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Do You Feel Comfortable Supporting Large Businesses?

bluesmoke said:
“My God. It's simple supply and demand. When you increase the supply of low skilled labor, the price point for low skill labor stays stagnant, at minimum wage.”

The “Lord God of Planar” maybe.

You’re just arguing theory. No evidence. No data. I might come back and say that without immigration, there would not be enough labor, skilled or not, to provide workers to fill any jobs that would otherwise be created and thus no economic growth for lack of workers to fill jobs created therefrom and the economy stagnates and then where would we be? I can support that with data. If somebody makes a claim, it has to be supported by evidence, not theory. Go ahead and state your theory as explanation of the evidence, but still you must provide the evidence or the claim, by debate standards, is dismissed as unfounded and that point of debate is lost.
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Please remember, I specify "illegal" immigration as bad. Legal immigration is healthy for us.

Please take your blinders off.
 
RAMOSS said:
Automation is reducing the available jobs anyway.
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which is another excellent reason we should limit immigration to only those who come into the country legally, because automation is going to overtake major sectors of the workforce in the somewhat near future.
 
phattonez said:
Tell me, does it bother you that every single one of the issues you defend is also the positions that large businesses proudly proclaim? I think about this especially when it comes to immigration.
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You've named one issue. That does not come close to every single issue.

phattonez said:
Doesn't it feel kind of funny, especially since immigration hurts the poor Americans most?
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False. Immigration hurts no one. In fact, it is actually small businesses and average Americans that benefit the most. A large factory farm can afford all kinds of machinery. It is small farmers need the labor the most. Large Construction companies generally hire full union labor. It's smaller contractors like roofers and landscaping companies that need the cheaper labor. McDonald's, Subway and Walmart aren't hiring a ton of undocumented immigrants it's a little mom and pop store or restaurant that needs them to fill in hours when school is in session.

phattonez said:
How do you deal with this fact?
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Contrary to popular belief liberals like myself do not hate big business and do not consider them to be inherently evil for any reason. We simply understand that businesses need to be regulated because fierce competition can make it incredibly tempting to cheat. So long as you know your competition could potentially be cutting a corner to save money businesses often find themselves being required to.

Rules and regulations just like in a professional sport are there for the protection and benefit of the players which in an Economy that includes Businesses. Believe it or not many businesses actually want regulation so that they can have their profit without having to sell their soul.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Please spefcify my ignorance.

I do have a supply and demand argument. Maybe it's not simple enough for some to understand. What are you saying I'm wrong about? What do I need to elaborate?
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Ok; You have a supply and demand argument that is impacted by "moving the goal posts", as Government must do, occasionally. Monopsony until until you reach fifteen dollars an hour, even for the most basic labor.
 
Nickyjo said:
If businesses loudly proclaim their commitment to non-discrimination, equal pay, enviornmental legislation, gay rights, etc., I thank them for joining us. No problem dealing with it.
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Even though you hold them responsible for driving down wages? Do you think that business are promoting these policies because it will make laborers better off, or themselves? Why do you think that they want these policies?
 
danielpalos said:
The immigration issue, is simply immoral as practiced by the right wing. Any Lord or Dey can hate and consider an abomination, sowing discord among brethren instead of comimg up with better solutions at lower cost.

We should have no illegal problems; this federal issue should be resolved at the federal borders with the federal powers already delegated by the People, in our federal Constitution.

Applied Capitalism can make this happen. The right wing doesn't like simply Because, there is not enough socialism on a national basis in it, for them.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal ID, to transact with our federal Judiciary. A fee or fine, can make that happen. That is how simple it could be to solve our illegal problem on a permanent basis via Capitalism. Anyone not applying for citizenship is a Tourist.
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In other words, you support exactly the policy that the Koch Brothers want. Aren't you at least a little unnerved by that?
 
bluesmoke said:
“My God. It's simple supply and demand. When you increase the supply of low skilled labor, the price point for low skill labor stays stagnant, at minimum wage.”

The “Lord God of Planar” maybe.

You’re just arguing theory. No evidence. No data. I might come back and say that without immigration, there would not be enough labor, skilled or not, to provide workers to fill any jobs that would otherwise be created and thus no economic growth for lack of workers to fill jobs created therefrom and the economy stagnates and then where would we be? I can support that with data. If somebody makes a claim, it has to be supported by evidence, not theory. Go ahead and state your theory as explanation of the evidence, but still you must provide the evidence or the claim, by debate standards, is dismissed as unfounded and that point of debate is lost.
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You can't support that. We still have record numbers of Americans out of work.

fredgraph.png
 
bluesmoke said:
There is not citation whatsoever in this article. He gives no sources for his “data.” None. No citations from SS, Immigration and Naturalization, BLS. Nada. Zip, zero, zilch. Just “I’ve been studying immigration for 30 years.” We’re supposed to take his word for it. I can understand why you didn’t provide this “evidence” before. The “data” cannot be verified. No recognized sources. Your claim “immigration hurts the poor Americans most?” does not have the verifiable evidence of support and is thus dismissed as unfounded. That pretty much refutes your entire OP.
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Do you want a scientific paper? How's this?

Immigration and African-American Employment Opportunities: The Response of Wages, Employment, and Incarceration to Labor Supply Shocks

NBER said:
The employment rate of black men, and particularly of low-skill black men, fell precipitously from 1960 to 2000. At the same time, the incarceration rate of black men rose markedly. This paper examines the relation between immigration and these trends in black employment and incarceration. Using data drawn from the 1960-2000 U.S. Censuses, we find a strong correlation between immigration, black wages, black employment rates, and black incarceration rates. As immigrants disproportionately increased the supply of workers in a particular skill group, the wage of black workers in that group fell, the employment rate declined, and the incarceration rate rose. Our analysis suggests that a 10-percent immigrant-induced increase in the supply of a particular skill group reduced the black wage by 4.0 percent, lowered the employment rate of black men by 3.5 percentage points, and increased the incarceration rate of blacks by almost a full percentage point.
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Lord of Planar said:
Please remember, I specify "illegal" immigration as bad. Legal immigration is healthy for us.
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Not when we still have record numbers of Americans out of work, stagnant real family wages, and exorbitant housing costs.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Please remember, I specify "illegal" immigration as bad. Legal immigration is healthy for us.

Please take your blinders off.
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You didn’t specify “illegal” immigration in your post to me:

“My God. It's simple supply and demand. When you increase the supply of low skilled labor, the price point for low skill labor stays stagnant, at minimum wage.”

My post to which you replied made no mention of illegal immigration nor did the post to which mine replied.

So, I can’t remember what you didn’t say. Please put your glasses on.

If you want to parse-out that illegal immigration is bad, I assume you mean for low-skilled workers. Still, as I’ve already said, you’d have to show evidence of such. Data and sources. Citation. Otherwise, you’re just talking and not backing-up your own words.
 
phattonez said:
Not when we still have record numbers of Americans out of work, stagnant real family wages, and exorbitant housing costs.
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Well, I'm not going to place that on the back of legal immigration. We have a pretty small number of legal immigrants. Our lack of jobs is due to more losses of employment opportunities, because of jobs being exported. Not population increases of legal citizens.
 
bluesmoke said:
You didn’t specify “illegal” immigration in your post to me:

“My God. It's simple supply and demand. When you increase the supply of low skilled labor, the price point for low skill labor stays stagnant, at minimum wage.”

My post to which you replied made no mention of illegal immigration nor did the post to which mine replied.

So, I can’t remember what you didn’t say. Please put your glasses on.

If you want to parse-out that illegal immigration is bad, I assume you mean for low-skilled workers. Still, as I’ve already said, you’d have to show evidence of such. Data and sources. Citation. Otherwise, you’re just talking and not backing-up your own words.
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Almost all illegal immigrants are low skilled. Most legal immigrants have skills. Take that as you like, but I shouldn't have to specify every nit picked detail, especially if you have had debate with me before on immigration, you know my stand on legal vs. illegal immigration. We have the H1B visa system to bring in skilled workers we lack here, though of late, that system is abused and needs re-tuned.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Well, I'm not going to place that on the back of legal immigration. We have a pretty small number of legal immigrants. Our lack of jobs is due to more losses of employment opportunities, because of jobs being exported. Not population increases of legal citizens.
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We get 1,000,000 legal immigrants every year. We add a little more than 2,000,000 new jobs every year. That's not small.
 
phattonez said:
Do you want a scientific paper? How's this?

Immigration and African-American Employment Opportunities: The Response of Wages, Employment, and Incarceration to Labor Supply Shocks
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It is not about immigration or entry into the Union; it is about lousy public policies.

It is about Equal protection of the law. Employment is at-will in our at-will employment States. The poor should have recourse to a basic income through unemployment compensation (for capitalism's natural rate of unemployment); the physical and legal infrastructure is already in place; this is one of the simplest measure we can take, to balance our economy and generate a positive multiplier effect-since, grow our economy, we must.
 
danielpalos said:
I resort to the fewest fallacies. Thanks for not finding any errors in my reasoning. And thanks for your support of our agenda.
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Do you think that the Koch Brothers support the policy out of the goodness of their hearts? What's in it for them?
 
danielpalos said:
any good capitalist can invest in a growing economy; the bonus is the added stability and increase in capital demand.
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How do they get added stability? How is there an increase in capital demand?
 
phattonez said:
How do they get added stability? How is there an increase in capital demand?
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solving simple poverty means even blacks won't be impacted by cheap labor; especially when that labor is not fully compliant, with our first world concerns.

Being able to be more market friendly, means less need for violence, under our form of Capitalism.
 
danielpalos said:
solving simple poverty means even blacks won't be impacted by cheap labor; especially when that labor is not fully compliant, with our first world concerns.

Being able to be more market friendly, means less need for violence, under our form of Capitalism.
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How does immigration help solve poverty?

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phattonez said:
How does immigration help solve poverty?

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk
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It doesn't, by itself; it does help grow our economy.

Unemployment compensation simply for being unemployed and a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage, solves Labor's problem.
 
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