Democrats Want To Lower Taxes On The Rich

[jaeger19]

You are comparing apples with oranges.

No I am not... I am using YOUR logic.

Your logic based on what you have said.. you said that because when Californians paid their state taxes.. they could deduct that expense on their federal taxes.. it meant that the federal government was paying those taxes.. and subsidizing California.

IF you are consistent in your logic.. then because I can deduct business expenses from my federal taxes.. it means that if I expand my business and deduct that expense from my federal government.. it means according to you.. that the government paid for that expansion.

So is that what you think?

Because you can't have it both ways logically.. You cannot say that because I pay my state taxes..and get to deduct it from my federal taxes.. it means that the federal government is paying those taxes..

And NOT say that when I expand my business and can deduct that expense on my federal taxes it doesn't mean that the federal government is paying for that expansion.


There simply isn't any way around it.

So which is it Moderate?

 

[Moderate Right]

No I am not... I am using YOUR logic.

Your logic based on what you have said.. you said that because when Californians paid their state taxes.. they could deduct that expense on their federal taxes.. it meant that the federal government was paying those taxes.. and subsidizing California.

IF you are consistent in your logic.. then because I can deduct business expenses from my federal taxes.. it means that if I expand my business and deduct that expense from my federal government.. it means according to you.. that the government paid for that expansion.

So is that what you think?

Because you can't have it both ways logically.. You cannot say that because I pay my state taxes..and get to deduct it from my federal taxes.. it means that the federal government is paying those taxes..

And NOT say that when I expand my business and can deduct that expense on my federal taxes it doesn't mean that the federal government is paying for that expansion.


There simply isn't any way around it.

So which is it Moderate?

Technically, yes, any deduction and any tax credit is subsidized by the federal government.

 

[jaeger19]

Technically, yes, any deduction and any tax credit is subsidized by the federal government.

Wow.. well put yourself down as a liberal then.

You can only believe that.. if you believe that all income is the property of the federal government. And if I get to keep any of it.. or use it for expenses.. it comes from the federal government.

 

[Moderate Right]

Wow.. well put yourself down as a liberal then.

You can only believe that.. if you believe that all income is the property of the federal government. And if I get to keep any of it.. or use it for expenses.. it comes from the federal government.

I didn't say that there shouldn't be any tax deductions or and tax credits, merely that they are both subsidies of the federal government, and also to the state and local governments. Let's just pick one example - exemptions. The federal government subsidizes people and children. They help defray the costs of taking care of yourself and your children by letting you write them off on your taxes.

 

[jaeger19]

I didn't say that there shouldn't be any tax deductions or and tax credits, merely that they are both subsidies of the federal government, and also to the state and local governments. Let's just pick one example - exemptions. The federal government subsidizes people and children. They help defray the costs of taking care of yourself and your children by letting you write them off on your taxes.

Exactly... according to you... and your logic... all income that you earn.. is actually the property of the federal government. Anything you spend on your business.. according to you.. is actually a subsidy from the federal government.

Any money you keep.. well that's again a subsidy of the federal government.

FAce it man.. you have just labeled yourself a raving liberal that believes that the all income is the property of the federal government.

 

[Moderate Right]

Exactly... according to you... and your logic... all income that you earn.. is actually the property of the federal government. Anything you spend on your business.. according to you.. is actually a subsidy from the federal government.

Any money you keep.. well that's again a subsidy of the federal government.

FAce it man.. you have just labeled yourself a raving liberal that believes that the all income is the property of the federal government.

I very clearly said that I was not saying there should be no deductions and no tax credits.

 

[jaeger19]

I very clearly said that I was not saying there should be no deductions and no tax credits.

Yes... you did.. and you ALSO clearly stated that if a person got a deduction on their federal taxes.. say for paying for child care.. or paying for business expenses.. or paying for income taxes... that it was actually the Federal government PAYING for those expenses not the individual. In other words.. that expense was subsidized by the federal government.

In other words.. you just labeled yourself a raving liberal that believes that all income is the property of the federal government.

 

[Moderate Right]

Yes... you did.. and you ALSO clearly stated that if a person got a deduction on their federal taxes.. say for paying for child care.. or paying for business expenses.. or paying for income taxes... that it was actually the Federal government PAYING for those expenses not the individual. In other words.. that expense was subsidized by the federal government.

In other words.. you just labeled yourself a raving liberal that believes that all income is the property of the federal government.

There are people who turn in tax returns and have to pay taxes on 100% of their income, no exemptions, no deductions, no tax credits, no notta. So, that's just a fact. Most all of the tax returns I know of start off with you listing your income total. That's the starting place so, yes, the government asks you to report 100% of all of your income and then they give you various things that they will subsidize through exemptions, deductions, and tax credits.

 

[jaeger19]

There are people who turn in tax returns and have to pay taxes on 100% of their income, no exemptions, no deductions, no tax credits, no notta. So, that's just a fact. Most all of the tax returns I know of start off with you listing your income total. That's the starting place so, yes, the government asks you to report 100% of all of your income and then they give you various things that they will subsidize through exemptions, deductions, and tax credits.

Yep.. so according to your belief.. that income is all the property of the federal government. And anything that you use to say spend on your business..or use to pay for school.. or use to pay medical bills.. or pay the interest on a home loan or a myriad of other things that you deduct from your gross income.. ... is not YOUR money going to pay for that... according to you.. its the governments money.

So when I or you expand your business.. its the government financing it.. not you.

Like I said, change your lean to extremely liberal... because that's your position.

 

[Moderate Right]

Yep.. so according to your belief.. that income is all the property of the federal government. And anything that you use to say spend on your business..or use to pay for school.. or use to pay medical bills.. or pay the interest on a home loan or a myriad of other things that you deduct from your gross income.. ... is not YOUR money going to pay for that... according to you.. its the governments money.

So when I or you expand your business.. its the government financing it.. not you.

Like I said, change your lean to extremely liberal... because that's your position.

I mean that's just the facts. The government requires you to list all of your income on your tax return, it's like line 1. That's where they start, saying that ALL of your income is taxable and then they have other lines down lower to determine how much they will actually take or, conversely, how much they will let you keep. But there is no 100% tax rate that I know of so everyone gets to keep most of the money they earn.

 

[bave]

I mean that's just the facts. The government requires you to list all of your income on your tax return, it's like line 1. That's where they start, saying that ALL of your income is taxable and then they have other lines down lower to determine how much they will actually take or, conversely, how much they will let you keep. But there is no 100% tax rate that I know of so everyone gets to keep most of the money they earn.

I don't believe the bolded is true and it really depends on how you look at it.

For instance, if you are a shareholder in a corporation that has an effective tax rate of 20% which pays you a dividend of $100 ($20 in corp tax), which you then pay 23.8% in federal capital gains tax on the remaining $80 of $19.04, and then $11.20 in state tax (California) you are paying a total of $50.24 in total taxes on a $100 dividend.

Point being, it depends on how you look at it in terms of total taxation. Then you get the whole other side of this where nutjobs start rolling up sales taxes, excise taxes, and every tax along the way to make your actual tax rate something like 85%.

 

[jaeger19]

I mean that's just the facts. The government requires you to list all of your income on your tax return, it's like line 1. That's where they start, saying that ALL of your income is taxable and then they have other lines down lower to determine how much they will actually take or, conversely, how much they will let you keep. But there is no 100% tax rate that I know of so everyone gets to keep most of the money they earn.

So.. that does nothing to change the fact that you consider that anything that I spend on my business.. you consider a subsidy from the federal government because it gets deducted off income.

The only way you can think that.. is if you believe all money is the governments and what I get to deduct for expenses is a "subsidy" from them.

 

[Moderate Right]

So.. that does nothing to change the fact that you consider that anything that I spend on my business.. you consider a subsidy from the federal government because it gets deducted off income.

The only way you can think that.. is if you believe all money is the governments and what I get to deduct for expenses is a "subsidy" from them.

I own my business as well. For the sake of discussion, I would rather just talk about individual income tax returns. Business stuff is a separate can of worms. Maybe that's where we have been disagreeing the most. I'm talking about individual taxes while you seem to be talking about business taxes. The whole thread is about something that only happens on an individual return, that being the 10K cap on SALT.

 

[jaeger19]

I own my business as well. For the sake of discussion, I would rather just talk about individual income tax returns. Business stuff is a separate can of worms. Maybe that's where we have been disagreeing the most. I'm talking about individual taxes while you seem to be talking about business taxes. The whole thread is about something that only happens on an individual return, that being the 10K cap on SALT.

Right.. you would like to talk about individual returns.. because you don't like the idea that when you expand your business and deduct those expenses from your taxes.. its the government subsidizing your expansion.

AS far as individual vs business taxes. I hardly doubt your business is a C corp. Most likely you are either an S corp or a sole proprietorship or an LLC.. which means that your business income and deductions are a pass through to your individual return.

So yes.. in all likelihood.. your business deductions are on your individual return.

Face it dude.. you believe that all income is the property of the government. Change your lean to lefty liberal.

 

[Moderate Right]

Right.. you would like to talk about individual returns.. because you don't like the idea that when you expand your business and deduct those expenses from your taxes.. its the government subsidizing your expansion.

AS far as individual vs business taxes. I hardly doubt your business is a C corp. Most likely you are either an S corp or a sole proprietorship or an LLC.. which means that your business income and deductions are a pass through to your individual return.

So yes.. in all likelihood.. your business deductions are on your individual return.

Face it dude.. you believe that all income is the property of the government. Change your lean to lefty liberal.

Did I say I was a C corp? I don't believe I did but if I did I misspoke. I am an S-Corp. This whole thread is about SALT deductions on individual returns being capped at 10K. I don't really want to get into the weeds. That's for another thread. The 10K cap only hurts the rich. I do pretty well and couldn't even itemize last year because my standard raised to like 24K and that wipes out any chances I had of itemizing.

 

[marke]

So.. that does nothing to change the fact that you consider that anything that I spend on my business.. you consider a subsidy from the federal government because it gets deducted off income.

The only way you can think that.. is if you believe all money is the governments and what I get to deduct for expenses is a "subsidy" from them.

Democrats believe the government owns everything, including the money people earn, and that people should be happy the government allows taxpayers to keep any of it. That was how Hugo Chavez wrecked the Venezuelan economy, by attempting to control all the money he thought belonged to the government.

 

[jaeger19]

Did I say I was a C corp? I don't believe I did but if I did I misspoke. I am an S-Corp. This whole thread is about SALT deductions on individual returns being capped at 10K. I don't really want to get into the weeds. That's for another thread. The 10K cap only hurts the rich. I do pretty well and couldn't even itemize last year because my standard raised to like 24K and that wipes out any chances I had of itemizing.

bingo..if you are an S corp..your business taxes are a pass through which means that your business expenses are deducted on your personal returns. According to your logic. IF SALT is a subsidy because its taken off your federal income...

Then the government is subsidizing your business by allowing your to right off your business expenses. '

That's YOUR logic. And that only works if you believe that government owns your income.... again.. you need to change your lean to ultra liberal.

YOU are the one that threw the debate into the weeds by claiming that deducting your expenses off your income for federal tax purposes meant the federal government was subsidizing that expense.

Sorry man... but you did it to yourself. Now I think you are realizing how absolutely BS your argument has been.

 

[jaeger19]

Democrats believe the government owns everything, including the money people earn, and that people should be happy the government allows taxpayers to keep any of it. That was how Hugo Chavez wrecked the Venezuelan economy, by attempting to control all the money he thought belonged to the government.

Well.. apparently its just not democrats now is it? .. when you have republicans spouting off how deducting state income taxes off your federal return is somehow the federal government SUBSIDIZING the state taxes. And that's how they justify raising taxes on folks in high income tax states. States that for the most part, send more dollars to the federal government than they take in.

Meanwhile their money gets redistributed to generally red states that send less to the federal government than they take in.

 

[bave]

Well.. apparently its just not democrats now is it? .. when you have republicans spouting off how deducting state income taxes off your federal return is somehow the federal government SUBSIDIZING the state taxes. And that's how they justify raising taxes on folks in high income tax states. States that for the most part, send more dollars to the federal government than they take in.

Meanwhile their money gets redistributed to generally red states that send less to the federal government than they take in.

You keep repeating yourself trying to make your narrative come true. As I pointed out before, after you adjust for entitlement payments, payroll taxes, and infrastructure spending it is basically a damn near close wash. More importantly, it is subsidizing them.

I do however find it amusing how you rail against tax games, but claim to be a business owner and CEO of a hospital, which any business in medical lives on tax games like accelerated depreciation, sect 179 pass thru games, etc. Because I am sure your Schedule C is clean as a whistle.....

 

[Moderate Right]

bingo..if you are an S corp..your business taxes are a pass through which means that your business expenses are deducted on your personal returns. According to your logic. IF SALT is a subsidy because its taken off your federal income...

Then the government is subsidizing your business by allowing your to right off your business expenses. '

That's YOUR logic. And that only works if you believe that government owns your income.... again.. you need to change your lean to ultra liberal.

YOU are the one that threw the debate into the weeds by claiming that deducting your expenses off your income for federal tax purposes meant the federal government was subsidizing that expense.

Sorry man... but you did it to yourself. Now I think you are realizing how absolutely BS your argument has been.

Again, you are getting into the weeds. The 10K cap on SALT only effects the rich and it effects them if they live in a blue state or a red state.

 

[bave]

Again, you are getting into the weeds. The 10K cap on SALT only effects the rich and it effects them if they live in a blue state or a red state.

^
Correct.

More importantly, you have to be *extremely* wealthy to get hit badly on this in a net effect. The TJCA had all sorts of other offsets in there that benefited the wealthy. If Jaeger really is a business owner, especially operating on a pass thru basis, then the S179 benefit alone is worth a fortune if done right. Never mind the reduced brackets and increased standard deduction. TJCA reduced my effective rate by ~4%.

 

[Sampson Simpson]

All the Democratic candidates plans are welfare for the rich. They insist that Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are SO poor they can't afford to pay for their employees healthcare, can't afford to pay their employees enough to save for college, can't even afford their own healthcare or to pay for their kids educations.

Democratic Party = Welfare for the richest people on earth.

. WTF do you people think Republicans have done for decades? Who the hell gave away billions for the rich, once again? The republicans. Jesus christ you right winger are the worst ****ing trolls who do nothing but project

 

[bave]

. WTF do you people think Republicans have done for decades? Who the hell gave away billions for the rich, once again? The republicans. Jesus christ you right winger are the worst ****ing trolls who do nothing but project

<sigh>

Compare the tax rates for the rich in the US to what they would be in EU nations. Generally would result in about a 4% increase. Would that make you happy?

Would it also make you happy when the same tax code results in a ~21% tax increase for the middle class and a 18-19% increase for the lower class?

Because that's what it actually looks like.

 

[jaeger19]

You keep repeating yourself trying to make your narrative come true. As I pointed out before, after you adjust for entitlement payments, payroll taxes, and infrastructure spending it is basically a damn near close wash. More importantly, it is subsidizing them.

I do however find it amusing how you rail against tax games, but claim to be a business owner and CEO of a hospital, which any business in medical lives on tax games like accelerated depreciation, sect 179 pass thru games, etc. Because I am sure your Schedule C is clean as a whistle.....

It can only be subsidizing.. if you believe that all income is the property of the federal government.. and if you pay local/state taxes and they are deducted from your federal taxable income.. somehow that would mean that the government is subsidizing the state/local government.

By extension of your logic... Anyone expanding a business.. if they deduct that expense from their federal taxes.. why it means the federal government subsidized that expansion.

I find it amusing that you have zero rebuttal for what I have said.. and your only recourse is to try and attack me personally. Too funny.

 

[jaeger19]

Again, you are getting into the weeds. The 10K cap on SALT only effects the rich and it effects them if they live in a blue state or a red state.

You got into the weeds by claiming that deductions off a federal return meant the government was subsidizing that expense. Don't blame me for proving you wrong and now you are trying to walk it back.