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Do you see some hypocrisy in this announcement, I'm thinkin' Wikileaks

So, you never tell a friend anything you expect to be kept between the two of you?
 
Harshaw said:
So, you never tell a friend anything you expect to be kept between the two of you?
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Actually no I don't. And when someone starts with me, "Don't tell anyone, but..." I stop them. I really do.
 
No one lives like that. No one wants to live like that. No one can be expected to live like that. That is indeed naive. It may be fine for you, but to expect it from the rest of the world is silly.
 
Harshaw said:
No one lives like that. No one wants to live like that. No one can be expected to live like that. That is indeed naive. It may be fine for you, but to expect it from the rest of the world is silly.
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Idealistic, I agree. But in my little world that controlled, ie myself and my kids, seem to have very strong and reliable ties compared to many families where lies and two-faced "tact" is expected.

And it can't be said NO ONE lives like that because I do, with the exception of business dealings wherein, as I admitted earlier, I know how to play the game.
 
The world will never, ever be that way. And to hold us to that standard is suicidal.
 
Harshaw said:
The world will never, ever be that way. And to hold us to that standard is suicidal.
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Of course it won't, I'm just discussing my idealistic opinion, and my personal choice of personal behavior for myself, not reality in the larger world, and I've made that clear over and over, so you repeating it over and over is getting tiresome.
 
Summerwind,

You are not the only one that thinks that way. I have already posted a few posts stating that I live by the same belief.
 
Harshaw said:
Would you consider it a matter of "Free Speech" if someone posted your medical records or credit card records online?
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There is a big difference between posting a persons medical records and credit card records online vs government information. That difference is that a person is a private entity. The government is not a private entity. The government is of the people and for the people. A case could be made that by classifying information from its citizens the government is going against the dictates of its founding principles.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Summerwind,

You are not the only one that thinks that way. I have already posted a few posts stating that I live by the same belief.
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I catch a lot of crap for it. I mean I try to be as courteous with my honesty as possible but in this society, people would rather be lied to generally and lying is somehow PC where telling the truth is not.

Example: A friend has bought an outfit. Now this friend is easily 50#s overweight and it's all in the belly, butt, and thighs. The outfit entails a pair of slinky, stretch pants that are showing rolls of fat and even the celluloid cauliflowers... I tell the truth as courteously as possible. I am told that's not the right thing to do. Apparently lying is the preferred answer, UNLESS I'm there when she's trying it on before she buys it, and then instead of saying it looks atrocious (more courteously) I'm supposed to simply say I prefer something else she tried on. Or so I'm told. Men don't seem to have as much trouble with my honesty and perceived bluntness, but women go nuts.
 
I like the idealistic idea that honesty is the best policy, but I agree with Harshaw that the world in general does (and should) not operate like that. It works on the level of the nuclear family very well, I'm sure, but when it comes to large-scale politics, I want my politicians to be able to lie. I'd much rather have two powerful world leaders pretend to like each other than have a war(or more cause for one) because of petty insults.
 
Pote said:
I like the idealistic idea that honesty is the best policy, but I agree with Harshaw that the world in general does (and should) not operate like that. It works on the level of the nuclear family very well, I'm sure, but when it comes to large-scale politics, I want my politicians to be able to lie. I'd much rather have two powerful world leaders pretend to like each other than have a war(or more cause for one) because of petty insults.
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Well, see there you just explain the problem with society... honesty doesn't have to be petty or insulting, but because we're constantly told that it is, it is reacted to as though it is.

I know that I've had problems with "friends" because I see and will comment upon when appropriate in my opinion about their flaws. My response is, "isn't a bigger compliment and show truer friendship that I see you for who you really are and still really like you than it would be if I pretended you were perfect?" Again, apparently not, we're all supposed to pretend every one is all wonderful all the time.

I don't see any reason diplomats need to lie. Perhaps some semblance of Thumper's Rule in just not saying negative things, but to actually lie. Besides when everyone knows everyone else is lying, how can any perceived solutions or agreements be trusted.

Again, I realize I'm idealistic for our currently insecure and ridiculously PC society, but that's me.
 
Summerwind said:
Well, see there you just explain the problem with society... honesty doesn't have to be petty or insulting, but because we're constantly told that it is, it is reacted to as though it is.
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Sorry, I meant to make the distinction that my hypothetical was a hypothetical and not always necessarily the case. I don't mean to argue that honesty has to be petty or insulting, but that it sometimes is, and that there could be major problems caused by honest rudeness between very powerful and petty people. (I'm not saying that all powerful people are petty either, only that there are some)

Summerwind said:
I don't see any reason diplomats need to lie. Perhaps some semblance of Thumper's Rule in just not saying negative things, but to actually lie. Besides when everyone knows everyone else is lying, how can any perceived solutions or agreements be trusted.
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You seriously can't think of a single reason why diplomats would need to lie? In the case of Thumper's Rule, if posed with a question that only has a negative truthful response and a positive deceitful response, a diplomat is supposed to...not say anything?

To state that everyone knows everyone else is lying is ridiculous, but if it were the case, it would be a very simple matter to find the truth.
Instead, everyone knows that everyone else has the capability to lie, and perceived solutions and agreements are made based on trust, as has been done throughout history. Sometimes it backfires, but sometimes it doesn't. That's how the world works.
 
Pote said:
Sorry, I meant to make the distinction that my hypothetical was a hypothetical and not always necessarily the case. I don't mean to argue that honesty has to be petty or insulting, but that it sometimes is, and that there could be major problems caused by honest rudeness between very powerful and petty people. (I'm not saying that all powerful people are petty either, only that there are some)


You seriously can't think of a single reason why diplomats would need to lie? In the case of Thumper's Rule, if posed with a question that only has a negative truthful response and a positive deceitful response, a diplomat is supposed to...not say anything?

To state that everyone knows everyone else is lying is ridiculous, but if it were the case, it would be a very simple matter to find the truth.
Instead, everyone knows that everyone else has the capability to lie, and perceived solutions and agreements are made based on trust, as has been done throughout history. Sometimes it backfires, but sometimes it doesn't. That's how the world works.
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First and most importantly, there's no need to be sorry.

No, I can't think of any reason for a lie. In the example you supply, simply respond honestly by saying one doesn't choose to answer. But you seem to imply lying is only when something is asked, if Wikileaks is showing us nothing else, it's that the lies are freeflowing, mostly to elected officials' constituencies, and have nothing to do with answering questions and everything to do with German Nazi style propaganda tactics to get or to maintain the support of those that are being lied to.

Again, I have to say that lying in this society is unavoidable for most, and perhaps foolish for most. But if our society was one based on honesty then the problems you perceive with telling the truth wouldn't exist. We would all be conditioned to accept and embrace that. Instead we play a bunch of stupid PC games that then lead into outright lies. I mean for crying out loud, look at the season we are about to celebrate. SANTA, really? As a society aren't we mature enough yet to quit lying to our kids about imaginary figures. By the time most kids hit their teens, they've learned that the parents who insist on the truth, have lied about Santa, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, and by the time they're in their 20-30s they learn their parent also lied about how "good" they (parents) were as children, with most parents claiming to their kids that they never did anything wrong.

Our society lives on lies, it's disgusting, imo.
 
Summerwind said:
No, I can't think of any reason for a lie. In the example you supply, simply respond honestly by saying one doesn't choose to answer.
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You don't think that saying "I don't want to answer that question" answers the question?
To use the example you've been using, if your friend asks you if they look good or bad in whatever piece of clothing, and you answer, "I don't want to answer", don't you think your friend can understand that you think they look bad?


Summerwind said:
But you seem to imply lying is only when something is asked, if Wikileaks is showing us nothing else, it's that the lies are freeflowing, mostly to elected officials' constituencies, and have nothing to do with answering questions and everything to do with German Nazi style propaganda tactics to get or to maintain the support of those that are being lied to.
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I would expand my argument to include freeflowing lies as a necessary evil. If a president needs to lie to get into office and actually help society, I think that lie is justified based on the outcome.

Summerwind said:
Again, I have to say that lying in this society is unavoidable for most, and perhaps foolish for most. But if our society was one based on honesty then the problems you perceive with telling the truth wouldn't exist. We would all be conditioned to accept and embrace that. Instead we play a bunch of stupid PC games that then lead into outright lies. I mean for crying out loud, look at the season we are about to celebrate. SANTA, really? As a society aren't we mature enough yet to quit lying to our kids about imaginary figures. By the time most kids hit their teens, they've learned that the parents who insist on the truth, have lied about Santa, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, and by the time they're in their 20-30s they learn their parent also lied about how "good" they (parents) were as children, with most parents claiming to their kids that they never did anything wrong.

Our society lives on lies, it's disgusting, imo.
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You really don't support any type of deception at all?
 
No, I really don't support any type of deception at all..... Okay there is one type that is short lived, surprise parties, I suppose one could say there's deception in that and I have willingly and would again do that.

As for the first concern about knowing that there is a negative response to a question even if one chooses not to answer... I don't see why anyone should be protected from knowing that some answers are negative. I do not hold to this stupid idea that all kids should hear is positive feedback, and I don't think adults should be treated like over-sensitive children.
 
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So do you also have a problem with advertisements with false implications?
Also, why do you draw the line between Santa and surprise parties? It seems like both of them have pretty similar goals, and the way that they go about reaching those goals are also pretty similar, is your only problem that the Santa example is over and extended period of time?

Edit: I'm arguing that lies are acceptable based on the outcome, or that the ends justify the means.
 
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Pote said:
So do you also have a problem with advertisements with false implications?
Also, why do you draw the line between Santa and surprise parties? It seems like both of them have pretty similar goals, and the way that they go about reaching those goals are also pretty similar, is your only problem that the Santa example is over and extended period of time?
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Oh, ads drive me nuts. My kids are very well informed about the tricks and sleights of hand regarding advertising because knowing that they were being sucked in, I would sit there and comment during commercials. Commercials says, "There are none better!" I say, "yeah, but there are probably none worse either." and so on. Another one I loved was, "9 out of 10 dentists prefer Oral B." "Yeah, that's because you give them free toothbrushes to give your patients, duh."

No, a surprise party is generally simply not spoken about until on the way to the party. So we're talking 15-30 minutes, and there's no belief in a mythical being required. The deception is simply that the event is less than what's actually occurring, not some blown up over-hyped bs.
 
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You kids can be very well informed about the tricks, but there's no way they can recognize every single sleight of hand. There are some of these tricks that you even fall for, on an unconscious or subconscious level.

I don't think the time should matter at all, a lie is a lie is a lie, no matter how long the lie is in effect, it's still a deception. I think the only thing that should be taken into account is the possible outcome, not some moral compass.

edit:bolded instead of posting in all caps
 
Pote said:
You kids can be very well informed about the tricks, but there's no way they can recognize every single sleight of hand. There are some of these tricks that you even fall for, on an unconscious or subconscious level.

I don't think the time should matter at all, a lie is a lie is a lie, no matter how long the lie is in effect, it's still a deception. I think the only thing that should be taken into account is the possible outcome, not some moral compass.

edit:bolded instead of posting in all caps
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I don't get caught by any advertising sleights, not a chance, but I'm not a shopper to start with, so I suppose that helps.

I did admit that the surprise party is a deception. I had to sit here and think for quite a little while to even come up with that, knowing that there must be something that was an exception to my rule. Additionally if you read upthread, you'd find that in the business world, I play the game and do it quite well. I don't like to have to be in that position, but given the realities, better to play well than to be squashed as I was in my early working days for same said honesty.
 
Summerwind said:
I don't get caught by any advertising sleights, not a chance, but I'm not a shopper to start with, so I suppose that helps.

I did admit that the surprise party is a deception. I had to sit here and think for quite a little while to even come up with that, knowing that there must be something that was an exception to my rule. Additionally if you read upthread, you'd find that in the business world, I play the game and do it quite well. I don't like to have to be in that position, but given the realities, better to play well than to be squashed as I was in my early working days for same said honesty.
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Have you ever bought anything that you have also seen a commercial of? If so, you probably were caught by an advertising sleight, no matter how slight it was. I suppose it's basically irrelevant though.

So then you accept that the outcome trumps your moral ideals in important cases?

Edit: I mean, it's better to lie in the business world and put food on the table than cling to your morals and starve, right?
 
Pote said:
Have you ever bought anything that you have also seen a commercial of? If so, you probably were caught by an advertising sleight, no matter how slight it was. I suppose it's basically irrelevant though.

So then you accept that the outcome trumps your moral ideals in important cases?

Edit: I mean, it's better to lie in the business world and put food on the table than cling to your morals and starve, right?
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Clearly, but I've said that from the beginning, perhaps you missed it. RE: In the society as it is, I have no choice but to learn and play the lying game.

Not getting hooked by the sleights in advertising doesn't mean I don't buy a product, it means I don't buy it based on a commercial. There are some sleights that are so bad that I refuse to buy their products, there are some that are just annoying, and there are some that are subtle, like simply changing the audio like they do when reading off the side effects of pharmas. Do you notice that one? Whenever the side effects are being announced, the music becomes hypnotic and the voice as well so you'll sort of ignore it, then when done, the lively happy music starts back up. It's so hysterical, if the music wasn't there and the voice was the same throughout, it would be "and may cause death. Ask your doctor right away if blah-blah is right for you to cure what ails you."
 
Summerwind said:
Clearly, but I've said that from the beginning, perhaps you missed it. RE: In the society as it is, I have no choice but to learn and play the lying game.

Not getting hooked by the sleights in advertising doesn't mean I don't buy a product, it means I don't buy it based on a commercial. There are some sleights that are so bad that I refuse to buy their products, there are some that are just annoying, and there are some that are subtle, like simply changing the audio like they do when reading off the side effects of pharmas. Do you notice that one? Whenever the side effects are being announced, the music becomes hypnotic and the voice as well so you'll sort of ignore it, then when done, the lively happy music starts back up. It's so hysterical, if the music wasn't there and the voice was the same throughout, it would be "and may cause death. Ask your doctor right away if blah-blah is right for you to cure what ails you."
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So then I guess we agree. The business world to you is the political world to the political leaders, and in some cases their lies are as justified as your lies in the business world.

Most sleights that you can point out I have probably noticed. However, I was talking about the tricks that are so subtle that you don't recognize them, and these are much more likely to contribute to you buying a product, or at least justify your purchase after the fact. Still, that's basically irrelevant to the OP.
 
Pote said:
So then I guess we agree. The business world to you is the political world to the political leaders, and in some cases their lies are as justified as your lies in the business world.

Most sleights that you can point out I have probably noticed. However, I was talking about the tricks that are so subtle that you don't recognize them, and these are much more likely to contribute to you buying a product, or at least justify your purchase after the fact. Still, that's basically irrelevant to the OP.
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No they are never justified, just necessary in the current social climate. Justified means to me that if I was in front of a judge and/or jury, I would claim innocence, ie justified. I would not do that, I would claim guilty. Guilty means it's not justified, imo. Necessary, but never justifiable. The only reason I do it is for personal gain, which again indicates to me a lack of justification. If personal gain is the ONLY reason for something, it's selfish and disgusting. So I admit to being selfish and disgusting in the business world, though I would strongly prefer not to be in that position and to live in a society that was mature enough to handle the truth.
 
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