Do you believe in objective morality?

[Jacksprat]

Then I fail to see the connection between justifying a legal claim to self defense and a moral claim to self defense.

I must not be getting your position. Are you saying you believe it is always immoral to kill someone in self defense?

 

[soylentgreen]

I must not be getting your position. Are you saying you believe it is always immoral to kill someone in self defense?

No, I am saying that it is dependent on a subjective view of the morality of harming others. Which in turn is dependent on the persons own levels of altruism and empathy rather than an objective ethical stance or personal moral choice.

 

[Jacksprat]

No, I am saying that it is dependent on a subjective view of the morality of harming others.

I just do not know what "subjective view of the morality" means.

 

[CLAX1911]

Who gets to define "needless harm"?

It's pretty easily defined. Typically know if something needs to happen even if you get harmed in the process.

 

[soylentgreen]

I just do not know what "subjective view of the morality" means.

Why not? It is a fairly simple concept.

 

[Jacksprat]

Why not? It is a fairly simple concept.

Which you cannot explain.

 

[soylentgreen]

Which you cannot explain.

How so? Morality is subjective simply because moral decisions are decisions a person makes for themselves.

 

[Jacksprat]

How so? Morality is subjective simply because moral decisions are decisions a person makes for themselves.

That is not what "subjective" means.

 

[Luce]

No.

Okay, say Jack doesn't fix his brakes. He then runs over a dozen orphans, because the car wouldn't stop. Jack is guilty of 12 counts of manslaughter.

Now let's say Jack doesn't fix his brakes, but this somehow gets caught by a law enforcement agency before he manages to run people over. Do we charge him with attempted murder? Of course not.

The predicate acts are the same. The only difference is luck.

 

[soylentgreen]

That is not what "subjective" means.

Actually subjective does mean taking a personal view of something.

 

[Jacksprat]

Actually subjective does mean taking a personal view of something.

If someone takes a drink of water, is that subjective?

 

[soylentgreen]

If someone takes a drink of water, is that subjective?

No that would quenching a thirst.
If someone preferred bottled water to tap water that would be subjective

 

[Jacksprat]

No that would quenching a thirst.
If someone preferred bottled water to tap water that would be subjective

So any act by a person is subjective. That is not a conventional idea of subjectivity.

 

[soylentgreen]

So any act by a person is subjective. That is not a conventional idea of subjectivity.

Did I not just say the act of drinking water is not in itself subjective.?

 

[Jacksprat]

Did I not just say the act of drinking water is not in itself subjective.?

Don't agree. Someone can drink water and not be thirsty.

 

[soylentgreen]

Don't agree. Someone can drink water and not be thirsty.

True, but does not change the fact that you are making an objective view point here. Either the person is drinking water or they are not. It is not a debatable choice.

However their choice on what type of water or even if they are thirsty or not is a subjective choice on their part.

 

[Jacksprat]

True, but does not change the fact that you are making an objective view point here. Either the person is drinking water or they are not. It is not a debatable choice.

However their choice on what type of water or even if they are thirsty or not is a subjective choice on their part.

By your definition, taking a drink of water is subjective.

 

[soylentgreen]

By your definition, taking a drink of water is subjective.

I fail to see how. The reason for drinking can be subjective choice or drinking water can be seen as an objective action. Your sure you are not confusing the two?

 

[Jacksprat]

I fail to see how. The reason for drinking can be subjective choice or drinking water can be seen as an objective action. Your sure you are not confusing the two?

By your definition, if I see someone drinking water it is that person's subjectivity being exhibited.

 

[soylentgreen]

By your definition, if I see someone drinking water it is that person's subjectivity being exhibited.

If your considering why he is drinking then it may very well be for a subjective reason. So I am not quite sure what point you think you made here.

 

[Jacksprat]

If your considering why he is drinking then it may very well be for a subjective reason. So I am not quite sure what point you think you made here.

My point is your concept of subjectivity is incoherent.

 

[soylentgreen]

My point is your concept of subjectivity is incoherent.

Because you confuse the action of drinking water with that of a reason to drink water?

 

[Jacksprat]

Because you confuse the action of drinking water with that of a reason to drink water?

I told you. You don't get forced to drink water, you CHOOSE to drink water. By your definition, this is subjective.

 

[soylentgreen]

I told you. You don't get forced to drink water, you CHOOSE to drink water. By your definition, this is subjective.

True, and if we are just commenting about drinking water then that is objective, either he is or he is not drinking water.

But if we are guessing as to why he is drinking water or even ask why then the answer could be entirely subjective desire or the fact that they were dehydrated which can be tested to see if it is an objective reason or simply a subjective whim.

 

[Jacksprat]

True, and if we are just commenting about drinking water then that is objective, either he is or he is not drinking water.

But if we are guessing as to why he is drinking water or even ask why then the answer could be entirely subjective desire or the fact that they were dehydrated which can be tested to see if it is an objective reason or simply a subjective whim.

Why would someone drink water for no reason?