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Demography & Radicalism; Martin Kramer

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An Alternative view.
Appealing to those of us who see overpopulation as a/The major problem for the planet.
Not the only cause by any means but.. take a listen.

His view, "Superfluous sons" (4th, 5th, 6th, 55th) is the Biggest catalyst for radicalization/Islamization.
People with Nothing to do.
1997-2007 Gaza population grew by 40%. (even while being "Genocided")
At current rates, the bottom/young group will Double in population by 2030.
What will 20 million more Yemenis, 28 million more Afghanis, 80 million more Pakistanis do?
A Tolerable 6 minutes.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaJXFbH4McM&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Martin Kramer on Radicalization, 2010 Herzliya Conf.[/ame]

Median age:

Germany... 44
UK........... 40
US .......... 37
Israel ....... 29
Turkey ..... 28
----
Iraq ......... 19
Afghanistan 17
Yemen ...... 17
Somalia ......17
Gaza ......... 17
 
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From the video:
“If the state can’t control these young men somebody else will. If society cannot offer dignified pursuits for the fourth, and fifth and sixth sons someone else will. And it’s not just the frustration of poverty. It’s just as much a shortage of status.”​
Eric Hoffer, though never mentioning anything about radical Islam, offered a similar view in his book True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements:
“Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life. Thus people haunted by the purposelessness of their lives try to find a new content not only by dedicating themselves to a holy cause but also by nursing a fanatical grievance. A mass movement offers them unlimited opportunities for both.”​
Now how relevant is THAT quote!
 
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He makes some pretty interesting points that make sense. I don't think that overpopulation is the only factor in extremist terrorism, but it certainly could be a major contributing factor.
 
He makes some pretty interesting points that make sense. I don't think that overpopulation is the only factor in extremist terrorism, but it certainly could be a major contributing factor.

But he didn't really seem to be speaking about overpopulation as much as a lack of opportunity. Opportunity or "dignified pursuits" that might occupy and provide a method of achieving some sort of status for the masses.

Mormons tend to have large families often times, but you don't see them strapping bombs to themselves and waging war in the name of their God.
 
But he didn't really seem to be speaking about overpopulation as much as a lack of opportunity. Opportunity or "dignified pursuits" that might occupy and provide a method of achieving some sort of status for the masses.

Mormons tend to have large families often times, but you don't see them strapping bombs to themselves and waging war in the name of their God.

That's true, it's not difficult to turn radical when the economy in your country is **** and you don't really have anything to lose. We actually see this all the time, even in the West, like how neo-Nazism is more popular in former East Germany than in the West.
 
That's true, it's not difficult to turn radical when the economy in your country is **** and you don't really have anything to lose. We actually see this all the time, even in the West, like how neo-Nazism is more popular in former East Germany than in the West.

Places like Gaza, are arguably Not viable even with it's current population, which is only being worsened, as the author says by 'Pro-Natal' policies of those supporting them
Double it and what do you have? Lotsa people in the sand with nothing to do, and no way in hell to get employed and fed.. except with Charity. More UNRWA underwriting of the problem.

Aside feel free to/do ignore for this string:
Which of course brings up another issue having nothing to with Gaza or the M-E.
What is my country, the USA doing?
Are we the Steam Valve for countries who can't keep it their pants? Who could never even employ and feed their current populations.
I say NO immigrants from countries who show no willingness/No measures to curb population they can't afford.
What the Hell is this?
If excess people are your biggest export. No thanks.
Think Condoms!
 
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Something is very conspicuous by its absence in his whole presentation. In fact, it is the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the room, yet he failed to even mention it. If rapid population expansion were the single biggest factor, then the Chinese and the Indians would be the most violent societies in the world today. However, they are not.

Nevertheless, you combine rapid population expansion with Islam and what Islam inculcates and you have a recipe for violent volatility and an endless supply of jihadis bent on the destruction of the non-Islamic world and the spread of Islam.

With respect to the role poverty plays in fomenting Islamic motivated violence, it doesn't. It's not poverty that leads the so-called Palestinian proxies to want to destroy Israel. It's the Islamic indoctrination and the constant and never ending incitement to violence cradle to grave that does it.

You can't have a discussion about the inherent violence that emanates from the Middle East and leave out and ignore totally the role that Islam plays. It's ludicrous!
 
Something is very conspicuous by its absence in his whole presentation. In fact, it is the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the room, yet he failed to even mention it. If rapid population expansion were the single biggest factor, then the Chinese and the Indians would be the most violent societies in the world today. However, they are not.

Nevertheless, you combine rapid population expansion with Islam and what Islam inculcates and you have a recipe for violent volatility and an endless supply of jihadis bent on the destruction of the non-Islamic world and the spread of Islam.

With respect to the role poverty plays in fomenting Islamic motivated violence, it doesn't. It's not poverty that leads the so-called Palestinian proxies to want to destroy Israel. It's the Islamic indoctrination and the constant and never ending incitement to violence cradle to grave that does it.

You can't have a discussion about the inherent violence that emanates from the Middle East and leave out and ignore totally the role that Islam plays. It's ludicrous!


It's no more ludicrous than you ignoring the role that poverty and lack of opportunities play in making these young men more susceptible to the extremist preachings of the terrorists.
 
India is violent

It has plenty of insurgencies, throughout the country, it is also quite oppressive culturally towards the lower castes. India also has the second largest population of muslims. They do not make up the most violent group in india (naxalites are the most dominate insurgent group)

China is also violent, but the government controls the population to a high degree, and is working double time to provide the opportunities to prevent the "idle hands" that Kramer was talking about

The Chinese government is deathly afraid of another revolution due to hundreds of millions of people with nothing to do
 
I think that single-cause explanations for mideast violence are all suspect. It is more than just any single factor.

Large families and "overpopulation" are not, of themselves, a cause for this level and type of violence/war/terrorism. Having more children than you can support, more than can find a decent living, may very well contribute as one salient factor.

There are many others. I don't really claim to be a mideast expert, yet I can think of several.

Cultural Insecurity: A sort of inferiority/superiority complex. The middle east was ahead of Europe in civilization and technology in the distant past; now it lags far behind the West. In the time of the Caliphate, they had ambitions to rule the world that were percieved as an actual possibility; now they are a backwater whose chief exports are oil and surplus population. Clearly some long for the days of their greatness, feel offended by the primacy of the West, and hear the siren-song of radicalism, of Islamofascism, as a solution.

Radical Islamism: emphasis on the "radical" part for a reason. I think the average Middle-easterner would prefer to just be left alone to live his life in peace. But the radicals are out there in substantial numbers, and they seek to make all Islam into Radical Islam. The leadership of groups like Al-Queda and suchlike are probably more about power and status than faith; you don't see Usama strapping on a bomb to martyr himself do you? But they use Islam as a means of recruitment, emphasizing its more radical aspect for their own purposes.

Crappy Governments: Much of the middle east labors under dictators, monarchs, or oligarchies, that gather the lion's share of prosperity and power to themselves in the classical pyramid: those at the top live well, everyone else scrabbles for their daily bread. A climate of injustice and oppression is a perfect breeding ground for extremism.

Put all these factors together and you have a perfect environment for groups like Al-Q and the Taliban, etc, to operate.
 
Something is very conspicuous by its absence in his whole presentation. In fact, it is the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the room, yet he failed to even mention it. If rapid population expansion were the single biggest factor, then the Chinese and the Indians would be the most violent societies in the world today. However, they are not.

Nevertheless, you combine rapid population expansion with Islam and what Islam inculcates and you have a recipe for violent volatility and an endless supply of jihadis bent on the destruction of the non-Islamic world and the spread of Islam.

With respect to the role poverty plays in fomenting Islamic motivated violence, it doesn't. It's not poverty that leads the so-called Palestinian proxies to want to destroy Israel. It's the Islamic indoctrination and the constant and never ending incitement to violence cradle to grave that does it.

You can't have a discussion about the inherent violence that emanates from the Middle East and leave out and ignore totally the role that Islam plays. It's ludicrous!
I agree with your criticism to some extent.
Islam/Islamism in Particular have a problem with violence. Crowd them in and what have you got.
But Muslims/Islam have violence problems even in Europe.

I disagree with others here that China has an inordinate problem relative to it's size.
Coincidentally, there are about the same amount of Chinese as there are Muslims.
Anyone care to compare the two in Violence/Wars/etc?
Daily Newspapers would suffice.
Not that China isn't repressive in many ways. (another topic)

China's 20 year boom though, IMO, was helped a great deal by their 'One Child policy' which Had/Has prevented the birth of perhaps a hundred million, or three hundred million, with nothing to do and no place to put or feed. Think of what that policy could do for Cairo, Karachi, or Gaza.
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Radical Islamism: emphasis on the "radical" part for a reason. I think the average Middle-easterner would prefer to just be left alone to live his life in peace. But the radicals are out there in substantial numbers, and they seek to make all Islam into Radical Islam. The leadership of groups like Al-Queda and suchlike are probably more about power and status than faith; you don't see Usama strapping on a bomb to martyr himself do you? But they use Islam as a means of recruitment, emphasizing its more radical aspect for their own purposes.

I agree, Islam is manipulated by a lot of different people for their own purposes. Not just with al-Qaida and other extremists, but by politicians throughout the Middle East. Your average Middle Easterner is caught in the middle of all the bull**** that's going around, and has to deal with all the **** even though it's not of his/her doing.
 
I think that single-cause explanations for mideast violence are all suspect. It is more than just any single factor.
I agree and presented it in line One as "An Alternative view".
I'm a good way into the 'Indoctrination' camp myself as the speaker acknowledges in the panels before him.

Goshin said:
Cultural Insecurity: A sort of inferiority/superiority complex. The middle east was ahead of Europe in civilization and technology in the distant past; now it lags far behind the West. In the time of the Caliphate, they had ambitions to rule the world that were percieved as an actual possibility; now they are a backwater whose chief exports are oil and surplus population. Clearly some long for the days of their greatness, feel offended by the primacy of the West, and hear the siren-song of radicalism, of Islamofascism, as a solution.
Yes, have espoused this myself many times.
Muslims, especially Arabs, "Turned on Their TV's" in the second half of the 20th C and were shocked to find out they were backwards. Cultural Humiliation may be one of the great contributors.
Goshin said:
Radical Islamism: emphasis on the "radical" part for a reason. I think the average Middle-easterner would prefer to just be left alone to live his life in peace. But the radicals are out there in substantial numbers, and they seek to make all Islam into Radical Islam...
I think the problem is Literal Islam, as I've said scores of times here.
Alas literal Islam is Mainstream/Majority among Muslims.
The problem is Not in any way just (what I consider the great strawman) '.001% Terrorists or al-Qaeda'. Please be gone the biggest Fallacy of all.
It IS the persecution by Muslim Countries of their minorities and Wars with their Neigbors. Killing and cleansing many, many, times what al-Qaeda does every singe day.
From North Africa to SE Asia. Lesser in the latter.

Irshad Manji

"... The trouble with Islam today is that Literalism is Mainstream.

Even Moderate Muslims take the Koran as the final word of God: unfiltered, unchanged and unchangeable.

This Supremacy Complex inhibits us from asking hard questions about what happens when faith becomes dogma.
Such a path can lead only to a dead end of More Violence...

The Australian: Irshad Manji: Denial is scourge of Islam [August 23, 2005]

'Radical' is a nebulous term to me.
'Literalist' is nailable.
"fundamentalist" is used to describe Christian Literalists, but people don't want to use it consistently and call the Majority of Muslims "Fundamentalists".. but that is the case.
And considering the Unfortunate text they are literal to (Wilders trial!), Muslims Necessarily would have a problem that Christian literalists don't.
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It's no more ludicrous than you ignoring the role that poverty and lack of opportunities play in making these young men more susceptible to the extremist preachings of the terrorists.

You are ignorantly and naively misapplying your Westernized view of the world to Muslims and making silly, stupid, and asinine assumptions that Muslims somehow desire and value the same things that we in the West do. It's past time for you to take off your rose colored glasses and study Islam and Islamic civilization, as poverty and despair has nothing whatsoever to do with the way Muslims act today. As a matter of fact, they hate and despise the materialism of the West and believe it is decadent!

Moreover, if poverty really were the root cause of all the violence as so many on the left insist, then why is it only Muslims in the world today waging jihad and committing Islamic motivated violence? What about all the other equally poverty stricken people in the world? Indeed, there absence is more than a little conspicuous if you remove the blinders and open up your eyes.
 
The middle east was ahead of Europe in civilization and technology in the distant past; now it lags far behind the West.

Not the Muslims, but the dhimmis or non-Muslim peoples conquered by the Muslims were often times more advanced. Nevertheless, as soon as the dhimmis were eventually converted to Islam via harsh dhimmitude, Islam resumed back into backwardness.

If you look at every period of enlightenment in the Islamic world, it happens as a direct result of new Islamic conquests. However, as soon as the majority of those non-Muslim dhimmis are eventually converted to Islam, that period of enlightenment subsides and Islamic civilization reverts back into the darkness and backwardness in every case.

In the time of the Caliphate, hey had ambitions to rule the world that were percieved as an actual possibility;

What do you mean at the time of the Caliphate? Subjugating the entire world via the imposition of Sharia is still the overriding highest mandate of Islam, and every devout Muslim works towards that end or they are not devout.

now they are a backwater whose chief exports are oil and surplus population.

Uhm...don't look now but those surplus Muslim populations are actually Muslims participating in the form of non-violent stealth-jihad known as demographic conquest, as the majority of Muslim immigrants the world over don't ever assimilate and integrate. Instead, when the percentage of the population of Muslims becomes sufficient, they form Muslim no-go zones ruled by Sharia and in direct contravention to the laws of the states in which they reside. There ultimate goal is to replace our constitutions with the Koran and our rule of law with Sharia.

Clearly some long for the days of their greatness, feel offended by the primacy of the West, and hear the siren-song of radicalism, of Islamofascism, as a solution.

There is no radicalism or extremism except in the context that Islam itself is a very radical and extreme ideology that uses religion as a mask to hide behind, and everyone that adheres to this radical and extremist ideology is a radical and extremist. Which means that practically every Muslim, if they are indeed devout, are radicals and extremists. However, don't take my word for it, educate yourself by studying the contents of the Koran, Hadith, and Sira and also learn how they are traditionally interpreted and understood by the vast majority of Muslims.

The political correct multicultural model in vogue today whereby Islam is a so-called Religion of Peace™ and the vast overwhelming majority of Muslims are peaceful and moderate is demonstrably false, and to realize that fact all anyone has to do is take a good open-minded look around the world to recognize that reality.

I mean maybe with the exception of the former Soviet states where Islam was long suppressed, in every Muslim country in the world today where the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world live, non-Muslims of all stripes as a rule are systematically persecuted, discriminated against, and often violently oppressed. If Islam is truly a Religion of Peace™ and the vast overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world are truly peaceful and moderate, why then are so many non-Muslims treated so horribly and brutally throughout the Islamic world?

I mean look inside Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Nigeria, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum and tell me what you see. How many Christian churches were burned in Malaysia in the past month? How about in so-called moderate Indonesia?

In addition, can anyone point to a single non-Muslim country anywhere in the world where mass Muslim immigration has occurred where the majority of Muslims have assimilated and integrated and matriculated into becoming productive and contributing citizens of their newly adopted country?

The harsh reality is the majority of Muslims don't assimilate and integrate. Instead, when the percentage of the population of Muslims becomes high enough, they form Muslim no-go zones ruled by Sharia, as their sole purpose for migrating to the West was to fulfill their holy obligation for jihad.

While it is true that some Muslims do elect to become terrorists and participate in violent-jihad, the vast overwhelming majority of Muslims, on the other hand, for obvious reasons choose instead to participate in non-violent stealth forms of Jihad, with demographic conquest for the spread of Islam being one of the most prevalent forms of non-violent stealth-jihad in vogue today.

Further, take a look around the Islamic world, especially at where the borders of the Islamic world comes into contact with the non-Islamic world and tell me what do you see? If you are looking correctly and aren't ideologically blind, you will see Muslims pursuing jihad against non-Muslims while at the same time always presenting themselves as the victims in every case, and it is happening all over the world and not just against the Israelis, but in Mumbai, Kashmir, Jammu, Thailand, The Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, China, Chechnya, Kosovo, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, throughout the Middle East, Sudan, North Africa, Nigeria, the Horn of Africa. Not to mention the cold stealth jihads also taking place throughout Western Europe, Russia, South America, The USA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

Moreover, if Muslims were truly interested in stopping all of the violence and terrorism committed in the name of Islam, then why all the silence in response to all of the Islamic motivated terrorist attacks? I mean if it involved any other people, they would be publicly teaching against the jihad ideology, but where are the Muslims?

Not to mention look what happens anytime a public official criticizes Islam, the Muslims see it as insults and worldwide riots inevitably ensue with the resulting consequence of non-Muslim kafir infidels being killed.

Meanwhile, the public official involved gets charged with hate crimes by useful-idiot delusional leftists willing to do the Muslims bidding for them like what is happening in the Netherlands today against Dutch MP Geert Wilders.

I mean just last month didn't another Muslim try again to kill the creator of the Muslim cartoons that were run by the Danish newspaper? None of this is happening by accident, as it is all a very carefully orchestrated stealth-jihad designed to silence any and all opposition through intimidation, and if they are successful in silencing all opposition, then the door will swing wide open for Islamization because it will then become literally impossible to defend ourselves from this stealth-jihad within our midst.

Indeed, the single biggest obstacle today standing in the way of us protecting ourselves from Islam is this insane political correct multicultural model whereby Islam is a Religion of Peace™ and the vast overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful and moderate. If we can ever break the shackles of this multicultural insanity, then we can begin to take steps necessary to protect ourselves, but until this insane multicultural grip is broken, we will continue to spin our wheels, while the Muslims will continue to pursue their hot and cold jihads full steam ahead with impunity.

For instance, why are we still spinning our wheels pursing silly fantasy based nation building missions in both Iraq and Afghanistan in an attempt to lift up Muslims and win their hearts and minds? I mean it is literally impossible to win the hearts and minds of Muslims because they are obligated to hate our guts no matter what we do. Not to mention that poverty and despair have nothing whatsoever to do with Islamic motivated violence and terrorism. Was the Christmas terrorist a poverty stricken Muslim steeped in despair? How about the Fort Hood terrorist? We are simply shooting ourselves in the foot and it is all because of this silly political correct multicultural paradigm.
 
You are ignorantly and naively misapplying your Westernized view of the world to Muslims and making silly, stupid, and asinine assumptions that Muslims somehow desire and value the same things that we in the West do. It's past time for you to take off your rose colored glasses and study Islam and Islamic civilization, as poverty and despair has nothing whatsoever to do with the way Muslims act today. As a matter of fact, they hate and despise the materialism of the West and believe it is decadent!


You are the one "ignorantly and naively misapplying" your bigoted views of Muslims and "making silly, stupid, and asinine assumptions" about me, what my views are and where I'm from. Idiot. When have I ever said Muslims "somehow desire and value the same things that we in the West do"? They might want security that comes with peace and non-corrupt government, a sense of self-worth that comes from being employed and able to support their family, like nearly everyone on the planet but their value are apparently different, as my values are different from yours.



Moreover, if poverty really were the root cause of all the violence as so many on the left insist, then why is it only Muslims in the world today waging jihad and committing Islamic motivated violence?

Only Muslims commit "Islamic motivated violence", because only people who practice Islam are Muslims. Why the hell would a Buddhist or a Jew want to commit "Islamic motivated violence"? :roll:


What about all the other equally poverty stricken people in the world? Indeed, there absence is more than a little conspicuous if you remove the blinders and open up your eyes.

LT just pointed out that not everywhere is as peaceful as it seems.

And you might ask yourself the reverse question: If Islam is the single reason for the violence, why are not all Muslims up in arms or acting as suicide bombers. Ever been to Malaysia, Brunei etc? Why are these relatively prosperous, Muslim countries peaceful?
 
....
They might want security that comes with peace and non-corrupt government, a sense of self-worth that comes from being employed and able to support their family, like nearly everyone on the planet but their value are apparently different, as my values are different from yours.
They might.. then again, many might want more than that.
Have you noticed any problems worldwide?

Only Muslims commit "Islamic motivated violence", because only people who practice Islam are Muslims. Why the hell would a Buddhist or a Jew want to commit "Islamic motivated violence"? :roll:
Clearly he meant Violence committed in the name of their Respective religions.
Since you couldn't really answer his Cogent point, you made a disingenuous mockery of it.

And you might ask yourself the reverse question: If Islam is the single reason for the violence, why are not all Muslims up in arms or acting as suicide bombers. Ever been to Malaysia, Brunei etc? Why are these relatively prosperous, Muslim countries peaceful?
Brunei is an Oil Rich Duchy with 400,000 people.
Southeast Asian Islam is generally a more Diluted flavor of Islam, sometimes incorporating pre-Islamic practice.
Though it also/still has some stellar examples of Islamic violence. (East Timor/Sulawesi/Ambon/Bali etc in Indonesia; the current South Thailand Muslim insurrection killing more than the I-P conflict; Moro in philippines, etc, etc)
Not really a good sample.
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They might.. then again, many might want more than that.

And did I say anything differently?

Have you noticed any problems worldwide?

Be particular, what are you asking?

Clearly he meant Violence committed in the name of their Respective religions.
Since you couldn't really answer his Cogent point, you made a disingenuous mockery of it.

I made a very genuine mockery of it. I sincerely think it was a stupid comment to make. If he can't get himself across clearly, then that's his problem. I'm not his mommy, here to clean up his logical lapses.


Brunei is an Oil Rich Duchy with 400,000 people.
Southeast Asian Islam is generally a more Diluted flavor of Islam, sometimes incorporating pre-Islamic practice.
Though it also/still has some stellar examples of Islamic violence. (East Timor/Sulawesi/Ambon/Bali etc in Indonesia; the current South Thailand Muslim insurrection killing more than the I-P conflict; Moro in philippines, etc, etc)
Not really a good sample.
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Bull****. If we can provide you with examples of Muslim countries that are peaceful, you say that's because it's not Islam ("Diluted flavor of Islam" you say). It's impossible to argue against such logical fallacy. You obviously equate Islam with violence even before the jury's out.

Brunei, nevertheless is still a Muslin country that is peaceful. That it's a small country simply support the point that larger population and poverty is a contributing factory to violence.

East Timor is a case of a fight for independence. Are you going to argue that the American civil war was about Christianity being a violent religion? Bali is for the most parts a peaceful city, just because terrorists attack it doesn't make it a Muslim terrorist stronghold.

The authority in Thailand subject the Muslims to harsher treatment causing them to fight even harder. Ever been to that part of SEA? Muslims aren't exactly treated equally as the Buddhists. It has something to do with this thing called discrimination.

The Philippines I accept is a place where the Muslim south is really fighting hard for their independence, but let me contrast that with Sri Lanka. The Tamil Tigers were pretty violent themselves and yet they are not Muslims, why is that?

There's no good example because you obviously won't/can't look past your prejudice.
 
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And did I say anything differently?
You inferred such.

Be particular, what are you asking?
Have you noticed the inordinate Violence by Muslims Worldwide from Mauritania to Mindinao.
And not just terrorism, but Persecution by Muslim Nayions of their minorities and War with their neighbors.

Is that specific enough? OR will you try yet more disingenous junk as reply?

I made a very genuine mockery of it. I sincerely think it was a stupid comment to make. If he can't get himself across clearly, then that's his problem. I'm not his mommy, here to clean up his logical lapses.
His point still UNANSWERED by you. The amount or violence comnmitted in the Name of Islam, that is relatively Nil in Christianity and Judaism.
So you can't just hide behing the 'mockery' semantics..
Let's see if you can FINALLY reply to His point you obfusacte.

Bull****. If we can provide you with examples of Muslim countries that are peaceful, you say that's because it's not Islam ("Diluted flavor of Islam" you say). It's impossible to argue against such logical fallacy. You obviously equate Islam with violence even before the jury's out.

Brunei, nevertheless is still a Muslin country that is peaceful. That it's a small country simply support the point that larger population and poverty is a contributing factory to violence.
No It's you who tried Fallacious reaoning. Outrageoulsy so.
Presenting TWO of 57 Muslim nations.. and one a Tiny Oil Rich Kingdom.
East Timor.....

The authority in Thailand....

The Philippines.....

There's no good example because you obviously won't/can't look past your prejudice.
Inaccurate Excuses one and all. There's plenty of pure Blatant anti-Muslim violence in those three.

My 'Prejudice', is a Quantatively demonstrable Fact. PC in response, just the other side of prejudice.. and more dangerous.

So Already outnumbered (even using Brunei :^)).. let's go for some broader samples:


Islamic NATIONS Slaughter, Enslave Christians

December 16, 2001
by Tom Barrett

THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED. Yet in 83% of nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is systematic government persecution of Christians.
(See "Religious Freedom in the Majority Islamic Countries" in the Resources section below.) This persecution includes imposing the death penalty for sharing the Christian faith with a Muslim; national laws prohibiting conversion from Islam to Christianity; destruction of churches; and murder or expulsion of Christian missionaries. Even in the few predominantly Muslim countries where the government does not openly participate in the persecution, it ignores and even encourages illegal persecution by Muslims against Christians.

I spent hours going through the well-documented profiles of the 46 countries listed in the report mentioned above. Of these, 6 did not have significant Muslim populations. Of the 39 with a strong Muslim majority, only seven could be considered to be either neutral or tolerant toward their Christian minorities....

http://www.conservativetruth.org/archives/tombarrett/12-16-01.shtml

Extra - WSJ.com

Islam Can't Escape Blame
MY religion has strayed far since its golden age.

by AMIR TAHERI
October 27, 2001
Wall Street Journal

[.............]
There is more. All but one of the world's remaining military regimes are in Muslim countries. With the exception of Turkey and Bangladesh, there are no real elections in any Muslim country. Of the current 30 active conflicts in the world no fewer than 28 concern Muslim governments and/or communities.
Two-thirds of the world's political prisoners are held in Muslim countries, which also carry out 80% of all executions each year.

[................]
Am I Clear now about Inordinate Violence?

Or I can cite another 20 all by myself which you can try and RATIONALIZE Away.. too.
Just like the last three, only self-defeating by the very excuses you'd have to use in Each.
"Oh but this one is really.... economic, er yeah, er... political, er not really to do with Islam"
LOL.
 
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Moderator's Warning:
STOP the personal attacks NOW.
 
You inferred such.

No. I didn't. You read into my post what I've not written, nor intended. As I said to everyone else, don't make assumptions, ask, otherwise you'll look like an arse.

<<<<<See over there, that's what you look like right now.

Have you noticed the inordinate Violence by Muslims Worldwide from Mauritania to Mindinao.
And not just terrorism, but Persecution by Muslim Nayions of their minorities and War with their neighbors.

Is that specific enough? OR will you try yet more disingenous junk as reply?

No it's not specific enough. Mindanao I've already dealt with. If you want to be specific, you gotta do better than "Muslim Nations". :roll:

Bring up the specific conflict and we'll see whether that is because of Islam alone or because there are other reasons which you obviously can't be trusted to bring up for an honest and open discussion. You had to delete part of my post because you can't deal with them.

His point still UNANSWERED by you. The amount or violence comnmitted in the Name of Islam, that is relatively Nil in Christianity and Judaism.
So you can't just hide behing the 'mockery' semantics..
Let's see if you can FINALLY reply to His point you obfusacte.

And if you were to look at the average purchasing power, rate of unemployment, standard of living etc of the two groups VS the Muslims countries, what do you think you will find?

And it's not nil in Christianity and Judaism. In Algeria, Christian engage in the fighting too. And are you seriously forgetting the Israel-Palestinian conflict? The Jewish people is fighting for the right to their Jewish statehood.

When he has a point worth addressing I'll address them. In the mean time, I'll do as I damn well please (though I see CC is standing over us with his rod :lol:).

No It's you who tried Fallacious reaoning. Outrageoulsy so.
Presenting TWO of 57 Muslim nations.. and one a Tiny Oil Rich Kingdom.
Inaccurate Excuses one and all. There's plenty of pure Blatant anti-Muslim violence in those three.

Which three? Calm down and read and write properly, or were your intent to contradict yourself?


My 'Prejudice', is a Quantatively demonstrable Fact. PC in response, just the other side of prejudice.. and more dangerous.


That's the thing, people who claim that Islam is the root of the violence have never been able to provide anything that approached "quantitatively demonstrable". Take a look at all the Muslim countries, very few have endorse or have the vast majority of their population engage in violence. If they were, there would be even more blood shed. Palestine, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq can be said to be stuck in a very violence phase, but Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq are an in/direct result of the US's anti-terror war, and Somalia and Sudan are basket cases. The rest of the countries may have culturally and politically objectionable practice to you, but for the most part people live in more or less in peace. Let's take the case of Iraq, if most Muslim Iraqis are violent individuals who want to kill infidels, a few hundred thousand US soldiers are not going to stop them. But obviously, they want just to live a peaceful live much as others in a country with a different religion. Take Egypt, if most of the Muslims were set against driving out and killing all the Coptic Christians they wouldn't be able to live there still after thousands of years, You people confuse the outliers for the masses. The problem is that you simply don't understand what statistics are made of.


So Already outnumbered (even using Brunei :^)).. let's go for some broader samples:



Extra - WSJ.com

Am I Clear now about Inordinate Violence?


No, you're not. What do I do with a scaremonger site called "Conservative Truth" which claimed:

conservativethruth.com said:
The most urgent situation demanding our attention today is in Indonesia, which has the largest Muslim population of any non-Arab country. There Islamic fundamentalists have promised a bloodbath of Christians before Christmas. This is no idle threat; in 1996 Islamic fundamentalists slaughtered 3,000 Christians in East Timor. More recently, a group called Laskar Jihad, which hails Osama bin Laden as its hero, slaughtered thousands of Christians with the help of government troops. (See "Christians Terrorized in Muslim Indonesia" in the Resources section.) An Indonesian military officer is quoted as saying that the government has the power to stop the Jihad, but government officials "all the way to the top" profit from it. Their goal is nothing less than to exterminate every Christian in Indonesia or force them to leave. According to Steven Snyder, the president of International Christian Concern who visited Indonesia in November, about 15,000 Laskar Jihad troops equipped with AK-47 assault rifles, rocket launchers and bulldozers are threatening to kill 50,000 Christians and destroy their homes and churches in the next week.

That was in 2001. Now in 2010. Indonesia has successfully elected its president again. The country is growing, and East Timor is a regconised country of its own. And wait for it....there are still Christians living safely in Indonesia. :shock:


Or I can cite another 20 all by myself which you can try and RATIONALIZE Away.. too.
Just like the last three, only self-defeating by the very excuses you'd have to use in Each.
"Oh but this one is really.... economic, er yeah, er... political, er not really to do with Islam"
LOL.


:doh The point has always been that there are other reasons for the violence. Read the OP. We are not going to suddenly change our tune because you are too blind to see it.
 
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No it's not specific enough. Mindanao I've already dealt with. If you want to be specific, you gotta do better than "Muslim Nations". :roll:

Bring up the specific conflict and we'll see whether that is because of Islam alone or because there are other reasons which you obviously can't be trusted to bring up for an honest and open discussion. You had to delete part of my post because you can't deal with them.
When I bring them up you try and Excuse them away with Ridiculous excuses.

There's a Partial list below which should keep you busy though.
It's length alone however will betray the long list of excuses needed.

Maybe you can Start with the TWO Genocides in Sudan. The First (1983-2003) with a 'civil war' Killing 2,000,000 Christians and animists and displacing Millions more;
The second the more known/trendier Ethno-Religous Darfur, against the Muslim but BlackER Fur people by the more Arabo-Muslim NIF (National Islamic Front)/North.


And if you were to look at the average purchasing power, rate of unemployment, standard of living etc of the two groups VS the Muslims countries, what do you think you will find?

And it's not nil in Christianity and Judaism. In Algeria, Christian engage in the fighting too. And are you seriously forgetting the Israel-Palestinian conflict? The Jewish people is fighting for the right to their Jewish statehood.
And in those two countries.. who are Jews and Christians [coincidentally!] fighting? :^)

Would it be the same group the Hindus are fighing in India and Kashmir? How bout that!

I call it The Long Islamic Frontline.. and it works for ME, not you, to point it those two. Israel being just a tiny overpublicized spot on that line.

mbig said:
No It's you who tried Fallacious reaoning. Outrageoulsy so.
Presenting TWO of 57 Muslim nations.. and one a Tiny Oil Rich Kingdom.
Inaccurate Excuses one and all. There's plenty of pure Blatant anti-Muslim violence in those three.
nonpareil said:
Which three? Calm down and read and write properly, or were your intent to contradict yourself?
The Three I pointed to above.
East Timor, Thailand, philipppines you tried to excuse away



nonpareil said:
Take a look at all the Muslim countries, very few have endorse or have the vast majority of their population engage in violence. If they were, there would be even more blood shed. Palestine, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq can be said to be stuck in a very violence phase, but...
That's 7!
You already beat your own two, Brunei (LOL) and Malaysia.

But even (and here we go!) even in paces like 'moderate' Egypt The Copts are persecuted.
The Bahai's and others in Iran.
Saudi Arabia prohibits all other religions and even discriminates against Shia Muslims.
There's War in the Western Sahara/Mauritania et al.
200,000 have died in the Algerian Civil War.

Sharia Conflict/Muslim Violence in Nigeria.
And Ivory Coast and Chad and have similar but smaller violence.
Ethiopea/Eritrea.
Sudan (above)
Somalia

Azerbijan/Armenia.
The Balkans.
Daghestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia, etc.

India/Pak/Kashmir
I hear Bangladesh having some probs too.

Israel/Palestine
Lebanon is Dar al Harb, with a million Maronites gone.
Christians purged from most of the Muslim/arab world except those mentioned above and they on their way out.
Assad I's various Syrian massacres like Hama (20,000 .. a tough week)

Iran v Iraq and Iraq v Kuwait before us.
Afghanistan, we just Interrupted that one.
Sunni v Shia as we speak, and responsible for Tens of Thousands (if not 100,000+) already.

And lesser known stuff like the Separatist Uighurs in Western China.

those just added of course to the '3' above'
Philippines
Thailand
Indonesia

And Malaysia Is pretty decent but just a few weeks ago...

8 Arrested in Firebombing of Malaysian Churches
By SETH MYDANS
January 20, 2010

BANGKOK — Eight men were arrested on Wednesday in Malaysia in connection with the firebombing of a Pentecostal church last month, one in a series of attacks that has targeted a DOZEN Christian churches, the police said....

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/world/asia/21malay.html

Do a Dozen Mosques get Torched in any Christian or Jewish countries?
And that's your Shining Star.

Just look.. It's there!
And that's by no means a complete list; Just this PM's recall.


No, you're not. What do I do with a scaremonger site called "Conservative Truth" which claimed:

It's got Names and numbers. Call it what you like, but you haven't dented it
, tho Indonesia has improved.
Tho there's still persecution against Christians (and Ethnic Chinese).

And Conspicuously NO Comment from you onm the WSJ article:

mbig

Islam Can't Escape Blame
MY religion has strayed far since its golden age.

by AMIR TAHERI
October 27, 2001
Wall Street Journal

[.............]
There is more. All but one of the world's remaining military regimes are in Muslim countries. With the exception of Turkey and Bangladesh, there are no real elections in any Muslim country. Of the current 30 active conflicts in the world no fewer than 28 concern Muslim governments and/or communities.
Two-thirds of the world's political prisoners are held in Muslim countries, which also carry out 80% of all executions each year.

[................]

nonpareil said:
:doh The point has always been that there are other reasons for the violence. Read the OP. We are not going to suddenly change our tune because you are too blind to see it.
The point being one can always use rationlalization, but the case is Overwhelming and Causation has been shown.
 
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It's no more ludicrous than you ignoring the role that poverty and lack of opportunities play in making these young men more susceptible to the extremist preachings of the terrorists.

the one difficulty that I see with this line of argument is that we see a whole swatch of middle class/upper middle class/upper class men joining/participating/leading these terrorist organizations.

I haven't done one, but I suspect that an analysis of the demographic sof terrorists would show young, male, reasonably well educated (maybe not for the suicide drones, but for everyone else) and in the top 3 quintiles of the population by income.

Not consistent with the poverty as a cause, but entirely consistent with lack of opportunity for status as a cause, no?
 
the one difficulty that I see with this line of argument is that we see a whole swatch of middle class/upper middle class/upper class men joining/participating/leading these terrorist organizations.

I haven't done one, but I suspect that an analysis of the demographic sof terrorists would show young, male, reasonably well educated (maybe not for the suicide drones, but for everyone else) and in the top 3 quintiles of the population by income.

Not consistent with the poverty as a cause, but entirely consistent with lack of opportunity for status as a cause, no?

That is a good point you raise. I think poverty, while not necessarily a direct cause on an individual basis, certainly helps spur radical ideology in general (I'm not just thinking of radical Islamism, but other instances as well). Then after a time when that type of ideology becomes more entrenched in certain sectors of society (even of if those sectors are doing ok financially), middle class and wealthy people can be affected by it.
 
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