• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Did anyone see this on the news?

M14 Shooter

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
2,622
Reaction score
68
Location
Toledo-ish OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I didnt. I'm not surpised. Are you?

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/iraq/articles/20060112.aspx

The principal leader of the Sunni insurgents in Al Anbar Province, has reportedly been holding meetings with representatives of the government. The meetings – at least two of which are said to have occurred – include representatives of tribal, clan, and political groups that have been supporting the resistance in he province. Apparently, the objective of the meetings is to “normalize” the situation in Al Anbar, turning the resistance into a political movement. Al Anbar has long been Iraq's "wild west," and dominated by Sunni Arab tribes. Even Saddam never had complete control of the al Anbar tribes, and after the 1991 war, tried to buy the loyalty of the al Anbar tribal chiefs. But now the masters of al Anbar are fearful of the non-Sunni Arab government in Baghdad. The Americans are bad enough, but these Shia Arab and Kurd policemen and soldiers are really out for blood. Time to make peace.

While the military situation in the province is believed to be increasingly favorable to the government, there are other reasons for this development. Reportedly some tribal leaders have become concerned with the increasing influence Al Qaeda-in-Iraq has in the province, not to mention the Islamist movement’s targeting of civilians. In addition, Al Qaeda appears to be waging its own war against some of the more secular resistance movements; it is believed that at least one prominent Sunni resistance leader was killed by Al Qaeda.

The Sunni Arabs in Iraq are becoming truly terrified. First, there is the increasing physical threat. The terrorists continue to attack Shia Iraqi civilians, and the media images of dead children and blood splattered mosques increase the anger against all Sunni Arab Iraqis. That, plus the decades of Saddam’s rule, where Sunni Arab secret police and street thugs killed with impunity, has increased the enthusiasm among Shia and Kurds for massive retaliation. What retrains the 80 percent of the population that are Shia and Kurds are the clergy, politicians and general distaste for such a massive blood letting. The Kurds are more concerned with consolidating their position in northern Iraq, especially pushing Sunni Arabs out of the northern oil fields.
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
FinnMacCool said:
Because nothings going to come from it.
You wish............It would just break your little old liberal heart if something happened good in Iraq wouldn't it.............Its going to really torque your jaw tight when we have a blooming democratic government there..........

Stay tuned..........
 

Simon W. Moon

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Messages
22,807
Reaction score
8,096
Location
Fayettenam
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I saw several articles along these lines @ antiwar.com.
 

Middleground

Dam Epidamic
Bartender
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
26,065
Reaction score
12,020
Location
Canada's Capital
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
Simon W. Moon said:
I saw several articles along these lines @ antiwar.com.
Ah, no wonder Navy Pride didn't see it. ;)
 

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
FinnMacCool said:
Because nothings going to come from it.
You mean that you can't end generations of violence and hatred with a forced democracy?
 

libertarian_knight

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
997
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The Admin, military and Iraq government have been engaged in meetings for quite some time now, with opposition and "terrorists."

Bush flip-flopped on "with us or against us," and this is a good thing.
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
scottyz said:
You mean that you can't end generations of violence and hatred with a forced democracy?
I wonder how much of a forced democracy it is when you see people risking their lives to vote.................

Maybe we live in a forced democracy here in the U.S. because we can't get over 50 percent of the people to vote in this country and they are under no threat...........

I wonder which one is forced?:confused:
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
libertarian_knight said:
The Admin, military and Iraq government have been engaged in meetings for quite some time now, with opposition and "terrorists."

Bush flip-flopped on "with us or against us," and this is a good thing.
Sometimes things don't always go the way you plan in a war my friend........I don't think FDR planned to lose 6,000 men on the landings at Omaha Beach in WW2 but it happened and we did not hold him responsible for that.........
 

libertarian_knight

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
997
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Navy Pride said:
Sometimes things don't always go the way you plan in a war my friend........I don't think FDR planned to lose 6,000 men on the landings at Omaha Beach in WW2 but it happened and we did not hold him responsible for that.........
Things not going as planned is not my problem. I think negotiating with some of these groups is far more beneficial than prolonged conflict.

But planning on no negotiations under a "with us or against us" mentality, is just a plain bad plan, and a stupid thing to have said, as borne out by the administration having conducted negotiations.

It not only evidences poor planning, but also requires the appearance of a position change, often viewed as "a sign of weakness."
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
libertarian_knight said:
Things not going as planned is not my problem. I think negotiating with some of these groups is far more beneficial than prolonged conflict.

But planning on no negotiations under a "with us or against us" mentality, is just a plain bad plan, and a stupid thing to have said, as borne out by the administration having conducted negotiations.

It not only evidences poor planning, but also requires the appearance of a position change, often viewed as "a sign of weakness."

It may not be your problem personally but it is a fact..........

And most people I know that are veterans or in the Military feel that you are with us or against us enforce our will to take the war to the scum that knocked down those towers on 9/11/01.........You see some of us don't believe that the war on terror should be handled as a police action or handled in a sensitive way as most of our friends on the left do.......
 

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
Navy Pride said:
I wonder how much of a forced democracy it is when you see people risking their lives to vote.................
Let's see.. they want us out of their country and they want to eat. If they don't vote they don't get food rations and we stick around longer. What would you do?
 

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
Navy Pride said:
It may not be your problem personally but it is a fact..........

And most people I know that are veterans or in the Military feel that you are with us or against us enforce our will to take the war to the scum that knocked down those towers on 9/11/01.........You see some of us don't believe that the war on terror should be handled as a police action or handled in a sensitive way as most of our friends on the left do.......
How many of those scumbags were Iraqi or funded by Iraq?
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
scottyz said:
Let's see.. they want us out of their country and they want to eat. If they don't vote they don't get food rations and we stick around longer. What would you do?
Of course they want us out of their country and we want out to but not until the mission is complete and the Iraqis can handle their own security....What part of that is so hard to understand?
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
scottyz said:
How many of those scumbags were Iraqi or funded by Iraq?
You tell me but I can tell you one thing unlike your hero "Slick Willie" who did nothing to stop terrorism and refused Bin Laden on a silver platter this president will not wait until Saddam got a Nuke and used it himself or gave it to another terroist organization to use it here and kill millions.....

Thank you President Bush.........
 

Cremaster77

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
962
Reaction score
199
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Navy Pride said:
You wish............It would just break your little old liberal heart if something happened good in Iraq wouldn't it.............Its going to really torque your jaw tight when we have a blooming democratic government there..........

Stay tuned..........
Do you ever get tired of listening to Sean Hannity and then writing down verbatem his hackneyed spin? Why is it that when someone wants things to go well in Iraq, understands that we've dug ourselves into a hole by going there, sees things are going poorly, and blames the Bush administration for starting a war they had no idea how to finish, that they are constantly accused of wanting Iraq to fail?

It's a fact that the Bush administration grossly miscalculated the response we would get from Iraqis for invading Iraq. It's a fact that the Bush administration grossly underestimated the cost of the war and the time it would take to stabilize the country. It's a fact that the Bush administration grossly overestimated the amount that Iraqis would be able to fund their own goverment.

Now, if I point these out, I hate America and want Iraq to become even more of a failure?
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Cremaster77 said:
Do you ever get tired of listening to Sean Hannity and then writing down verbatem his hackneyed spin? Why is it that when someone wants things to go well in Iraq, understands that we've dug ourselves into a hole by going there, sees things are going poorly, and blames the Bush administration for starting a war they had no idea how to finish, that they are constantly accused of wanting Iraq to fail?

It's a fact that the Bush administration grossly miscalculated the response we would get from Iraqis for invading Iraq. It's a fact that the Bush administration grossly underestimated the cost of the war and the time it would take to stabilize the country. It's a fact that the Bush administration grossly overestimated the amount that Iraqis would be able to fund their own goverment.

Now, if I point these out, I hate America and want Iraq to become even more of a failure?
I have to admit you have the Howard Dean left wing talking points down pat........Did you even take the time to read the article? It will really depress you..............

As I have said many times when you are in a war things don't always go as planned.........They did not in WW2, Korea, or Vietnam all wars started by democratic presidents where instead of 3,000 dead there were millions of deaths.......Get over it...........
 

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
Cremaster77 said:
Do you ever get tired of listening to Sean Hannity and then writing down verbatem his hackneyed spin? Why is it that when someone wants things to go well in Iraq, understands that we've dug ourselves into a hole by going there, sees things are going poorly, and blames the Bush administration for starting a war they had no idea how to finish, that they are constantly accused of wanting Iraq to fail?

It's a fact that the Bush administration grossly miscalculated the response we would get from Iraqis for invading Iraq. It's a fact that the Bush administration grossly underestimated the cost of the war and the time it would take to stabilize the country. It's a fact that the Bush administration grossly overestimated the amount that Iraqis would be able to fund their own goverment.

Now, if I point these out, I hate America and want Iraq to become even more of a failure?
One of the things that makes this country great is our freedom of speech and our freedom to disagree with each other and debate these issues. However, it is irresponsible to use these freedoms to question President Bush or his motives.
 
H

hipsterdufus

scottyz said:
One of the things that makes this country great is our freedom of speech and our freedom to disagree with each other and debate these issues. However, it is irresponsible to use these freedoms to question President Bush or his motives.
Enjoy it while it lasts. Scalito is coming...

You sound just like Britanny Spears - "Everything the president says is great."
Thomas Jefferson would disagree with you and Brittany.
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
scottyz said:
One of the things that makes this country great is our freedom of speech and our freedom to disagree with each other and debate these issues. However, it is irresponsible to use these freedoms to question President Bush or his motives.
I couldn't agree more.....You can bitch all you want about how things are going in Iraq, just don't come back in the next sentence and say you support the troops and their mission because you see the vast majority of those young brave people disagree with you....They say they are making progress there and are winning the war, its just not printed or told by your friends in the left wing media............
 

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
hipsterdufus said:
Enjoy it while it lasts. Scalito is coming...

You sound just like Britanny Spears - "Everything the president says is great."
Thomas Jefferson would disagree with you and Brittany.
omigod!!!! britney spears is like my total fav who is tomas jefforson?
 

libertarian_knight

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
997
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Navy Pride said:
I have to admit you have the Howard Dean left wing talking points down pat........Did you even take the time to read the article? It will really depress you..............

As I have said many times when you are in a war things don't always go as planned.........They did not in WW2, Korea, or Vietnam all wars started by democratic presidents where instead of 3,000 dead there were millions of deaths.......Get over it...........
See there are plans doomed to failure, like: "I am gonna bang Angelina Jolie tonight." Because either part of the plan, or all of it, is unreasonable, or defies nature. Sometimes, when things don't "go according to plan," it's not because of any unforseen complications, it's because the plan itself was flawed. Of course, your planners will never tell you that, as it is a sign of their weakness, so they blame other things, other events, or other people.

The Plan is Sacred!

(BTW, they DO plan for how many troops/civilians/enemies would be killed in an operation. Don't pretend they don't.)
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
libertarian_knight said:
See there are plans doomed to failure, like: "I am gonna bang Angelina Jolie tonight." Because either part of the plan, or all of it, is unreasonable, or defies nature. Sometimes, when things don't "go according to plan," it's not because of any unforseen complications, it's because the plan itself was flawed. Of course, your planners will never tell you that, as it is a sign of their weakness, so they blame other things, other events, or other people.

The Plan is Sacred!

(BTW, they DO plan for how many troops/civilians/enemies would be killed in an operation. Don't pretend they don't.)
Did FDR plan for 6,000 dead in one day on the landings at Omaha Beach in WW2? Check it out you might learn something......
 

Cremaster77

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
962
Reaction score
199
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Navy Pride said:
I have to admit you have the Howard Dean left wing talking points down pat........Did you even take the time to read the article? It will really depress you..............

As I have said many times when you are in a war things don't always go as planned.........They did not in WW2, Korea, or Vietnam all wars started by democratic presidents where instead of 3,000 dead there were millions of deaths.......Get over it...........
So what in your opinion is the difference between being grossly mismanaged and just not going as planned? Does thinking that we would be greated as heros qualify as mismangement or just not going as planned? How about quoting an insurgency in it's last throes almost a year ago? How about thinking Iraqi oil would be paying for the war within 2 years? I'm curious, where do you draw the line?

Also, try reading the article last year from that liberal-rag, the New England Journal of Medicine where they analyze the number of deaths PLUS wounded and find that the reason for only 3,000 deaths this time around is due to improved medical care and body armor. The total number of casualties is on the same pace as Vietnam.

By the way, as a military man, I'm surprised you think the US had "millions of deaths" in WW2, Korean, and Vietnam. I guess since those wars were started by Democratic presidents we should multiple the death count by a factor of 50. How do you write this stuff with a straight face?
 
Top Bottom