questioned...

equityresearch.tufts.edu

 

[jmotivator]

There wasn't really much of a wait time.

The length of time between initial diagnosis and surgery was determined by the steps involved - two surgeon appointments and the course of eye drops necessary prior to the surgery.

The first surgery was 3 weeks after initial diagnosis.

Then you were way ahead of the curve for your country, per that study.

 

[jmotivator]

'The United States primarily rations healthcare through market forces, with access largely determined by ability to pay. This results in a system where individuals with private insurance, often through employment, or those who can afford high out-of-pocket costs receive care, while those without insurance or sufficient funds are often unable to access necessary services. This form of rationing is evident in the high number of uninsured Americans, with nearly 46 million lacking coverage in 2009, and the fact that many people forgo needed care due to cost.

Private health insurance companies play a significant role in rationing by setting coverage limits, creating complex claims processes that delay or deny care, and establishing drug formularies that restrict access to certain medications based on cost and effectiveness. These insurers often deny coverage for pre-existing conditions or impose higher premiums and waiting periods, effectively rationing care based on health status. The Affordable Care Act aimed to reduce some of these practices by prohibiting denial of coverage based on pre-existing conditions and eliminating lifetime and annual coverage caps.'

Rationing Healthcare? We're Already Doing It

The question today is not whether to start rationing healthcare. We are already rationing, based in large part on the ability to pay. The question is how to alter the terms in a way that balances fairness and efficiency.

www.carnegiecouncil.org

The "Nordic system" also rations treatment on ability to pay and market forces, FYI. Until medications are free and healthcare workers are slaves, this will always be true.

 

[Surrealistik]

That's an interesting chart. I haven't really dug into the rating system, but kind of ominous for the top ranking "happiest" countries also ranking so low on generosity, donations, volunteering and helping strangers.

Okay, but, even if true (I haven't seen the stats related to your claim) that's irrelevant to this specific point of dispute; apparently these countries, without a solitary exception, clearly lead the US in happiness on two directly relevant and important metrics.