The link said things very differently than the lies NP spewed. It didn't make the false claims about babies and whatnot, and did NOT spew NP's lie about viability, f.ex.DeeJayH said:are you kidding me
you agree with a link that says what NP and the rest have been saying
yet you still call NPs post lies :roll:
Do you have anything meaningful to contribute, or are you just going to rant and ask to be ignored in this tread?DeeJayH said:you are so brainwashed by the pro-choice scissor to the freaking skull fabrication sites
I hear denial is state of happiness? is it true?
steen said:Do you have anything meaningful to contribute, or are you just going to rant and ask to be ignored in this tread?
DeeJayH said:judging by your replies, it would seem i, and the rest of us, already are being ignored by you:2wave:
If you have meaningful stuff to contribute, then show me.DeeJayH said:judging by your replies, it would seem i, and the rest of us, already are being ignored by you:2wave:
steen said:? What "kid"? What "chance to survive"? You were doing so well, posting the accurate description and all, but now you regress into perpetuating the pro-life lies again. This is a second-trimester procedure, the fetus is not viable, it is not sentient, it is not sensate.
Well, actually if you don't kill them and they live that's exactly what they are.And these fetuses are not preemies
You guys need to stop getting your information from pro-life pro-lie sites so you can instead have a reasonal and educated discussion about this.
steen said:The whole purpose of doing the procedure is to collapse the skull of the non-sensate, non-sentient, non-viable fetus so the woman doesn't need as much cervical dilation as if regular induction or the D&E was used.
:applaudtalloulou said::funny
Yeah except you're wrong they do induce labor and dilate the cervix. And the reason they stab the poor thing in the skull and suck out the brains with it's head still inside while it's legs dangle out is cause if they didn't kill it before it was entirely delivered it would be illegal to kill it at all and plus if the poor head was out when it got that forceful punch of the scissors you'd probably hear the little non-sensate whatever you want to call it screaming and crying something bloody awful until the unwanted brains were finally vacumned out.
I'm sorry I'm just not down with that. That is some sick shite!!!
Ah, there is the rub. Pro-life pretends that the D&X is done on viable fetuses. It is done generally in weeks 16-22, still a couple weeks shy of viability.talloulou said:Hey when a fetus comes out I call it a kid. But have it your way.... If the fetus didn't get stabbed in the skull with the scissors there is a possibility that it could survive outside the womb depending upon its gestational age.
24 weeks is viability. That is when 50% of preemies are expected to SURVIVE. We are not talking about avoiding the severe mental retardation and sitting in a corner drooling and banging their head against the wall, only about survival. And when the D&X are done, 24 is rather the upper level of being able to do the procedure. Perhaps you weren't paying attention up above when I was talking about the width of the fetal torso, and how it becomes so wide that the procedure becomes meaningless, and how then the induction instead becomes a much better choice?Preemies are now surviving even when they are born as early as 21 wks-25wks.
No, it is a pro-life emotional distortion, it is a myth deliberately perpetrated by dishonest pro-lifers who had to exaggerate on reality to provide even MORE of an emotional appeal, outright lying in the process.So if the stabbing of the skull with the scissors isn't done there is the chance that the fetus could survive out of the womb as a preemie instead of an "aborted dead fetus."
Nope, it is done generally from 16-22 weeks.D&X surgery is generally only done once the gestational age of 21 wks has passed.
They are. 0.15% or less.Hopefully these surgeries are rare.
It isn't.But since it is possible for those fetus to survive
By excessive harm to the cervix.why not give 'em a chance instead of stabbing them in the head with scissors? The fetus will be out of the mother's body either way so how is she affected?
And it is dilated LESS!!!!! Of course it is dilated. But it is much less than with a D&E or with induction. The biggest thing that is going to pass through that cervix is the fetal head. The bigger that head is, the more the cervix is dilated.And you are wrong about the cervix not dilating and labor not being induced. If you read the website I posted it specifically states....
"Preliminary procedures are performed over a period of 2-3 days, to gradually dilate the cervix"
And your book is the most ignorant claptrap I have ever heard off. Go learn something instead of just spouting nonsense claims. Induction of labor involved giving medication that causes uterine contractions or rupturing membranes and thus generating uterine contractions in that way. Uterine contractions would make the D&X much more difficult....in my book that is "inducing labor."
Nope.Well, actually if you don't kill them and they live that's exactly what they are.
And it is not a scientific source either. It lacks greatly in specifics and accuracy.My info came from wikipedia.....that is not a prolife site.
false. You have no clue what that means, obviously. You are arguing from ignorance, which merely makes your absolutist claims seem stupid.talloulou said:Yeah except you're wrong they do induce labor
But not as much as with the D&E or with induction of labor.and dilate the cervix.
Why is non-sensate, non-sentient tissue somehow "poor"? You are resorting to emotional histrionics here.And the reason they stab the poor thing
Nonsense. It isn't viable. The reason is to reduce the diameter of the largest part of the fetus so the cervix doesn't need to be dilated as much as with other procedures.in the skull and suck out the brains with it's head still inside while it's legs dangle out is cause if they didn't kill it before it was entirely delivered it would be illegal to kill it
There you go with the histrionics again. Why is it "poor" Are you talking about "poor " tumors who have just as much sensation and sentience s the fetal head? Your remarks again sound outright as if all you have going for you is emotional fervorat all and plus if the poor head
Another stupid, emotionally-only driven remark. There are nothing even remotely resembling functional lungs at this time. You are back to the spewing of ignorant, emotional rants.was out when it got that forceful punch of the scissors you'd probably hear the little non-sensate whatever you want to call it screaming and crying something bloody awful until the unwanted brains were finally vacumned out.
As you describe it. That's not reality, however. Perhaps you would think that to be honest you should actually know about this stuff rather than spewing emotional rants?I'm sorry I'm just not down with that. That is some sick shite!!!
What kind of factual and realistic objections do you have?earthworm said:It is shocking that so many support "partial birth abortion".
What kind of people are on this forum, anyway ?
So there is kind of hope for you.I am far from the so-called religious right - in some ways I despise these people.
Ah, forced surgery on those with a different view than you. :roll: Perhaps you despise the fundie right, but you sure sound like them.A so-called mother(yet to be) who has no respect for anothers life deserves to have her tubes tied , at least !
Yes, they are still trying to enslave and oppress women.No question, the barbarians in our society(and the entire world) are still alive and well, apparently will be about for another 1,000 years .
steen said:Nope, it is done generally from 16-22 weeks.
They are. 0.15% or less.
And no, labor is NOT induced, that is another pro-life LIE, inherent in trying to portray this as a birth.
I haven't used a prolife site for the source of any of my info. So as usual your just spouting hatred with no provocation.Almost EVERYTHING that pro-lifers claim about this is vilifying propaganda lies.
Why don't you go ahead and post your non-biased source that you can agree with? Also, a couple posts ago you agreed the source was fine, funny how it now doesn't suit you.And it is not a scientific source either. It lacks greatly in specifics and accuracy.
earthworm said:It is shocking that so many support "partial birth abortion".
What kind of people are on this forum, anyway ?
steen said:There you go with the histrionics again. Why is it "poor" Are you talking about "poor " tumors who have just as much sensation and sentience s the fetal head? Your remarks again sound outright as if all you have going for you is emotional fervor
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Ummm...humans are killed under other circumstances for legitimate reasons...war, self-defense, punishment for crimes committed. Only the unborn are killed without cause.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:No person is born without special rights or powers over any other.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Since you can't dispute the fact that humans are human from conception...
Scarecrow Akhbar said:... it follows that incubators don't have any special rights to kill humans anywhere, including those she's volunteered to start inside her.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:I can discuss morality because I'm consistent.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:In general, punish for criminal acts is intended as a deterrent to others to show them that they shouldn't engage in that behavior.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Locking incubators up that have murdered their children is no different than locking up Scott Peterson....who murdered his child as well as his wife.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Personally, I'm opposed to informing the government of any birth, since the government only views children and people as resources to be exploited.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:People aren't dogs, and shouldn't be euthanized without their permission. The unborn are not legally competent to grant that permission, nor are new-born infants.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Which is no different than throwing the unwanted ones in the dumpster. Do you think the trash kids should get an expensive lethal injection, an inexpensive .22 bullet, or a reusable club to the head, or should someone just be hired to swing them by their ankles and smash their skulls on the nearest tree?
Scarecrow Akhbar said:First you say that any "unwanted" child should be murdered, now you're saying that you're not saying that.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:I'm not morally conflicted by the assertion that sterilizing the planet outside borders of the United States would secure the safety of my children from terrorist animals, and saying that individual incubators aren't granted special rights to commit murder.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:No, abortion is an abdication of responsibility, an avoidance of the consequences. She already accepted the responsibility of incubating the child when she volunteered for the hot beef injection.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Since she did volunteer to start the child, she's already surrendered her claim for sole control of her body for the whole getstational period.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Yeah, it does, just like one accepts the consequences of jumping out of a flying airplane. There's no going back.
mpg said:Does PBA or any other abortion EVER protect the life or the health of the mother?
steen said:No, it is a pro-life emotional distortion, it is a myth deliberately perpetrated by dishonest pro-lifers who had to exaggerate on reality to provide even MORE of an emotional appeal, outright lying in the process.
I'll dig it out later. remind me if I forget this weekend.talloulou said:Every medical or science journal website I have checked reports they are all done after 20 wks. Where are you getting your info?
It is to the women that are denied this procedure when it would be beneficial to them. That's the reality of pro-life intrusion into medical decisions, the harming of other people.Well actually it doesn't seem clear how often D&X's are performed. Hopefully the number is small and therefore banning the procedure shouldn't be such a problem.
The most reliable sources I have seen counts about 800-1500 per year.However every non-biased website I have looked at states it is impossible to get a clear picture of how often this procedure is performed.
But this is not how dilation is done. It is done through inserts. This is specifically done to avoid induction of contractions. Mechanical dilators called Laminaria are inserted in the cervix one after the other at varying sizes and expandability, until the desired dilation is acheived. There is no induction, no labor.When you give medication to cause cervical dilation that is equivelant to inducing labor.
Rather, perhaps you should educate yourself about the subject before accusing me for your ignorance.If you want disagree that's fine. There are people who will argue 2+2=5. There's no point in debating points like that.
But your sites likely did not use the medical/scientific information, which leaves mainly the enormous amount of pro-life lie-sites out there. Did you check the sources for the information on those sites? Wikipedia does have source and discussion pages involved. You should take a look at them for the accuracy of the claims.I haven't used a prolife site for the source of any of my info. So as usual your just spouting hatred with no provocation.
No, I agreed with what you quoted from Wikipedia, while clearly noting that it is not scientific. As the rest of your claims that you said came from the same site, they are generally false.Why don't you go ahead and post your non-biased source that you can agree with? Also, a couple posts ago you agreed the source was fine, funny how it now doesn't suit you.
he would rather just say you are stupid, ignorant or a liar rather than back up his barbaric delusions with factstalloulou said:Every medical or science journal website I have checked reports they are all done after 20 wks. Where are you getting your info?
And if you ban the D&X, what you are left with is the D&E.talloulou said:They don't. Check out the poll results so far. Most people don't support this crap. If they had a majority vote to decide this issue D&X's would be banned.
And for "proof" you provide a non-scientific site. Uhum.... Emotinally-laden antropomor[phizing. That's not science, that is propaganda.talloulou said:I disagree with you on the point that a 20 wk old fetus is similar to a tumor and most of the scientific community does to.
@#!$@#@$#%$@# Not again!!! I have done so several times.Why don't you post a source that shows that 20 wk old fetus aren't capable of crying, backing away from a needle, or having any emotions?
See the links just above. Now get a grip and start LEARNING what the hell you are talking about instead of spewing the stupid and ignorant pro-life platitudes and falsehoods.Show me a medical website or Dr. who claims what you claim....20wk old fetus has no emotion, no fear, no crying, no pain, like a tumor. Go ahead. Once you find a non biased site that supports what you spew then you will have a legitimate argument.
The D&X is specifically designed to reduce the needed cervical dilation and thus helps both the woman and subsequent pregnancies.mpg said:Does PBA or any other abortion EVER protect the life or the health of the mother?
Hmm, how hypocritical for you to NOT have provided any evidence other than pro-life yammering.DeeJayH said:and yet you provide NO PROOF for your assertions
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